Any thoughts on this 1080p arcade panel

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Hoagtech
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Any thoughts on this 1080p arcade panel

Post by Hoagtech »

I have been thinking of replacing all of my monitors to lower input devices. My Panasonic doesn't do my MINI justice because of its intense image processing and high input lag and high gr to gr response time combined.

So when I was looking for a replacement I noticed the new Sony TV's were getting worse than their last years "KDL" models. So my thought was if I used the largest available arcade Lcd panel (42") by a reliable brand "Wells Gardner" I would be able to squash his issue once and for all. It doesn't list its input lag but it's gray to gray is 6 ms :P

I want to make sure I will not be losing any fidelity when going HDMI to DVI As it only supports DVI and VGA.

Link to product: https://na.suzohapp.com/products/monitors/49-4259-00

My question is has anyone used one of these panels before? I am not worried about legacy content as I am getting a tri mode Crt to handle everything else.
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Re: Any thoughts on this 1080p arcade panel

Post by cfx »

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Re: Any thoughts on this 1080p arcade panel

Post by Xyga »

Agreed, I've never seen any proof these 'HD candy cabs LCDs', included or spare, were any good in terms of response and lag.
As usual several individuals on more than one arcade community just assume the displays have been picked by the cab's assemblers because they're fit for the 'arcade job', but that's just wishful thinking IMHO.
I've even seen some cabs delivered with what seemed to be very average frameless 32" 720p or 1080p TV's, and a cheap Wei-Ya scaler shoved inside for non-HD hardwares.
Pretty sucky considering even the cheap chinese knockoffs are quite expensive, in my eyes those cabs are just expensive furniture because the displays and scalers they go with are nothing special.
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Re: Any thoughts on this 1080p arcade panel

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Well thanks for your answers guys. But all I'm hearing from you guys is that no information is available. Wells Gardner has been in the arcade and casino hardware business for a long time. I'm not sure if it would be in the same category as "Chinese candy cabs" as I am quite certain those are close to fake and made to rob you of 750 bucks. This panel itself is 42" and has a response time of 6ms. This response time has nothing to do in input lag but when I was comparing input lag 4k and 1080 TVs on the put lag database I noticed most or all TVs over 27" had a response time of over 12 ms.

So if I were to buy a 1080p TV for tournament fighting and 1080p content only. Which model would you reccomend? Also keep in mind the top performers in lag input cost over 2k. This is only 620 bucks and for some reason I am led to believe it would beat the lag input of any other TV because of its ultra low response time. I want to buy a 1080p or 4k panel just for shooters and fighters and only 1080p content (a little 720p for widescreen too) where should I look guys?
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Re: Any thoughts on this 1080p arcade panel

Post by Xyga »

This is a common misconception.
Panel response time and input lag have almost no relationship, you can have a display with 2ms response and 50ms lag, or 20ms response and 5ms lag for instance.
And no, being called Wells Gardner doesn't guarantee 'arcade performance', you know, all remaining/dying arcade parts manufacturers and suppliers bought cheap frameless displays (made in China anyway) only to offer their customers an alternative, those are cheap TV's only frameless, with no stellar performance that has been proved in any way.
Oh and; price has nothing to do with lag. What 'top performers' are you talking about ? Samsung JU/JS series ? They're not.

Some TV's and monitors on the other hand have been thoroughly tried and tested by actual informed people who used tools and science to make sure of what they have, it's not just faith acquired reading casual advices within so-called competitive communities.
Check websites like hdtvtest.co.uk, avsforum, flatpanelshd, rtings.com, displaylag.com, even CNet test displays for lag, then monitors at tftcentral essentially, or prad.de (german but you can read the figures), or communities like hardforum and wecravegamestoo.

The TV's with the lowest lag ever measured were the Sony W series from 2013 and 2014, unfortunately those models have been discontinued and are now hard to find new, else used.
With a bit of chance you'll find some of the 2014 models new still lying around in old stock, but living in the USA you are at a disadvantage because fewer models were released over there, your best chance is to find either;
42W700B, 50W700B (sold in Canada, used to be available from Best Buy or NCIXUS)
50W800B, 55W800B
55W950B... it gets bigger
Some of those can be found used via Amazon US.
And beware if you see newer models ending in 'C' -> they're not the same, all those have at least 32ms of lag.

The 42" one is the record holder with 14ms total display lag (actual input lag about 6~8ms)
Fudoh here even wrote an excellent review of the 2013 equivalent: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=48662

An alternative would be one of the more common Vizio models that scored almost as low lag as the best 2013~2014 Sony's, check the reviews on Rtings and the requirements to take advantage of it: http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/by-tes ... /input-lag
The M43-C1 is relatively affordable and not too big.
Keep in mind the lag figures they're showing are the total lag, the actual input lag is always a bit lower with varying figures depending on various things.

