My Hardware Journey So Far: A Formal Introduction

[Fudoh]

I don't really enjoy tweaking settings... I like "zen" and simplicity.

compared to a DVDO Edge, the Framemeister is exactly that. Forget about the profiles or the per signal tweaking. There's hardly more than one setting that makes sense for 240p. Same for 480i. And everything else (basic AR controls, deinterlacing modes, scanlines on/off) is available per discrete buttons on the remote. The FM is much more plug and play than all the discussions or the wiki make you believe. On the DVDOs each single gaming session of mine turns into a picture tweaking marathon. On the FM it's pretty much "turn it on and enjoy".

[kamiboy]

I don't know about that. One of the sources for my distaste of the FM when I owned one was all the tweaking involved.

I have similar hate for tweaking, I prefer electronics to be simple, elegant and just work.

In all the display/hardware combinations I've ever tried my hand at the only thing that ever fit the "turn on and enjoy" moniker was CRT, with actual hardware.

Once you get over the hill of acquiring the right cables, and potential RGB mods there is nothing more to do than enjoy. I occasionally play with colour, contrast and brightness, that is all.

Then again I never cared much about geometry. If you have OCD in regards to that CRT's are bound to drive you round the bend.

[Nug]

Can you post an in game pic of your NEC multisync with the mini slg?

I'm curious as I also have a multisync, but IMO doesn't look good when I use my slg 3000

[tacoguy64]

As for scanlines on a 31Khz monitor, I've heard so many people say it's blasphemy

So many people haven't seen an actual crt pc monitor in so many years they don't even know what they're saying anymore.
(Some haven't even seen one in their whole life ^^)

And most crt that people used to own weren't these high end model crt's that we own now. We gotta remember that most people had cheapo crt tv's and monitors. Hell I don't even remember scanlines all that much. But if I play a 2d game today, I make sure it has scanlines. The mini and other SLG do a fantastic job in that department. I know when I play a game the lines are fake but it doesn't matter because they make the game look good.

[cfx]

.

[RetroGame❤]

Can you post an in game pic of your NEC multisync with the mini slg?
I'm curious as I also have a multisync, but IMO doesn't look good when I use my slg 3000

[Xyga]

As for scanlines on a 31Khz monitor, I've heard so many people say it's blasphemy

So many people haven't seen an actual crt pc monitor in so many years they don't even know what they're saying anymore.
(Some haven't even seen one in their whole life ^^)

And most crt that people used to own weren't these high end model crt's that we own now. We gotta remember that most people had cheapo crt tv's and monitors. Hell I don't even remember scanlines all that much. But if I play a 2d game today, I make sure it has scanlines. The mini and other SLG do a fantastic job in that department. I know when I play a game the lines are fake but it doesn't matter because they make the game look good.

All crt's 'have scanlines', high-end crt monitors and TV's aren't necessary nor absolute references, as long as they're in good shape any model beats flat panels whatever the case.
The broadcast monitor and pro pc crt trend came late, only a few years ago when people finally realized their lcd's are shit for old games and started sniffing around recommendations on forums and blogs. The American crowd in particular then started to eye those used broadcast and pro monitors because unlike Europeans they don't have an easy in-between alternative (scart rgb consumer TV's).
A firm belief then that those were the only right and best displays for old games to be displayed 'as intended' kind of spawned all over the internet 'retro' communities.
But I don't completely agree with it as I don't always find those to be the most likeable, in particular the 'strong scanlined' ones, meaning very strong black lines in-between the actual scanlines, in a brutal fashion.
One who's been seeing and using all kinds of rgb crt's everyday for decades (and didn't stop for like 10 years after buying his first lcd's) will have enough memories of what it was, and stuff like the look of BVM's wasn't the common/standard look of games at all.
High-end broadcast displays are too good sometimes for the kind of sources we're using, to the point I find'em too harsh on the game's art and overall aspect.
'Best' then can be a matter of appreciation, some people like really computer-looking rendering, closing-in with emulation, I don't because I don't like to game using lab instruments.
My favourite type is the oldish warm and smooth, 'fuller' rendering of the pre-digital crt's (both shadow mask or aperture grille), because those looked more 'natural' and analogue~ish the right way.
The high-end pc crt's are another matter, of course those were better than your average cheap model, but quite expensive and definitely not common things found in households. Still, even a cheapo if in good shape will perform better than most flat panel displays when it comes to simulated low-res 'scanlines' emulation, crt is crt, too bad most of the used today are beyond service and repair, save for technician-level amateurs.

