TV for 480P...or not?

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soviet conscript
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Re: TV for 480P...or not?

Post by soviet conscript »

I haven't even seen a regular CRT PC monitor "in the wild" for awhile and the few on Craigslist are all smaller ones. CRT HD sets I see fairly often at Goodwill's out here for $1 but there usually the very large and heavy over 30" models that I have no way of transporting, especially by myself. I've never seen Hi-Scan tube in my years of thriving at all, at least not that I've noticed.
FinalBaton wrote:There's a 27 inch Sony PGM in Mesa, Arizona :

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-PGM-2710-2 ... 4897.l4275

Maybe you can negotiate a lower price if you tell them that you'll pick it up
The problem with this is he want $300 for a CRT monitor...even if I could get a lower price I doubt it would be much. It would be hard to swallow a $100 price tag even when I know Goodwill sells CRT' for a $1. Of course finding one of quality there takes a lot of luck and searching.

this thread has helped me know what to look for now though so I may just redouble by thriving efforts.
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BazookaBen
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Re: TV for 480P...or not?

Post by BazookaBen »

If you say you will pick it up locally for $50 cash he might take it, especially if a few weeks go by and he can't sell it.
Last edited by BazookaBen on Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Josh128
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Re: TV for 480P...or not?

Post by Josh128 »

bobrocks95 wrote: If you're fine with the small size a PC CRT and a component to VGA adapter would look really nice. If you're leaning towards the EDTV route, I haven't ever seen any ED CRTs in America, so I'm not sure we even got them. NEC and Panasonic made EDTV plasmas, but unless you're near a big city they'll probably take you a while to find. There's also video processors you can look into that are well-suited for 480p, and lots of people think 480p looks fine on an HD set too, but I don't know about 4K.

Josh touts that Samsung plasma an awful lot, too much I might say, but there's a thread around here for it somewhere with lots of pictures in it so you can decide for yourself how you think it looks, which is really all that matters. I'd guess a lot better than your 4K set and probably comparable to your 480i Sony for still images, but that's just a guess.
I have seen some EDTV plasmas in person years ago (very early 2000's) at a Circuit City store here in the US, so I can confirm they were sold here and may be available if you search enough, but they may not be in the best shape having ceased production so long ago.

I know I sound like a gushing schoolgirl about the Samsung, but I can still say without blinking an eye that my two 51" 4500s are hands down the best bang for the money Ive ever spent on A/V gear. The colors/contrast/uniformity/motion and size are dazzling for any set IMO, much less a $400 one. Being as realistic and honest as I can be about it, the only knock about it that I can say is that it only has 2 HDMI ports. The ~37ms of input lag is not really noticeable for me as I dont use external processors that add lag. I will concede though that if you do use them it will throw the lag into unacceptable range, so take that as the other knock against it if you wish.

Ive played DC on it and compared to my Viewsonic 17" CRT, and I feel the plasma looks more impressive by a good margin. The VGA CRT was indeed sharper, but almost to a fault in my opinion. The 4500 was sharp yet not as harsh and had better color/contrast and its size just makes it all the more impressive to me. I also feel that its 480p looks better than 480i on my 27" FD Trinitron Wega, though the Wega does have comparable contrast. Again, just my now infamous opinion... :wink:

The kicker about the 36" Hitachi Ultravision CRT is that it also accepts VGA natively, a nice plus for DC. Also, it is not a flat tube, so it has better uniformity than a lot of the flat-tube HD CRTs well.

Ive never seen the NEC XM29 in person, but have read about it and the consensus is that its one of if not the top 480p CRTs ever produced. I personally feel the Hitachi Ultravision CRT should be included in that conversation as well, but its a fairly rare beast and there are very few reviews of it on the net. I was a sad camper when the flyback transformer went out on mine in 2011. :(
Last edited by Josh128 on Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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FinalBaton
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Re: TV for 480P...or not?

Post by FinalBaton »

BazookaBen wrote:If you say you will pick it up locally for $50 cash he might take it, especially if a few weeks go by and he can't sell it.l
Yep. it's worth a shot. Nothing to loose...
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Re: TV for 480P...or not?

Post by FinalBaton »

soviet conscript wrote:this thread has helped me know what to look for now though so I may just redouble by thriving efforts.
Well I guess what you should do now is to try some different Hi-scan and Super fine pitch Sony's that are near you
(yes, that implies bringing a console and hook-ups with you and testing it. what else can you do?)

Unless you can find some solid info on the net about wich particular models perform great with 480p. But personnaly, I had no such luck.


