Don't you appreciate new good shmups?

[Kaleidogames]

I'm writing because I made a good shmup, I spent over a whole year polishing it for people like you. But when I post something interesting about it is like It doesn't exist. Is Cave or Treasure the onle ones making good shmups? I don't think so.

Please have a go, it's really good, If you like Galaga , then you will really enjoy this one.

This is gameplay from today for the tournament. CLick to watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYQj33oT6fo

Cheers!

[Obiwanshinobi]

I'm writing because I made a good shmup, I spent over a whole year polishing it for people like you. But when I post something interesting about it is like It doesn't exist. Is Cave or Treasure the onle ones making good shmups? I don't think so.

Please have a go, it's really good, If you like Galaga , then you will really enjoy this one.

This is gameplay from today for the tournament. CLick to watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYQj33oT6fo

Cheers!

Are we supposed to guess what platform it's for? Whether it's freeware or not?

[copy-paster]

Reminds me of RECCA though.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I thought of Gyruss (played the GBA port lately) first, then about certain GBA bullet hell demo that I'm not even sure was a game... Vulkanon?

[Van_Artic]

that's pretty biased caling your own shmup "good" and putting the likes of Cave and Treasure in the same sentence

especially when its got stock fonts and graphics that ive seen in countless XBLIG titles that were sold for a smaller price

also no, Cave and Treasure aren't the only ones making good shmups; the list is long, but don't expect to be in it

[qmish]

OP looks like begging( Though i guess author is upset by lukewarm reception (i don't see any discussion of game in thread for it from Development subforum).

[Kaleidogames]

Hi there,

Sorry you got a little bit upset. Maybe you are not used to be totally sincere, I wasn't sarcastic or presumptuous.

I'm not saying my shmup is the best, not at all. But people and media qualify it as good. In fairs all shmup players love it I am not in the best position to say is good or bad as I can't be objetive with my own game. In the same way I can't say it is easy or hard, hundreds of players have given very useful feedback during this year and I have adapted the game acording to what they said. But I can say people buy the game after the fair is ended, and that is a good sign.

I'm not comparing myself to Cave or Treasure, they made really amazing shmups that made history. But there are new ones that also are pretty good, remember they were once small like we are now. And I have seen new developers posting and they get almost no responses. Please check dev threads and responses. It's pretty depressing developing shmups for shmup players, working a whole year tweaking and improving gameplay and some communities just plain ignore it. Luckily we have fairs where we see how much people enjoy.
Maybe I thought this was a very active forum with lots of players and I was expecting too much, I don't know.

Only think I can tell you is that we (at least us) work with passion and we don't expect you to praise our new games but we expect you to play them or receive some true feedback based in real gameplay. It's a shmup, they are focused in game play not graphics.

Now, answering:

@copy-paster:
Recca is a bit more like star force which is nice but Vortex Attack is a lot more frenetic and built for competition.

@Obiwanshinobi:
Sorry can't make it freeware. I would love to but I have to feed people so I made hit the cheapest I could, really: 4.99USD I believe it'is a very low price for a whole year development. It's available in Steam as "VORTEX ATTACK" and I have applied a 10% discount for this week. I really can't do anymore.

@Van_Artic:
Why are you mixing up things.
Stock graphics and fonts? Have you ever worked in ANY video game?
Is XBLIG a bad thing then? Indie games are bad? Most AAA studios were previously Indie whether you like it or not.

@qmish
There you have: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=52616 (from Dec 2014!, now obviously outdated)

Thanks for your comments guys. I will try to answer everyone of you.

[Ebbo]

I can understand your frustration. However blaming your potential customers/testers for not meeting with your own expectations creates only a toxic atmosphere.

This forum offers only a small representation of the shmup fans and even then the tastes vary greatly between players. It's very hard for any game to gather universal acclaim from such a diverse fanbase. Maybe your game would cater to some different crowd, since some people seem to enjoy it. Just keep in mind that there is still a big gap between making a good game and commercially successful one and your own passion won't necessarily meet with your expectations.

[Kaleidogames]

@Ebbo, Yes I already noticed. But have you played it? That's what I mean.
I'm not blaming my customers, I already am making money from the game and I have other shmup and retro communities happily playing the game already, I was talking about this very forum.

[qmish]

I'm under impression that this forum is more towards about those who also participate in it, not just outcomers with few posts.

[Blinge]

I can understand your frustration. However blaming your potential customers/testers for not meeting with your own expectations creates only a toxic atmosphere.

