TV for 480P...or not?

[soviet conscript]

I posted parts of this over at NG forums but theres seems to be a more A/V centric crowd here so I'll ask.

I'm just having a lot of trouble finding a solution for my early 2000's needs. The PVM is great (though mine is a bit to small, only 14 inch display) for pre ps2 stuff and I have a 4k TV for anything HD era and up but it seems like getting the most from the ps2/Xbox/Wii is a slight challenge. maybe the ps2 doesn't but a large selection of Wii and Xbox games support widescreen and 480P and I'd like a TV to play them that way.

Right now I just have a Samsung CRT SDTV with component that I use for that purpose and its Okay but nothing spectacular. I wish EDTV's were more common. I've been looking at CRT HDTV's but as I only moved to this area relatively recently I don't have a buddy to help me move a 200lb TV so I'm trying to look at sets around 27 inches but it seems the big tubes are far more common.

I'm starting to wonder if a 480i image over component on a SDTV is the same or better then a 480p image on a HDTV anyways. will a CRT HDTV at 480p still mess with the image since its still a HDTV I assume there are still extra lines on the screen it needs to fill in or am I incorrect? Maybe I'm better off just grabbing a high end Sony SDTV? I've had bad experiences with Sony CRT HDTV's as in somehow lugging the 200lb things home and having them die after a month or so.

A ED tube would be the perfect solution but since they are apparently rarer then hens teeth I guess my question after all that is will a CRT HDTV still mess with and distort a 480P image since it is HD or does it still produce a better image then a SDTV at 480i?

[Fudoh]

will a CRT HDTV at 480p still mess with the image

it comes down to the quality of the scaling engine. Also the quality of your source signal. There are very good 480p signals (DC or PS2), medium ones (Cube or XBox) and really bad ones (Wii).

The good ones can look FANTASTIC on on a nice big LCD, the bad ones not so much....

[Josh128]

If you want the best combination of visual quality, weight, and 16:9 support, find a Samsung PN51/43 F4500 plasma. PS2/DC/Xbox/GC/Wii look dazzling on it in 480p. These ceased production last year, but good used models are still readily available. I have 2 51'ers and they still impress every time I use them.

http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-PN51F4500 ... =PN43F4500

If you want the ultimate CRT, find a 36" Hitachi Ultravision 36SDX88B. 200lb beast, but the most impressive CRT Ive ever seen in person. Probably going to be much harder to find one of these, but Ive seen one in the past year near me (Louisiana) on Craigslist.

http://www.amazon.com/Hitachi-36SDX88B- ... B00001Z3HG#

[bobrocks95]

I posted parts of this over at NG forums but theres seems to be a more A/V centric crowd here so I'll ask.

I'm just having a lot of trouble finding a solution for my early 2000's needs. The PVM is great (though mine is a bit to small, only 14 inch display) for pre ps2 stuff and I have a 4k TV for anything HD era and up but it seems like getting the most from the ps2/Xbox/Wii is a slight challenge. maybe the ps2 doesn't but a large selection of Wii and Xbox games support widescreen and 480P and I'd like a TV to play them that way.

Right now I just have a Samsung CRT SDTV with component that I use for that purpose and its Okay but nothing spectacular. I wish EDTV's were more common. I've been looking at CRT HDTV's but as I only moved to this area relatively recently I don't have a buddy to help me move a 200lb TV so I'm trying to look at sets around 27 inches but it seems the big tubes are far more common.

I'm starting to wonder if a 480i image over component on a SDTV is the same or better then a 480p image on a HDTV anyways. will a CRT HDTV at 480p still mess with the image since its still a HDTV I assume there are still extra lines on the screen it needs to fill in or am I incorrect? Maybe I'm better off just grabbing a high end Sony SDTV? I've had bad experiences with Sony CRT HDTV's as in somehow lugging the 200lb things home and having them die after a month or so.

A ED tube would be the perfect solution but since they are apparently rarer then hens teeth I guess my question after all that is will a CRT HDTV still mess with and distort a 480P image since it is HD or does it still produce a better image then a SDTV at 480i?

