Another day, another killing (split from US shootings topic)

[Specineff]

At the risk of sounding like a troll, how come we don't see or hear anyone talking about that extremist right-winger, Hitler-idolizing freak that filleted a child and a teacher with a sword at a school, out of xenophobia in Sweden? Or is it any less hideous of a crime because it was done without a gun, or because there were only two victims?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/ ... CE20151023

I mean, at least he didn't use a gun, right? No smoke, no blast, no lead going through the body at supersonic speeds. Only cold steel cutting arteries and vital organs as it goes in and gets withdrawn through the body of that child. One less fu**er to wage a jihad against Europe, right?

[Giest118]

At the risk of sounding like a troll, how come we don't see or hear anyone talking about that extremist right-winger, Hitler-idolizing, freak that filleted a child and a teacher with a sword at a school, out of xenophobia in Sweden? Or is it any less hideous of a crime because it was done without a gun, or because there were only two victims?

In utilitarian terms, less victims does mean it's "less bad."
Continuing in utilitarian terms, the fact that sword violence is less frequent than gun violence also means it's "less bad." And that's the crux of it, really. People would like it if murder happened less often, and they would like a way to make that happen. To that end, they look and see "oh hey, guns are used to murder huge amounts of people, and guns have literally no purpose other than murder. Maybe reducing the number of guns will have some kind of noticeable impact on the number of murders that happen?"

And the response of the pro-gun crowd is, "fuck it." Which is fine. Apathy is healthy.

[ZacharyB]

It's a serious issue. We're not talking about the next video game to come out or Konami's latest antics. It's talk about how people are losing their lives to the behavior of other people who are able to quickly and lawfully obtain easily-operated weapons.

Since we people of the United States tend to hold the gun as a vanguard of self-defense, it would be interesting to see some kind of research into just how many illicit aggressors are dissuaded through the use of a gun. Do they ward off more than they murder in self-righteous acts? (Supposing that "self-righteous acts" also includes things like gang violence.)

We've had several high-profile university shootings here in the United States these past few months, but I also remember reading in one article that on a single weekend, something like 90 people were killed in habitual gun violence in the Great Lakes area (Chicago, Detroit). We can't just assume that "criminals are always going to have guns"; they have to come from somewhere.

With gun control, we could at least bring the number of guns entering the black markets down, as it would become harder for ordinary men to buy guns and then feed them into illicit circles, such as intentionally giving a gun away to a gang relative, or unintentionally, by theft (this happened to me: guy stole a gun my late father had purchased).

Hell, even just limiting the number of guns in the marketplace through supply & demand economics would keep the number of guns in circulation down, leaving more inept guys desperate to settle scores to fumble with knives, where it's much more difficult to act the proverbial bull in a china shop.

[Skykid]

The bigger picture is, arms are big business, the US is a big customer, business owns government, therefore government protects the interest of businesses first.

Your lives and safety are worth less than the dollars in someone else's pocket, and that's not changing any time soon.

[MintyTheCat]

At the risk of sounding like a troll, how come we don't see or hear anyone talking about that extremist right-winger, Hitler-idolizing freak that filleted a child and a teacher with a sword at a school, out of xenophobia in Sweden? Or is it any less hideous of a crime because it was done without a gun, or because there were only two victims?

This thread discusses shooting in the US.

By all means start a thread about the killings that have taken place in Sweden.

[MintyTheCat]

The bigger picture is, arms are big business, the US is a big customer, business owns government, therefore government protects the interest of businesses first.

Your lives and safety are worth less than the dollars in someone else's pocket, and that's not changing any time soon.

Correct. However, the image that a society, organisation or an individual project is important.

With enough pressure even large companies and governments even up having to make changes that reduce a problem or solve one.

The US is dealing with a legacy in terms of how their law is presently arranged but there is nothing to say that the situation will have improved in the future.

Never be a defeatist, Skykid. I find being realistic but looking for the positive tends to improve ones outlook.