So, either that or waiting for an EDTV or a cheap good-sized RGB monitor to show up near you.
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Re: TV for 480P...or not?

Post by FinalBaton »

Seen people at Neogaf claim that the Sony XBR960 looks great for 480p(ps2, gamecube) and have low lag. Don't know if true... A lot of people over there are not that rigourous when it comes to analyzing hardware in a scientific matter

If you come across one, go check it out. It will be at worst a fun experiment and you'll be able to confirm to us here how it looks.
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Re: TV for 480P...or not?

Post by andykara2003 »

The Samsung plasma mentioned above is a great compromise if your only option is a flat panel (I have one), but if you're particular about image quality - especially clarity - a high end consumer CRT in native resolution will be quite a leap beyond that for both 15khz and 31khz. The plasma has some great qualities, but just can't resolve 15khz or 31khz as well as a good CRT.
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Re: TV for 480P...or not?

Post by BuckoA51 »

I thought most CRT televisions only supported 15khz? Or at least the ones that do support 31khz (HD CRTs) didn't look great with 15khz signals... :?:
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Re: TV for 480P...or not?

Post by andykara2003 »

That's right, in Europe at least. In terms of 4:3 monitors, my NEC XV29 plus does both resolutions perfectly anyway - but for consumer sets, I use a Loewe for 15Khz and a Metz via VGA for 31Khz (amazing non-HD set).

It depends what sort of gaming setup you're into - the Samsung is great for saving space, just using one TV for all resolutions etc. but if you're into CRTs and don't mind having one of two around, you can get a much better image with them. I only need 4:3 for retro stuff, but if I wanted widescreen I'd pick up the Loewe aconda.
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Re: TV for 480P...or not?

Post by FinalBaton »

andykara2003 wrote:The Samsung plasma mentioned above is a great compromise if your only option is a flat panel (I have one), but if you're particular about image quality - especially clarity - a high end consumer CRT in native resolution will be quite a leap beyond that for both 15khz and 31khz. The plasma has some great qualities, but just can't resolve 15khz or 31khz as well as a good CRT.
well to be fair the Samsung plasma is pretty nice for 31kHz. And it's actually quite decent for 15kHz too, wich is something not many flatpanels can boast.
But the OP seems to be looking only for CRTs, that can be had for cheap.
Last edited by FinalBaton on Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: TV for 480P...or not?

Post by FinalBaton »

andykara2003 wrote:the Loewe aconda.
That guy's video is intriguing. Wish it was shot in 1080p and a little more focused, so we could better judge the quality. But that 15kHz footage seems nice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlSjFmwSOFQ
And of course, 31kHz on this should look even better

In his other video, titled "part 1", he tests the lag and it mesures as 16 ms or so, wich is quite good
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Re: TV for 480P...or not?

Post by andykara2003 »

FinalBaton wrote:well to be fair the Samsung plasma is pretty nice for 31kHz. And it's actually quite decent for 15kHz too, wich is something not many flatpanels can boast.
It's very good for a flat panel. However, you need to see it side by side with a good CRT to really see the difference. I've had it running next to the NEC XV29+ and an E3001 chassis Loewe, running the same games at 31Khz and 15Khz respectively and there's a huge difference. Running Metroid prime on the Samsung looks like it's been smeared in vaseline in comparison to the NEC and the N64 looks much better on the Loewe.
FinalBaton wrote:That guy's video is intriguing. Wish it was shot in 1080p and a little more focused, so we could better judge the quality. But that 15kHz footage seems nice.
The Loewe Acondas aren't great for 15Khz as they have too much processing (100Hz etc.). The model in that video doesn't have the VGA card installed but would be great for 31Khz if it did.
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Re: TV for 480P...or not?

Post by FinalBaton »

andykara2003 wrote:It's very good for a flat panel. However, you need to see it side by side with a good CRT to really see the difference. I've had it running next to the NEC XV29+ and an E3001 chassis Loewe, running the same games at 31Khz and 15Khz respectively and there's a huge difference. Running Metroid prime on the Samsung looks like it's been smeared in vaseline in comparison to the NEC and the N64 looks much better on the Loewe.
Oh yeah, I don't doubt one second that an NEC XV/XM/XP is quite a bit better!
I own a TOTL Sony consumer SD CRT and a good PVM so I know what's out there in term of quality
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Re: TV for 480P...or not?

Post by andykara2003 »

Same with the Metz and the Loewe. Both are consumer TVs and in a different league to the Samsung image quality wise
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Re: TV for 480P...or not?