Now of course you'd have to accept that you've probably read a lot of BS about displays on some other forums, the WG monitors MAY be competent, but again there's no proof of that. Have people at least run some Leo Bodnar lag tests on some of those HD cabs and spare parts LCD's and then we'll talk.
Here I'm showing you actual information with real tests and figures that earned those displays recognition.
Over the years I've seen people enthusiastically fit the crappiest TV's in their VS or Bemani cab setups after reading some idiot saying 'yeah there's no lag at all trust me' on SRK or whatever place, only to find later those were actually displays with way over 1 or 2 frames of delay if not more.

If you take tournament gaming seriously you'll want to buy a PC monitor anyway, many, many 27" have easily about 1/2 a frame of delay if not less, as well as a few select 32".
Check here: http://wecravegamestoo.com/forums/monit ... ssage.html

Faith or science: your choice (your money). :wink:
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Re: Any thoughts on this 1080p arcade panel

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Thanks @Xyga. You sound like the voice in the back of my head telling my I should not buy it. Well anyways. I have been meaning to buy a Leo bodnar tester Image for some time now so I just bought one so I could do a few things: test my crappy Panasonic, test my brothers sharp aquos. And finally see where these "cab" fillers are hitting once and for all. I am going to have to wait to buy the wells Gardner display a few days later because the lag tester is coming from UK.

If my panel does have bad lag input I am just going to return it at a shipping loss and spread the final word about avoiding these arcade shenanigans at all costs.
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Re: Any thoughts on this 1080p arcade panel

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Re: Any thoughts on this 1080p arcade panel

Post by Hoagtech »

cfx wrote:
Hoagtech wrote:This panel itself is 42" and has a response time of 6ms.
You don't know this. It has a spec that says that. Specs can lie. There are various ways to measure response time and thus come up with a number that looks good but is frankly meaningless.

And as Xyga said this has no relationship to input lag anyway.

W-G has been in business a long time, and their reputation was built on their CRTs when they made them themselves in the US. They are still trying to live off that reputation without much left to back it up, their CRTs after outsourcing weren't up to the quality of their old ones, and even those old ones didn't have the picture quality of the monitors used in Japanese candy cabs; the two I owned were certainly disappointing with bad linearity issues, corner convergence problems, not enough range in the centering controls, I could go on.

Besides my own experience, look here to see I'm not just making this up about W-G and their quality issues with their late CRTs:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.p ... 564.0.html
well let's simplify this logic. Are arcade panels and slot machine panels faster than consumer televisions? If the wells Gardner is not sufficient (even though that article was covering digital VGA CRT monitors) are there other arcade panels for places like movie theaters and bars that are available to Purchase?

I read that article by the way and it def took some wind out of my sails. But what options do I have if the old Sony models aren't available and the new TV's from Sony have almost double input lag. Where can I find my needs in a decent size?
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Re: Any thoughts on this 1080p arcade panel

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Short answer: Skip the Wells Gardner; niche product priced accordingly which doesn't meet your needs.
Look for a 1080p monitor or TV instead.

Longer form: I wouldn't be too surprised if that panel's G2G response time figure is close to accurate. Additionally, these are probably a pretty new panel, see this bill of lading:
http://portexaminer.com/trade-data/ht-p ... 718e00651/

AUO and its customers don't keep 42" panels on the shelf for long. However, I don't know what the segmentation on production tech is like here - they could have another production line cranking out panels with slightly older tech. Taiwanese maker HT Precision Technology (the owner of the Wells-Gardner name) is serving a niche market here, so we don't know what other features are like with the monitor, but I'm expecting they are quite bare bones, like digital signage (which the company also makes). Many computer monitor and TV makers carefully design overdrive in firmware and add useful scaler chips.

There's just a heck of a lot not known about this monitor: Its panel type, scaler chip, motion blur, etc. We do know that this doesn't have its own stand, or even its own casing. The main point of buying one of these is if you need a plug-in replacement or are designing an LCD panel-equipped arcade cabinet. That doesn't seem to be what you're doing, so I would forget about this totally.

If you go in search of computer monitors (TFT Central reviews these) or TVs (RTings.com reviews those) you can find lots of useful metrics.

A short list of some (not all) features to look out for in comparisons:

-1080p resolution (on the PC side, this might limit you to 24" unless you'd accept having a monitor have to scale the Framemeister output again - and this might not be an issue at all if you don't use generated black scanlines, and don't demand the absolutely crispest lines of pixels)
-low input lag (measured, albeit with different methods, on both sites as well as at DisplayLag.com)
-low motion blur (overdrive helps deal with this, but the g2g figure is a very rough indicator of this as well - obviously, looking at review sites lets you see more exactly what the characteristics are going to be like)
-panel type: TN, IPS, VA (inc. derivatives MVA/PVA). There are some other names for these. I'd write a summary of each, but it'd be more clutter - my thought? Look for IPS if you can, so long as black levels aren't critical to you. VA could be interesting too. TN if you can find it at a great savings - less than $200 for a monitor - and don't mind the drawbacks.
-correct inputs: For your Framemeister, I think either HDMI or DVI (DVI-D?) will work fine. Also, you might be interested in future proofing a bit: FreeSync (or G-Sync, if you've any interest in nVidia compatible devices) might be of use someday, though I wouldn't pay a premium for it unless you know you'll use it.