I'm not blaming my customers, I already am making money from the game and I have other shmup and retro communities happily playing the game already, I was talking about this very forum.

I think there may be some language issues here. This very forum is the source of potential customers Ebbo is referring to.

In other words, saying "Why aren't you interested in X " isn't the best way to generate interest. It feels like an accusation.

[Xyga]

An idea of what kind of shmups this community likes: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=53159

Few Treasure games are still being played actually, Cave is #1 yeah, but other very popular developpers are Raizing (a.k.a 8ing) and ZUN/Shanghai Alice (Touhou, although mostly outside of this community).

Many people here also dig the old classics of the 80's and 90's arcade, as well as the 8/16/32-bit hits.
Mostly 90's to be precise.

What today's shmuppers don't really care much about:
- 'euroshmups' or games in the league of 90's western computer style.
- games trying too hard to be 'neo-retro-pixel' with space invaders, galaga, area shooter clones: we've seen way too many of those already.
- games trying to be too original and straying to far away from the classic japanese scrollers (horizontal or vertical) and more modern manic/bullet hell.


Also: that constant 'PEW PEW PEW' NOISE in your game is UNBEARABLE ! I've stopped watching the video because I couldn't bear it, frankly extremely irritating.

[qmish]

- 'euroshmups' or games in the league of 90's western computer style.

Drone is so underrated.

https://youtu.be/a7NLd6fT724?t=114

[Kaleidogames]

I'm under impression that this forum is more towards about those who also participate in it, not just outcomers with few posts.

Yes and that's they way it usually goes, I forgot about that.
Instead of talking about my game directly I should have said more about me. Sorry I really crap at public relationships I tend to talk directly.
Just to let you know, I have been trying a few games during the year and finishing others like JamesTown, SineMora or Hydorah. So there you go. you know a little bit more now

But also notice how i introduced myself in December and told my favourite games, style and what I play but still nobody said a thing.

I think there may be some language issues here. This very forum is the source of potential customers Ebbo is referring to.
In other words, saying "Why aren't you interested in X " isn't the best way to generate interest. It feels like an accusation.

I woke up with wrong feet today it was a bit silly saying something like this but that is how I feel. Remember not everybody has unlimited time to talk about whatever in forums. I make videogames now and sometimes, only sometimes talk about them in forums. If you meet me in person I can talk about them non-stop. I have been playing them since 1988 in MSX with Nemesis. I have a lot of experience.

An idea of what kind of shmups this community likes: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=53159

Few Treasure games are still being played actually, Cave is #1 yeah, but other very popular developpers are Raizing (a.k.a 8ing) and ZUN/Shanghai Alice (Touhou, although mostly outside of this community).

Many people here also dig the old classics of the 80's and 90's arcade, as well as the 8/16/32-bit hits.
Mostly 90's to be precise.

What today's shmuppers don't really care much about:
- 'euroshmups' or games in the league of 90's western computer style.
- games trying too hard to be 'neo-retro-pixel' with space invaders, galaga, area shooter clones: we've seen way too many of those already.
- games trying to be too original and straying to far away from the classic japanese scrollers (horizontal or vertical) and more modern manic/bullet hell.


Also: that constant 'PEW PEW PEW' NOISE in your game is UNBEARABLE ! I've stopped watching the video because I couldn't bear it, frankly extremely irritating.

Funny: it sounds less than Don Pachi but its up to the user to adjust FX/MUSIC volume ratio. I can't control the users custom settings.

Thanks for the list of what you don't like.
Listen if you dont 'want to play the game that's fine. But don't assume things that are not.

Luckly my game is:
- not an euroshmup , it is played in Japan everyday more and more (just got translated a couple of weeks ago).
- it's is not pixelated
- is not triyng to be too original (just competitive).

[Giest118]

Unless your shmup made it to arcades at some point, nobody will play it, or like it.

So put it on an arcade cabinet and it will automatically become well-liked and fully appreciated.

[Kollision]

I will check your game next time I log into my Steam account.

[qmish]

it is played in Japan everyday more and more (just got translated a couple of weeks ago).

I'm curious. How's feedback? Any user reviews/comments in moonspeak?

So put it on an arcade cabinet and it will automatically become well-liked and fully appreciated.

He did it!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vteYKlTwL6A

p.s.
Watched some more videos. Is there a music in your game? I only hear sound effects.

[Giest118]

So put it on an arcade cabinet and it will automatically become well-liked and fully appreciated.

He did it!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vteYKlTwL6A

Shit man. OP has every right to complain, then.