[Specineff]

At the risk of sounding like a troll, how come we don't see or hear anyone talking about that extremist right-winger, Hitler-idolizing freak that filleted a child and a teacher with a sword at a school, out of xenophobia in Sweden? Or is it any less hideous of a crime because it was done without a gun, or because there were only two victims?

This thread discusses shooting in the US.

By all means start a thread about the killings that have taken place in Sweden.

Killings are still killings. Regardless of location.

[MintyTheCat]

At the risk of sounding like a troll, how come we don't see or hear anyone talking about that extremist right-winger, Hitler-idolizing freak that filleted a child and a teacher with a sword at a school, out of xenophobia in Sweden? Or is it any less hideous of a crime because it was done without a gun, or because there were only two victims?

This thread discusses shooting in the US.

By all means start a thread about the killings that have taken place in Sweden.

Killings are still killings. Regardless of location.

Correct. But this thread is specifically about killings in the US through the use of guns.

Your question has been answered. By all means please open a thread to discuss the killings that have taken place in Sweden. This is not the place for that.

[Specineff]

Yes, but then we'd need to make one for when a tragedy happens in Germany, and another in France, and Spain, and so on, and so on. Better to group the birds of similar feathers together.

Honestly, I don't think any of you Euro members of the forum would like it if a foreigner like me started to do that to criticize life in your countries, just because I can. THAT would be trolling, wouldn't it?

With all due respect, if you can present your views on smoking in a thread related to gun violence in the USA, I can present mine on a similar tragedy in which a couple innocents lost their lives to a weapon-wielding maniac in Europe (Because it's an entirely different beast when it happens around your neighborhood, right?), with your approval or not, Minty. So please, stop the self-righteousness.

[MintyTheCat]

You clearly are not posting on topic, Specineff.

You are also not adding much to the debate.

Just for your information: Europe is not a country, it is a group of countries.

[Strider77]

He did say "countries" (plural)... just saying.

[rancor]

Minty is going to wish for an armed society soon enough.. Just give it a few more years (months?)

https://youtu.be/-VJyKRwQHHM

[Xyga]

Yes, but then we'd need to make one for when a tragedy happens in Germany, and another in France, and Spain, and so on, and so on. Better to group the birds of similar feathers together.

Honestly, I don't think any of you Euro members of the forum would like it if a foreigner like me started to do that to criticize life in your countries, just because I can. THAT would be trolling, wouldn't it?

Don't take it this way please, if one is presenting things in that fashion it's Minty, I don't recall reading other Euro-posts (lol) in this trhead saying 'eurofags>murifags' or something that condescending.

Minty's right though to underline we're definitely not 'one' country lol, never make that mistake, if we were the EU would probably work much better. ^^

@rancor: that's far-right-wing propagandist video though, and if you believe most people in Europe think alike and even further would welcome a society with free gun rights you're very wrong and don't know a thing about the complex cultural and political aspects of our lives.

[rancor]

@rancor: that's far-right-wing propagandist video though,

Clearly. All of those isis flags, long-bearded mullahs, and burqa-clad females are part of a vast right wing conspiracy.

don't know a thing about the complex cultural and political aspects of our lives.

Oh, please. You've got trash and we've (USA) got trash. Get off your high horse.

[Xyga]

God you don't understand a thing, just adding fuel to the flames.

[Icarus]

ಠ_ಠ

1. Keep the noise down, the children can't sleep with all of this racket. Don't make me come in here.

2. Your choice of image macro doesn't make you look intelligent, rancor, it makes you look ignorant, FYI.
I'd also appreciate it if people didn't spam macros as cynical/sarcastic replies to posts. If you can't discuss something without resorting to them, maybe you shouldn't be joining the discussion at all.

3. The post reporting tool is for posts that are absolutely against the rules - e.g. extreme racism, sexism, spambots, shitposting etc - and NOT for posts you have a personal disagreement with, Minty. Please DO NOT abuse it, as I'm getting sick of seeing a report nearly every week from you on posts that you have a daily disagreement with. If you don't like it, take it to PM. That goes for the rest of you as well.