I'm not sure, but HDTVs might have better support for additional blur reduction via scanning backlights. You may or may not enjoy this feature. It's a bit old but there is some information on this here. Some new PC gaming monitors have great scanning backlights, but I'm not sure if they work at 60Hz.
Even with the slower inputs, keep in mind that HDTV input lag should be more or less consistent in a no-processing mode, so in many games you should simply be able to adjust the frame or two of latency.
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Re: Any thoughts on this 1080p arcade panel

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Hoagtech wrote:But what options do I have if the old Sony models aren't available and the new TV's from Sony have almost double input lag. Where can I find my needs in a decent size?
Nowhere else, no need to keep asking the same question, since lag is your main concern (and you are right) we're already giving you the best answers.
It's a harsh world, large displays with low lag are very rare, but people struggle to find cabs and broadcast monitors too, so why not put the same amount of effort and money into sourcing one of the very few flat panels in the world that can really do the job ?

To me your options are pretty clear, again:
1) - it's still time to hunt down a KDL-42W700B or KDL-50W800B, most certainly used from Amazon or whatever, or imported from Canada. Tough but doable.
1-bis: get someone to purchase one for you in Europe and ship it to the US.
2) - get one of those Vizio, often those have only one input with low lag, in-depht reading of the Rtings review required.
3) - if you have clicked and actually read what I've linked at the end of my previous post you should know the BenQ BL3201PH or BL3201PT is one rare fast, low-lag 32" monitor, all other with similar specs are 27". Expensive though.
4) - oh yeah there are those overhyped Samsung sets too, the 40JU7500 (curved) or 40JU7100 (flat) with decent lag too, both are very overpriced though.

Pretty much zero alternatives at the moment.

PS: or yeah, get some of those overpriced built-in or spare parts arcade flat panels tested, we never know maybe there's one with actually great performance, but I would be careful with publishing the results over 'rich' arcade communities, because doing so could trigger riots once they realize they've paid unreasonable amounts on garbage displays. :mrgreen:
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Re: Any thoughts on this 1080p arcade panel

Post by Ed Oscuro »

It has to be said there are some fast large (30"+) monitors on the way now - unfortunately, they're mostly expensive 16:9 or even 21:9 aspect ratio curved monitors; or UHD; the few that have 1080 lines of resolution are curved monitors with super wide aspect ratios, so the size indication is misleading. 1080p performance is unknown on these, too.

Right now a simple TV is the best bet. There may be good stuff coming...or not. Don't feel the need to jump into anything unless you're happy with it, though.
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Re: Any thoughts on this 1080p arcade panel

Post by Hoagtech »

I don't have a lot of time to post before work so here's an update:

I got the Leo bodnar in 2 days later from London to Washington State USA, :P insane

I tested my Panasonic: 120-126 ms input lag :cry:

My brothers Sharp Aquos: 133-136 ms :evil:

And my brothers Asus 1080p monitor: 14-17ms 8)

And last was my 39" hi sense Lcd which has a very motion blurry picture but I liked the input lag: 44-47ms :)

So I took pictures but I'll drop some photobuckets when I got time, but I decided against the 42" arcade panel, although I will never know if it is truly to arcade standard, instead my brother and I each bought a KDL 65" 950b which holds the record for lowest input lag in a 65" panel. - 17ms and it's grey to grey was 6.5 ms (the same as the arcade panel). A lot of reviewers complained about light bleeding in black scenes and motion blur, but I don't care how pretty it looks, when I press back back "B" I better see a harpoon come out ASAP.
Thanks for your help guys. I ended spending a little more money than I would've liked.
More to come on a full review of the panel. :o
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Re: Any thoughts on this 1080p arcade panel

Post by Xyga »

Hoagtech wrote:KDL 65" 950b
Good choice. 8)

Who cares if it's not perfect, the 950B is much more competent for gaming than 99.99% of other TV sets out there.
IT'S A SONY!
Let those Samsung owners deal with PWM blur, lack of 4:4:4 in full signal, and 4K pixels they don't need.

Hey, what type of panel does it have ?
It should be IPS but there's those comments about a Sharp ASV panel (a type of VA) on the 65" model only.
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Re: Any thoughts on this 1080p arcade panel

Post by Hoagtech »

Xyga wrote:
Hoagtech wrote:KDL 65" 950b
Good choice. 8)

Who cares if it's not perfect, the 950B is much more competent for gaming than 99.99% of other TV sets out there.
IT'S A SONY!
Let those Samsung owners deal with PWM blur, lack of 4:4:4 in full signal, and 4K pixels they don't need.

Hey, what type of panel does it have ?
It should be IPS but there's those comments about a Sharp ASV panel (a type of VA) on the 65" model only.
It still an IPS panel. Greyer blacks but a nice viewing angle for a closeup long couch. Now I just need to figure out how I'm going to use a CRT and an LCD in the same room. I'm thinking maybe a sunken wall Crt with a swivel arm on the Sony where I can cover it if I need to. ? Idk. I gotta major game room renovation coming up in the next few days.
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