[werk91]

Is this the cable you have ? :

Wii-PS3-Cable-Computer-Monitor-Pc

I'm surprised you're getting good results with it as when I was considering it a few years ago I read only terrible reviews by people. I guess CRT is in a class of its own

Yes! Believe it or not... I actually picked up mine for $15 bucks!: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-5-FT-Wii- ... ZX89Uy41sA ....

That's really interesting. I've heard other people have problem with that cable and PS2 before. I wonder if a GBS-8200/8220 scaler will sync with a PS2 and the cable.. The scaler does accept 15Khz technically Any idea if this cable outputs a pure sync signal ? If I can find one cheap I might just get it to try although I doubt I'll get much improvement over my current RGB Scart setup with SyncStrike. (Which I am quite happy with currently)

My Wii has been in its box for a while now but I've been thinking about trying out some VC titles with the Gonbes and SyncStrike. I remember having a lot of issues with some VC games and the Wii2HDMI dongle thingie before.

[FinalBaton]

RetroGame❤, the NEC shots look damn fine

[FinalBaton]

Pretty much how I feel. I was done with XRGBs long before the Mini came out but I hated all the adjusting even on the XRGB-2 and 2plus, and all the incompatibility issues.

At least if you're using a flatscreen, it is maybe worth the effort as it's the only way that's going to look good for 240p games. With CRTs, I decided long ago that I didn't want all the hassle of using extra crap and that I'd much rather just have both a 15kHz and 31kHz CRT. I also never liked the way scanlines look on a PC monitor with how wide and defined they are, and conversely there's so little visible pixel structure in the horizontal direction; it ends up looking to me like sort of a louver effect just placed over the screen. And yes I feel the same way about how it looks with LCDs except there there's not a better option.

I am bugged by geometry issues that are too severe, but it's still a better tradeoff than LCD issues for me personally.

But the main point is, yeah, I want to turn on the monitor, the console, probably adjust size and position a bit for the specific console, and then just play a game. Not have a bunch of settings to have to, or be tempted to, tweak all the time.

This is also how I feel now

I might keep the XRGB-3 to scale my PSP to my CRT though

[tacoguy64]

All crt's 'have scanlines', high-end crt monitors and TV's aren't necessary nor absolute references, as long as they're in good shape any model beats flat panels whatever the case.
The broadcast monitor and pro pc crt trend came late, only a few years ago when people finally realized their lcd's are shit for old games and started sniffing around recommendations on forums and blogs. The American crowd in particular then started to eye those used broadcast and pro monitors because unlike Europeans they don't have an easy in-between alternative (scart rgb consumer TV's).
A firm belief then that those were the only right and best displays for old games to be displayed 'as intended' kind of spawned all over the internet 'retro' communities.
But I don't completely agree with it as I don't always find those to be the most likeable, in particular the 'strong scanlined' ones, meaning very strong black lines in-between the actual scanlines, in a brutal fashion.
One who's been seeing and using all kinds of rgb crt's everyday for decades (and didn't stop for like 10 years after buying his first lcd's) will have enough memories of what it was, and stuff like the look of BVM's wasn't the common/standard look of games at all.
High-end broadcast displays are too good sometimes for the kind of sources we're using, to the point I find'em too harsh on the game's art and overall aspect.
'Best' then can be a matter of appreciation, some people like really computer-looking rendering, closing-in with emulation, I don't because I don't like to game using lab instruments.
My favourite type is the oldish warm and smooth, 'fuller' rendering of the pre-digital crt's (both shadow mask or aperture grille), because those looked more 'natural' and analogue~ish the right way.
The high-end pc crt's are another matter, of course those were better than your average cheap model, but quite expensive and definitely not common things found in households. Still, even a cheapo if in good shape will perform better than most flat panel displays when it comes to simulated low-res 'scanlines' emulation, crt is crt, too bad most of the used today are beyond service and repair, save for technician-level amateurs.

We were pretty starved here in the states when it came to quality consumer crt's. I think the best models we had were the sony wega's which didn't show up to the late 90s. And even those tv's had a component connection which I think no console took advantage of that until the PS2 came out. And by then people were starting to move onto lcd/plasma displays.

I remember going to a tech forum back in the mid 2000's and thinking how stupid these people are for hanging onto their crt's instead of going lcd for pc gaming. There were debates even back then on which one was better. By that time I had already ditched crt in favor of lcd. I really thought that lcd's were superior in almost every way. I mean they did have their physical advantages that they still have today. And the games did appear to look sharper to me, but aside from that I couldn't have been more wrong. There was a reason why all pro pc gamers back then all gamed on crt's.