Post by FinalBaton »

Yep. My Sony FV300 beats my Samsung as well
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Re: TV for 480P...or not?

Post by soviet conscript »

FinalBaton wrote:
andykara2003 wrote:The Samsung plasma mentioned above is a great compromise if your only option is a flat panel (I have one), but if you're particular about image quality - especially clarity - a high end consumer CRT in native resolution will be quite a leap beyond that for both 15khz and 31khz. The plasma has some great qualities, but just can't resolve 15khz or 31khz as well as a good CRT.
well to be fair the Samsung plasma is pretty nice for 31kHz. And it's actually quite decent for 15kHz too, wich is something not many flatpanels can boast.
But the OP seems to be looking only for CRTs, that can be had for cheap.

yhea, pretty much only looking for cheap CRT set. $1-$20 would be ideal since as I've said Goodwill's around here commonly sell HD CRT'S for $1 but I would pay up to around $100 for the right set or a 480P Sony PVM which AFAIK there are only 2 crt models that do that and I have the 14 inch model which IMO is a bit to small.

ideally I would have 2 sets, an LCD HDTV for PS3/360 era and up a second that is ED for 480P and down. since ED TV's are so thin on the ground I' looking into a 3 set solution which has led me to my questions on HD CRT's which seem to be my best option for 480P stuff at the best price/quality. This is just for PS2, Xbox, Wii, Gamecube and maybe Dreamcast. I would actually prefer widescreen for a 480P set since it would only be used on a limited number of consoles and probably a lot of Wii gaming. also the black bars on the left and right sides do not bother me.

I know its not necessary and my 19 inch Samsung SD set will work just fine but you know how it is....

I almost grabbed a Samsung Slimfit HD CRT this weekend for $20 but someone snagged it before me. Noone ever mentions those sets and I am aware they have some geometry issues but overall the 30 inch model I used to have was probably the best all around TV I ever owned. that and they didn't weight nearly as much as other 30'' tubes so I could actually move and maneuver it around myself to some degree.
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Re: TV for 480P...or not?

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soviet conscript wrote: yhea, pretty much only looking for cheap CRT set. $1-$20 would be ideal since as I've said Goodwill's around here commonly sell HD CRT'S for $1 but I would pay up to around $100 for the right set or a 480P Sony PVM which AFAIK there are only 2 crt models that do that and I have the 14 inch model which IMO is a bit to small.

ideally I would have 2 sets, an LCD HDTV for PS3/360 era and up a second that is ED for 480P and down. since ED TV's are so thin on the ground I' looking into a 3 set solution which has led me to my questions on HD CRT's which seem to be my best option for 480P stuff at the best price/quality. This is just for PS2, Xbox, Wii, Gamecube and maybe Dreamcast. I would actually prefer widescreen for a 480P set since it would only be used on a limited number of consoles and probably a lot of Wii gaming. also the black bars on the left and right sides do not bother me.

I know its not necessary and my 19 inch Samsung SD set will work just fine but you know how it is....

I almost grabbed a Samsung Slimfit HD CRT this weekend for $20 but someone snagged it before me. Noone ever mentions those sets and I am aware they have some geometry issues but overall the 30 inch model I used to have was probably the best all around TV I ever owned. that and they didn't weight nearly as much as other 30'' tubes so I could actually move and maneuver it around myself to some degree.
as I said before; your best bet is to try the HD CRTs you come across.
But I'm not sure if this is allowed at Goodwills...

If not then check Craigslist. that way you'll be able to test the tvs by bringing a console and hookups.
If you ever come across a Sony XBR960, or other high-end XBR models, let me know what your impressions of it were. I'd love to get a review on these.
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Re: TV for 480P...or not?

Post by BazookaBen »

So, your 4k LCD looks good with 720p PS3 games but not 480p Gamecube games? I would think 480p would look good since the pixel density on your TV is so high. What don't you like about the picture?
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Re: TV for 480P...or not?

Post by Josh128 »

My 27" FD Trinitron Wega makes a great picture, as evidenced by the photos I posted in that thread, but it has also turned me off to flat-tube CRTs. Just as many have pointed out, it has uniformity issues that can only be helped somewhat by the service menu-- careful adjustment of the yoke and deflection magnets would probably be necessary to achieve a near perfect uniformity, if thats even possible, I suspect.
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Re: TV for 480P...or not?