[Kaleidogames]

it is played in Japan everyday more and more (just got translated a couple of weeks ago).

I'm curious. How's feedback? Any user reviews/comments in moonspeak?

So put it on an arcade cabinet and it will automatically become well-liked and fully appreciated.

He did it!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vteYKlTwL6A

p.s.
Watched some more videos. Is there a music in your game? I only hear sound effects.

Yeah, I tend to put the FX a bit higher than the music, but it is configurable. Also don't forget about the full cabinet which has an older version with older graphics and gameplay:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo0sIyv2zAY
and here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxqT4WezWPA


About japanese feedback, they play it quite often but the game was in English. That's a language barrier but we are looking for publishers over there, it's a matter of time I will find a stronger link as publisher or ambassador that will be able to talk to japanese people and get feedback from them. It should happen soon.

[mastermx]

This game looks like it would be a good game on mobile devices. Put it up on android for free and generate ad revenue. For me personally I can't seem to take this game seriously, and I just don't know why, I just can't quite put my finger on it.

[KAI]

Treasure

Posting that name is the best way to infuriate people around here.

[Jeneki]

I'll tell you what I don't appreciate: Clickbait topic titles for an advertisement. This is never a good way to generate good faith.

Here's what you do: Start a topic with the game name and the platform it's on. Tell us in the topic a bit about the game and why it's interesting and worth checking out. Attach a screenshot if you want to go the extra mile. Something to get me excited about playing the game. Pretty much the exact opposite of what appears in this topic.

[trap15]

I'll tell you what I don't appreciate: Clickbait topic titles for an advertisement. This is never a good way to generate good faith.

Even moreso when the post is blaming his own failure on the customer base.

[CloudyMusic]

I'll start off by saying that I'm just going to be honest here, and don't mean any particular offense.

Looking through your post history here, every post you've made (except one) has just been an advertisement for your game. As others have mentioned, a lot of people here are a bit leery about drive-by advertisements, and are more willing to check out dev projects from people who actively post here. Not saying that you have to, of course, but people generally will be a little less likely to investigate something being advertised by an unfamiliar name.

On top of that, while it might be due to a language barrier, the tone of many of your posts give the impression that you have a bit of an ego regarding what you've produced. ("Super addictive game," "a really awesome shmup game," "the game is apparently awesome for most players...") You obviously need to sing your game's praises in any proper sales pitch, but the language you use is important, and there's a fine line between believing your game is good and declaring it outright. In your first two posts in this very thread, you come across a bit like you're implying "I have bestowed this great game upon you philistines, why don't you love it?" If that's not your intention, then I hope you understand how your writing style may come across to native English speakers, and if so, run things by a proofreader first if that's not the tone you want to convey.

Anyhow, try not to get frustrated that not many people here have seemingly tried out your game. There are so many indie shmups coming out all the time that it's almost impossible to try them all, no matter how much we may wish we had the time to do so. As a result, on the occasion that I am looking for games to check out, even relatively little things can be a dealbreaker. It's sort of like looking through resumes for job applicants, where you have 20 applicants for a single position. Seemingly-egocentric devs and lofty promises about perfect quality make me a little suspicious (remember this guy?), so I usually won't jump to download something that may have been produced by a developer who can't see any faults in his or her own product and won't accept any feedback.

[BIL]

remember this guy?

Topic title made me think it actually was that guy. ;3

[Kaleidogames]

I'll tell you what I don't appreciate: Clickbait topic titles for an advertisement. This is never a good way to generate good faith.

Here's what you do: Start a topic with the game name and the platform it's on. Tell us in the topic a bit about the game and why it's interesting and worth checking out. Attach a screenshot if you want to go the extra mile. Something to get me excited about playing the game. Pretty much the exact opposite of what appears in this topic.

I already did it. You missed the point of this thread and there are NO LINKS to the product. Just a video because someone posted its smaller version.

[Cee]

I'll tell you what I don't appreciate: Clickbait topic titles for an advertisement. This is never a good way to generate good faith.

Here's what you do: Start a topic with the game name and the platform it's on. Tell us in the topic a bit about the game and why it's interesting and worth checking out. Attach a screenshot if you want to go the extra mile. Something to get me excited about playing the game. Pretty much the exact opposite of what appears in this topic.

I already did it. You missed the point of this thread and there are NO LINKS to the product. Just a video because someone posted its smaller version.

Tbh i found your tone and reverse psychology attempt deeply annoying, if you have something to share then share it and let people decide how they feel about it themselves seeing as this community is fully capable of that.