From what I understand consumer Sony HD CRTs will upscale the image (to 720p? 980i? 1080i? Someone would have to clarify there, but I know it changes based on the resolution you feed it) while HD PVMs/BVMs will leave the image unaltered. Other brands' 1080i sets probably do the same thing. You might be able to change this in the service menu, but I would think I'd have heard about it- a really late era digital CRT from Sony would have some lag but probably look amazing if it didn't alter 240p at all, given the digital geometry/convergence adjustments.

Personally I have a Panasonic plasma EDTV, the second-to-last model they made, and I'm a big fan but I can't recommend it generally. I would say it looks just as good as 480p on a PC CRT, but the lag is pretty bad from basic tests I've done (I don't actually feel it while playing, which might be related to how plasmas produce their images), there's lots of problems inherent to plasmas that I didn't know about beforehand, and it was an absolutely awful experience trying to find it. There's also the unwieldiness of having an entire display dedicated to 480p content. Personally, I don't like interpolation as I feel that an actual 480p set de-emphasizes a lot of aliasing in older 3D games compared to upscaling, but that's just my two cents.

If you're fine with the small size a PC CRT and a component to VGA adapter would look really nice. If you're leaning towards the EDTV route, I haven't ever seen any ED CRTs in America, so I'm not sure we even got them. NEC and Panasonic made EDTV plasmas, but unless you're near a big city they'll probably take you a while to find. There's also video processors you can look into that are well-suited for 480p, and lots of people think 480p looks fine on an HD set too, but I don't know about 4K.

Josh touts that Samsung plasma an awful lot, too much I might say, but there's a thread around here for it somewhere with lots of pictures in it so you can decide for yourself how you think it looks, which is really all that matters. I'd guess a lot better than your 4K set and probably comparable to your 480i Sony for still images, but that's just a guess.

[FinalBaton]

A scaler into your HDTV is an option as well. Don't know if it's something you would consider, but it needs to be mentionned (your post asks for "a solution" and doesn't state that it needs to be a display, so... here goes)

XRGB-3 or XRGB-mini aren't cheap, but they both look good on an HDTV with both a 480i and a 480p signal
(check Fudoh's page for details on how exactly each machine render 480i and 480p).

This would mean that you won't need to bring in an additional display specifically to play that era of consoles.
For some this is a good thing, but there are others would actually like to bring more displays in there home! and I totally get that! In fact if I had more space (a house) I would be in that camp lol

[soviet conscript]

A scaler into your HDTV is an option as well. Don't know if it's something you would consider, but it needs to be mentionned (your post asks for "a solution" and doesn't state that it needs to be a display, so... here goes)

XRGB-3 or XRGB-mini aren't cheap, but they both look good on an HDTV with both a 480i and a 480p signal
(check Fudoh's page for details on how exactly each machine render 480i and 480p).

This would mean that you won't need to bring in an additional display specifically to play that era of consoles.
For some this is a good thing, but there are others would actually like to bring more displays in there home! and I totally get that! In fact if I had more space (a house) I would be in that camp lol

I'm actually looking for a display solution. Just something about using a real CRT. Same reason I'm currently playing Wizardry on an actual 8088 and CGA monitor and not DOSBox.

480P pretty much looks horrible on my 4k TV. A PVM 20L5 would be great for me since it does 480P but Ive given up on finding one locally for a decent price. using a PC monitor is an interesting idea but I'm really looking for something at least 20 inches.

I could swear there were some CRT EDTV's sold here in the US. I distinctly remember my friend having one but after 5+ years of looking for one at Goodwill and not finding any I'm starting to think my memory is flawed.

[FinalBaton]

looks like there aren't many CRT EDTVs in North America.

Here are some models :
Samsung txn3245
Samsung TXM3096WHF
Panasonic CT-36SX12

[BONKERS]

With the newly announced GARO, I HIGHLY suggest you get one when it comes out and use it with a VGA CRT monitor instead!
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=55158

There are tons of CRT monitors out there capable of 480p.

[FinalBaton]

something at least 20 inches.