I have seen and owned many crt's since the time I gotten back in retro gaming but I don't think I ever seen (or probably don't remember) crt's like you have described. Would arcade monitors be closer to what you are describing? All the 15khz monitors I currently own have strong scanlines which I have found very pleasing to the eyes. I have to disagree with pro model crt's for being too good. For me, too much of a good thing is a really good thing. I like the high quality pictures I get from them and the thick scanlines. Now mind you, I did take a break from 2d gaming on crt monitors for about 15 years before I got back into them

[Xyga]

Would arcade monitors be closer to what you are describing?

Yup. This is basically what European consumer scart rgb crt tv's were, except for the I/O electronics properties and the absence of true multisync models.

Not so long ago someone made a comment about his first time playing on a japanese candy cab sporting your usual Toshiba/Nanao, IIRC he found the picture too 'soft' because he was already used to Sony PVM or even BVM (I can't find the post) before even actually experiencing the 'real deal'.

But this is what I usually mean to people linving in the Americas: the high-end broadcast monitors you're hunting/playing on can sametimes be quite diffrent from arcade's or euro rgb consumer sets, they're indeed technically superior displays but I'm always having a hard time explaining why I wouldn't call those the 'genuine' stuff.
I'm okay with some PVM's I've seen at people's places, but some BVM's are too extreme for me, too far from what I've been used to play on most of my 'gamer's life' (the rgb crt experience for me started in the arcades during the 80's, then from around 1990 with consoles).

[FinalBaton]

The broadcast monitor and pro pc crt trend came late, only a few years ago when people finally realized their lcd's are shit for old games and started sniffing around recommendations on forums and blogs. The American crowd in particular then started to eye those used broadcast and pro monitors because unlike Europeans they don't have an easy in-between alternative (scart rgb consumer TV's).
A firm belief then that those were the only right and best displays for old games to be displayed 'as intended' kind of spawned all over the internet 'retro' communities.

Thankfully for us in north america we can now(thanks to RGB SCART to YUV transcoders) take advantage of some excellent consumer CRTs that, ironically, weren't released in Europe. Now that's some interesting twist right there!

For 15 kHz, the Sony Trinitron/Wega KV-xxFV300 and FV310

And for 31 kHz and above, Sony's Super Fine Pitch Wega models, witch output native 480p and 720p, and have great vertical resolution and colors.

But we've only been able to take advantage of them recently... back then we got shafted pretty bad with no connection on CRTs to take advantage of RGB signals from consoles. There was S-Video at least. But I'll be honest : when I was young I didn't now a thing about wich was the best signal available for each console. I played all of them in composite

[Xyga]

^ yes, this x100!

I'm sure coming from broadcast many would feel a 15khz wega + transcoder is a downgrade, but that's something to have an experience with at least once I believe.
This has been possible for many years already but for some reason the broadcast and scalers trend caught first and almost completely overshadowed that 'alternative'.
Just imagine 'Murica people: there are still tons of 15khz wegas crying as they're dying alone in some abandoned warehouse/dump.

[FinalBaton]

Would arcade monitors be closer to what you are describing?

Yup. This is basically what European consumer scart rgb crt tv's were, except for the I/O electronics properties and the absence of true multisync models.

Not so long ago someone made a comment about his first time playing on a japanese candy cab sporting your usual Toshiba/Nanao, IIRC he found the picture too 'soft' because he was already used to Sony PVM or even BVM (I can't find the post) before even actually experiencing the 'real deal'.

But this is what I usually mean to people linving in the Americas: the high-end broadcast monitors you're hunting/playing on can sametimes be quite diffrent from arcade's or euro rgb consumer sets, they're indeed technically superior displays but I'm always having a hard time explaining why I wouldn't call those the 'genuine' stuff.
I'm okay with some PVM's I've seen at people's places, but some BVM's are too extreme for me, too far from what I've been used to play on most of my 'gamer's life' (the rgb crt experience for me started in the arcades during the 80's, then from around 1990 with consoles).

I like the look of arcade monitors a lot. And Nissling's pic of his shadowmask CRT(Samsung I think) he posted in the "Fudoh's ode..." thread looks awesome to me. It looks close to an arcade monitor.

I get what you're saying about PVM/BVMs. Their picture is so crisp and revealing that it ends up looking "clinical" a bit. Maybe too crisp for some for a source like videogames (by crisp I mean : every color and sprite is so well detached from each other, it feels like it should sometime blend together a bit more)

[RetroGame❤]

But I don't completely agree with it as I don't always find those to be the most likeable, in particular the 'strong scanlined' ones, meaning very strong black lines in-between the actual scanlines, in a brutal fashion.... My favourite type is the oldish warm and smooth, 'fuller' rendering of the pre-digital crt's (both shadow mask or aperture grille), because those looked more 'natural' and analogue~ish the right way.