[qmish]

Anyway, all other threads about Vortex Attack has no discussion at all OR some talk not about game itself.

I guess that played role too.

[Kaleidogames]

I'll start off by saying that I'm just going to be honest here, and don't mean any particular offense.

Looking through your post history here, every post you've made (except one) has just been an advertisement for your game. As others have mentioned, a lot of people here are a bit leery about drive-by advertisements, and are more willing to check out dev projects from people who actively post here. Not saying that you have to, of course, but people generally will be a little less likely to investigate something being advertised by an unfamiliar name.

On top of that, while it might be due to a language barrier, the tone of many of your posts give the impression that you have a bit of an ego regarding what you've produced. ("Super addictive game," "a really awesome shmup game," "the game is apparently awesome for most players...") You obviously need to sing your game's praises in any proper sales pitch, but the language you use is important, and there's a fine line between believing your game is good and declaring it outright. In your first two posts in this very thread, you come across a bit like you're implying "I have bestowed this great game upon you philistines, why don't you love it?" If that's not your intention, then I hope you understand how your writing style may come across to native English speakers, and if so, run things by a proofreader first if that's not the tone you want to convey.

Anyhow, try not to get frustrated that not many people here have seemingly tried out your game. There are so many indie shmups coming out all the time that it's almost impossible to try them all, no matter how much we may wish we had the time to do so. As a result, on the occasion that I am looking for games to check out, even relatively little things can be a dealbreaker. It's sort of like looking through resumes for job applicants, where you have 20 applicants for a single position. Seemingly-egocentric devs and lofty promises about perfect quality make me a little suspicious (remember this guy?), so I usually won't jump to download something that may have been produced by a developer who can't see any faults in his or her own product and won't accept any feedback.

No problem, the game used to have a lot of problems, and other forums and people from fairs have helped to make a better product. As I already have said, I don't think my game is the best by far, but it is entertaining for most people who have tried it in fairs and steam. I already clarified it that, please dont keep saying that, I am not an egocentric person. I'm sorry if I sounded like one but I'm nothing like that at all.

I still want to make better shmups, there still is a long way to go! This game was about scores and replayability and I think got that part right. People have convinced me that the gameplay is best it can get already. So this is when I made the tournaments and I was confident to say what I just said.

If you have real feedback I will listen to each one of them, there is always room for improvement.

PS: Seriously I'm a normal person but talking here and not measuring every word I type sometimes is counterproductive. I will measure what i say more careful between people that doesn't know me.

Just one more thing, when you are indie you need to be slightly pushy (just a tiny bit) or you will pass unnoticed. I will not disrespect anybody I respect everyones opinions, thats why I asked at start, but sorry for causing confusion it sounded like I was blaming something to someone, nothing like that. Just a genuine question that sounded badly.

[MathU]

You could start by showing you respect your potential customers and ditching the Steam DRM. Whether or not a game has DRM is my baseline before I even think about considering if a game is worth my time or money.

I think you'll find that users on this forum tend to be quite apprehensive of games made by Westerners in general because of a very long history of them not understanding what people actually like about the genre due in part to the general death of arcades. 2D shooters at face value are in fact one of the simplest game genres in existence. It's easy to just slap one together, but to actually make it good is a whole other story and, especially after over 30 years of refinement, having some level of experience with all the different kinds of games released over that time and what makes them compelling is important if you want your game to be able to compete for a player's time with the really good, tightly designed arcade action experiences that are already readily available for people to enjoy both through freeware and emulation.

People often talk about how the genre is always dying or dead in some manner, but the reality is that there has pretty much always been a veritable deluge of games being released--many just happen to not be very good. The old shootthecore.moonpod site had an independent PC shooter database comprising 1186 games. That's right, there are currently more than one thousand one hundred eighty-six independently-developed 2D shooters for the PC platform! That's more games than any but the most dedicated of PC 2D shooter enthusiasts with a lot of free time on their hands and no regard for other video game genres could ever hope to put a significant fraction of their time into in order to appreciate them all.

So when you are making a 2D shooter, especially if you're doing it to make a little money (when there are already so many quality freeware shooters to compete with), it is extremely important that you ask yourself how you're going to differentiate your game from all those others. If your audience is intended to be genuine fans of the genre such as those found on forums like this, it is extremely important then that you ask yourself, "What is going to make someone want to put their time into this over another one of these popular games?" And one of those ways is through very thoughtful regard for level design and game mechanics.