Post by soviet conscript »

BazookaBen wrote:So, your 4k LCD looks good with 720p PS3 games but not 480p Gamecube games? I would think 480p would look good since the pixel density on your TV is so high. What don't you like about the picture?
My hd lcd is nothing high end. It's an 47" LG. The Wii and GC look blurry and not to sharp. This using component 480p. It looked far better on my cheapo vizo crt hd set that died a few months ago.

I don't commonly ever hear or read many people thinking 480P looks good on none CRT sets without an upscale involved.
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Re: TV for 480P...or not?

Post by NJRoadfan »

I used to game with a 32" Panasonic Tau PureFlat series 4:3 CRT HDTV (16:9 units were available too). They supported 480p and 1080i (auto switched aspect ratios). The Wii with component cables in 480p mode looked great. The only bizarre thing about that TV is I think it de-interlaced all 480i content as I never heard the characteristic flyback whine when viewing SD content. I don't recall ever trying it with 240p consoles (I have a Toshiba TIMM with native RGB input for that). The 2005 models had HDMI, while older units had DVI along with the usual assortment of composite, S-video, and component jacks.

A couple years ago these sets were dime a dozen at thrift stores and on craigslist when flat panel sets dropped in price. I haven't seen one in a thrift in a while though as most no longer take CRTs.
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Re: TV for 480P...or not?

Post by BazookaBen »

soviet conscript wrote:I don't commonly ever hear or read many people thinking 480P looks good on none CRT sets without an upscale involved.
Nah, there are ton's of recommendations in this subforum for flat panels that do well with 480p.
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Re: TV for 480P...or not?

Post by andykara2003 »

I think 'well' is a relative term when it comes to 480p and flat panels...
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Re: TV for 480P...or not?

Post by Josh128 »

The Panasonic Tau Pureflat TVs looked incredible on the showroom floor, I can confirm that-- but I never gamed on one.

BTW, also did a quick check, and theres zero HD tube sets available on CL anywhere around me, while a year ago they were still fairly common on there. Getting extremely rare...
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Re: TV for 480P...or not?

Post by FinalBaton »

Hmmm... reading forums post on the Sony KV-xxHS510, what I get is that progressive scan games (480p) are displayed at 480p.
Can someone shed some light on this for me? Maybe I got it wrong, or maybe those people are misinformed?

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/64-direct ... ratio.html

Amongst other quotes, someone states : Also, note that the line doubler is automatically disabled when you send a progressive signal to the tv. Therefore, you cannot play progressive games in 960i.
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Re: TV for 480P...or not?

Post by Fudoh »

what's your question there. Sounds like great sets. You get native 480p, 720p and 1080i and from the board entries you got two processing options for 15khz content. One likely converts to 480p, the other to 960i.
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Re: TV for 480P...or not?

Post by FinalBaton »

Fudoh wrote:what's your question there. Sounds like great sets. You get native 480p, 720p and 1080i and from the board entries you got two processing options for 15khz content. One likely converts to 480p, the other to 960i.
My question is : can a 480p signal be displayed in 480p on this set, or is it automatically linedoubled and displayed in 1080i (or 960i I guess)

i know that one guy I quoted said 480p, but not everybody that post on internet message boards have their facts correct. Just wanted to validate the info with people on here.
Plus, I read before that Hi-Scan models scale everything to 1080i, and that put the doubt in my mind
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Re: TV for 480P...or not?

Post by Fudoh »

I'm pretty sure that you get native 480p on these.

We didn't have too many Sony HD CRTs here in Europe, but on the FD Trinitron sets with 480p input that we got I successfully used a DC in brilliant NATIVE 480p.
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Re: TV for 480P...or not?

Post by FinalBaton »

Fudoh wrote:I'm pretty sure that you get native 480p on these.

We didn't have too many Sony HD CRTs here in Europe, but on the FD Trinitron sets with 480p input that we got I successfully used a DC in brilliant NATIVE 480p.
Nice!
Well there you have it, OP. Get a Sony HD CRT :D
You will have native 480p and higher resolutions as well. No need to search for an EDTV then
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Re: TV for 480P...or not?

Post by BazookaBen »

I'll mention it again because it's kinda important, playing in widescreen mode in 480p on the Sony sets does introduce input lag. All 480p signals go through a digital conversion, but for some reason the stretching algorithm is noticeably more laggy. That's why I have a a multiple 19" and 21" PC CRT's but gave away my Hi-Scan tube, the PC CRT's are true multisync.

I never owned an SFP tube, though, those are pretty gorgeous.
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