I absolutely agree! For me, I'm not seeking out huge fatty scanlines like they're some kind of holy grail... Basically, I just want my 240 line games to display in 240 lines, and I want my 480 line games to display in 480 lines, and I wouldn't mind if they were nice and crisp while they're at it... That is why I'm not interested in scaling images, even on the massive NEC CRT that can handle some killer high resolutions. I agree that the best (or perhaps simplest) way to get 240p is with a 15Khz CRT, (that's not really debatable) but where 15Khz displays can't handle 31Khz material, 31Khz displays CAN go the other way with the help of line doubling & line cancelling (scanline overlay). That means it does everything I need it to, and makes a smaller footprint in my studio...

[FinalBaton]

^ yes, this x100!

I'm sure coming from broadcast many would feel a 15khz wega + transcoder is a downgrade, but that's something to have an experience with at least once I believe.
This has been possible for many years already but for some reason the broadcast and scalers trend caught first and almost completely overshadowed that 'alternative'.
Just imagine 'Murica people: there are still tons of 15khz wegas crying as they're dying alone in some abandoned warehouse/dump.

True story : the other day I saw an FV300 at the nearby recycling center, and it made me sad. Can't believe I am moved by a piece of electronic, lol

I hate seeing crts getting trashed!

[RetroGame❤]

That's really interesting. I've heard other people have problem with that cable and PS2 before. I wonder if a GBS-8200/8220 scaler will sync with a PS2 and the cable.. The scaler does accept 15Khz technically Any idea if this cable outputs a pure sync signal ? If I can find one cheap I might just get it to try although I doubt I'll get much improvement over my current RGB Scart setup with SyncStrike. (Which I am quite happy with currently)

My Wii has been in its box for a while now but I've been thinking about trying out some VC titles with the Gonbes and SyncStrike. I remember having a lot of issues with some VC games and the Wii2HDMI dongle thingie before.

Here are some screenshots of the $15 Hyperkin Wii to VGA Cable (YPbPr to VGA transcoder) connected to the 22" NEC MultiSync FE1250+, running a few Virtual Console games. Please note that these are all 240p titles that are being scaled to 480p by the Wii's internal scaler (And the Wii has to be in 480p mode for a 31Khz display to sync to this cable directly. That means that, while they look pretty sharp, they would look even better if I ran them into a 15Khz monitor or a VGA line doubler (neither of which I have at the moment). Also, I took these pics with my cell phone, so... yeah... My cell phone can't quite see the way my eyes can...

(The scanlines that appear in a few of the images are simply 31Khz scanlines from displaying a 480p image on a large CRT. I've not had any success using an SLG, most likely due to the reason Crafty+Mech cited above. However, I imagine the SLG would work fine using this cable with an XRGB unit...)

[RetroGame❤]

True story : the other day I saw an FV300 at the nearby recycling center, and it made me sad. Can't believe I am moved by a piece of electronic, lol

I hate seeing crts getting trashed!

I feel the same way too! It makes me sick to my stomach to see piles of CRTs being scrapped...
Imagine if everyone decided that vinyl records simply took up too much space to justify their existence, and all the vinyl records in the world were to be melted down...

The only difference in this situation is that later, after a change of heart, people could easily start producing vinyl records again.
That is not the case with CRTs. Considering the cost and complexity of manufacturing, I doubt they will ever be produced again in any capacity.
Which means there goes this beautiful analog technology that stands tall in the history books, not to mention our collective youth, and it's going extinct.

[FinalBaton]

^ yes, this x100!

I'm sure coming from broadcast many would feel a 15khz wega + transcoder is a downgrade, but that's something to have an experience with at least once I believe.
This has been possible for many years already but for some reason the broadcast and scalers trend caught first and almost completely overshadowed that 'alternative'.
Just imagine 'Murica people: there are still tons of 15khz wegas crying as they're dying alone in some abandoned warehouse/dump.

I'm actually awaiting the delivery of a brodcast monitor to my house : but it's a shadowmask one!
So I think this will be a very interesting compromise : yes it has a pretty high vertical resolution, but since the screen is huge, it should look a bit coarse (wich will help make it look a bit arcady). And the shadowmask of course is what is used in arcade monitors as well.

So it should have an image that "blends together" a bit compared to an aperture grill broadcast monitor.