If I have to step in here, it won't be pretty, so tone it down. This thread has done well to last this long without devolving into shit, so don't start now.

[rancor]

understood..

[MintyTheCat]

ಠ_ಠ

3. The post reporting tool is for posts that are absolutely against the rules - e.g. extreme racism, sexism, spambots, shitposting etc - and NOT for posts you have a personal disagreement with, Minty. Please DO NOT abuse it, as I'm getting sick of seeing a report nearly every week from you on posts that you have a daily disagreement with. If you don't like it, take it to PM. That goes for the rest of you as well.

Apologies, Icarus, I was under the impression that image spam and off topic aspects were to be reported.
I have reported image spam in past that I recall.

By all means let's open this thread to discuss killings in Sweden.

[Icarus]

Minty, your past reports on macros etc have been duly noted. However your most recent report amounts to nothing other than "I don't like this post", and in context of the discussion - of which I was bored enough to read the last 10 pages of during my lunchbreak - the subject evolving to encompass weapon-related crime in other countries, not just the U.S., is a valid and expected direction for the discussion to take. In other words, it is entirely on-topic.

If you didn't think that this thread might evolve in that direction, then clearly you haven't been on many discussion forums.

So let's leave it at that.

rancor: (but seriously, that macro, just no.)

[MintyTheCat]

No worries at all, Icarus.

It is possible to change the Thread's title to "Another Shooting" and thereby remove the exclusivity of the US?
I have been on many discussions and I may well be showing my age as I was raised back in the days of Newsgroups where topics were often stuck to rigidly on some of the technical groups that I used.

My main issue here is that the Thread is titled the "US" but the other poster was interested in discussing the recent politically motivated killings that took place in Sweden. To my Engineer's mind they are clearly different topics but hey call me old fashioned

[Icarus]

Done. Play nice now, children. :V

[Skykid]

Well done donuts, you broke the thread, and I'm not even sure how.

The significance of the topic was to draw attention to the frequency of the attacks in the US partly because of the ease of access to firearms, partly because nut jobs. The entire purpose of the ongoing discussion was, with each new incident, to debate whether or not the US should ban or reform the laws around gun ownership.

"Another day, another killing - arbitrary ver." is utterly pointless because there's no actual topic for debate except a homicide occurred in some place.

So if this is how it's going to stay, you may as well lock it because it has no more relevance to the original topic, and let's face it, no one cares much about a random stabbing in the old eastern bloc in the same way as a Christian goth teen machine gun rampage + self detonation.

[Icarus]

Actually, I have a better idea... *gets out topic-splitting scissors*
I'd prefer one catch-all in this case than having a billion threads on the same subject.

[Skykid]

That takes more sense, although I predict one out of the two threads will quickly dissapear into server oblivion.

[Icarus]

That takes more sense, although I predict one out of the two threads will quickly dissapear into server oblivion.

Then so be it. If this was an imageboard, I'd be quite happy seeing one or both SAGE'd into oblivion.

[ptoing]

Minty is going to wish for an armed society soon enough.. Just give it a few more years (months?)

https://youtu.be/-VJyKRwQHHM

I usually do not post in the offtopic, but this I have to comment.

There are no IS flags in this. Google what an IS flag looks like. This was a mourning march for Imam Hussein by Shiite muslims, which are against what IS is doing, which is mostly radical Shia muslims. So yes, that kinda shit is distorting things so that people who are already afraid for whatever reason buy into shitty propaganda. Inform yourself next time before making assumptions about whole groups of people.

This is the last thing I am gonna post here.

[neorichieb1971]

Does one isolated European incident warrant a thread?

If there are copy cat incidents we can compare apples to apples.. or pears or whatever.

[MintyTheCat]

Does one isolated European incident warrant a thread?

If there are copy cat incidents we can compare apples to apples.. or pears or whatever.

Well, there have been a few killings in Sweden this last year that appear to have racial motives.

[neorichieb1971]

Did any of incidents involve suicides?

[MintyTheCat]

Did any of incidents involve suicides?

No.