But I still think that a top consumer CRT is a great option

[Xyga]

Well yeah of course I'm not dismissing broadcast monitors as a whole, I definitely haven't seen everything, but I've seen some really sexy shit.
That goes from barely superior to consumer sets, to almost alien-looking ones though, in terms of rendering I mean.

[FinalBaton]

Like I said : I like a good consumer wega.
I only went the monitor route because I am curious about all things CRT and I wanted to experience this type of monitor for myself.

My fv300 gives a totally satisfying picture to my eye. It's a blast to play on.

[RetroGame❤]

Well yeah of course I'm not dismissing broadcast monitors as a whole...

Xyga, it sounds like what you mean is that it's become annoying to hear certain enthusiasts claim that a BVM is "the way it's meant to be played", when in reality NO ONE grew up playing their games this way, save for maybe a security guard who worked the night shift at a television studio...

I grew up playing through RF Modulators, and I was BLOWN AWAY by the SNES composite cables when I was 8 or 9 years old...

In the end, if a BVM is what someone prefers, and they've developed a taste for huge overstated scanlines (and a drastically darkened image), then that is perfectly fine. It just makes about as much sense saying that LCDs are the way classic games were meant to be played...

[RetroGame❤]

I'm actually awaiting the delivery of a brodcast monitor to my house : but it's a shadowmask one!

I would LOVE to see some screenshots or video of it in action when you've got it all set up!

[Fudoh]

The scanlines that appear in a few of the images are simply 31Khz scanlines from displaying a 480p image on a large CRT. I've not had any success using an SLG, most likely due to the reason Crafty+Mech cited above

yes, that'a sync polarity issue. If you ever need to change that, the Extron RGB interfaces can do that as well.

[RetroGame❤]

I remember having a lot of issues with some VC games and the Wii2HDMI dongle thingie before.

That might be an issue with whatever display you were using... I have a Wii2HDMI dongle (I think it's a Rocketfish brand). Anyway, it doesn't do any scaling or anything. I believe it just converts the component video signal to HDMI at 480i or 480p (whatever you have the Wii set to). On an LCD or Plasma I find it no better or worse than just running component cables directly (so I suppose it's marketed for displays without component input...

If one used it with a Framemeister, and the D-Terminal was already occupied, the Wii could be sent through HDMI (if you didn't have a component switch)
Other than that, there's not much point to it, but I'm not sure why you would have experienced problems with it...

[RetroGame❤]

The scanlines that appear in a few of the images are simply 31Khz scanlines from displaying a 480p image on a large CRT. I've not had any success using an SLG, most likely due to the reason Crafty+Mech cited above

yes, that'a sync polarity issue. If you ever need to change that, the Extron RGB interfaces can do that as well.

Excellent! Fudoh, can you recommend a specific unit on the lower end of the price scale that will get the job done?

[FinalBaton]

I would LOVE to see some screenshots or video of it in action when you've got it all set up!

Will do!

[Xyga]

Well yeah of course I'm not dismissing broadcast monitors as a whole...

Xyga, it sounds like what you mean is that it's become annoying to hear certain enthusiasts claim that a BVM is "the way it's meant to be played", when in reality NO ONE grew up playing their games this way, save for maybe a security guard who worked the night shift at a television studio...

I grew up playing through RF Modulators, and I was BLOWN AWAY by the SNES composite cables when I was 8 or 9 years old...

In the end, if a BVM is what someone prefers, and they've developed a taste for huge overstated scanlines (and a drastically darkened image), then that is perfectly fine. It just makes about as much sense saying that LCDs are the way classic games were meant to be played...

Why yeah of course it's a matter of taste and what displays people have been used to play on.
Also you made me remember about those MD/Gen games for instance, that took advantage of some composite color bleeding effects, some people go for the best possible composite output specifically for that reason, which makes sense.
There's no 'absolute' for display quality, but yes indeed it's sometimes a bit annoying to have that feeling that an ever-growing number of players around the world think of high-end broadcast monitors as the next best thing after Yagawa.

[FinalBaton]

Why yeah of course it's a matter of taste and what displays people have been used to play on.
Also you made me remember about those MD/Gen games for instance, that took advantage of some composite color bleeding effects, some people go for the best possible composite output specifically for that reason, which makes sense.
There's no 'absolute' for display quality, but yes indeed it's sometimes a bit annoying to have that feeling that an ever-growing number of players around the world think of high-end broadcast monitors as the next best thing after Yagawa.

Well we have to be consistent
If we're to say "game with what you like", then we have to respect people who like high-end broadcast monitors too.