20 inch PC CRT monitors aren't uncommon. But yeah I prefer a screen a bit bigger than that too.

[andykara2003]

For widescreen, a 36-38" Loewe aconda with VGA card... hard to find the card tho.

[BazookaBen]

Hi-scan Sony CRT's are pretty good for 480p. They made them in 16:9 and 4:3 models, the largest one being 40 inches I think. Though there is noticeable lag in 16:9 stretch mode (since it runs 31hz signals through a digital processor). But playing shooters on the Dreamcast at 480p in 4:3 mode seemed pretty responsive.

I personally use a PC CRT for 480p stuff (and everything above 240p, actually) since they have great contrast, clear motion, and no input lag. The only problem is visible scanlines on 480p stuff, because the electron beam can only get so wide. So with PS2 games I'll actually use GSM to line double to 960p to eliminate the scanlines.

[bobrocks95]

Hi-scan Sony CRT's are pretty good for 480p. They made them in 16:9 and 4:3 models, the largest one being 40 inches I think. Though there is noticeable lag in 16:9 stretch mode (since it runs 31hz signals through a digital processor). But playing shooters on the Dreamcast at 480p in 4:3 mode seemed pretty responsive.

I personally use a PC CRT for 480p stuff (and everything above 240p, actually) since they have great contrast, clear motion, and no input lag. The only problem is visible scanlines on 480p stuff, because the electron beam can only get so wide. So with PS2 games I'll actually use GSM to line double to 960p to eliminate the scanlines.

Do you know if any of the Hi-Scan Sony's have a high-voltage regulator (reduces blooming on whites) like the KV-xxFV310 does? Or maybe just one that people generally point to as being the best Hi-Scan model?

[Ed Oscuro]

I don't think Loewe was present in the US market after 2003 (or so).

I have seen a large (34") Hitachi set which I believe had some EDTV or HDTV capability, but I don't recall why I overlooked it...but there's another brand to check out.

I just search up the model numbers of anything I encounter to see if it would be a good fit.

Do you know if any of the Hi-Scan Sony's have a high-voltage regulator (reduces blooming on whites) like the KV-xxFV310 does? Or maybe just one that people generally point to as being the best Hi-Scan model?

I don't think there's any reason to skip a Super Fine Pitch display for a Hi-Scan one. Hi-Scan denotes a lower tier set than SFP.

I'd be kind of surprised if you found enough old TVs to be able to pick and choose from models with or without a HVR, Super Fine or no.

Reportedly the 34HS420 is a Hi-Scan set with an HVR, but no idea how good it looks. The first thread on AV Forums in Google search has a user not too keen on them.

[bobrocks95]

I was under the impression that a Super Fine Pitch would mess with the signal more or look worse. I've never seen either type of HD Sony in person though, so I wouldn't really know.
The HS510 also has one if anyone is interested...

[soviet conscript]

looks like there aren't many CRT EDTVs in North America.

Here are some models :
Samsung txn3245
Samsung TXM3096WHF
Panasonic CT-36SX12

thanks for the specific models but no hits for any of them on my Craigslist or EBay which is not so encouraging.

The PC monitor option is looking promising but I dunno, just doesn't feel the same to me. I'll probably just keep an eye out for a smaller HD CRT. Possibly give Sony another shot. When I first moved here I went through 2 Sony HD CRT's. one I got from Goodwill and the other off Craigslist. both lasted about a month or so then died. screen would randomly go green and then black. usually leaving the TV off for awhile helped but the issue got progressively worse. It was just a horrible experience because both were close to 200lbs and it was only me and my GF that transported them and neither of us is very strong. it was a terrible experience.

[BazookaBen]

Yeah, I should have mentioned Super Fine Pitch. They're better than Hi-Scan in every way from what I've heard. It's just the Hi-Scans are a little easier to find.

And the color can be pretty good on the Hi-scans, you just have to get in the service menu and do quite a bit of tweaking. I eventually was able to reduce the bloom on mine and get a pretty smooth grayscale, there's a pretty helpful thread on AVSforums for the SFP tubes that mostly applies to HS tubes as well.

One problem is that I couldn't get gamma just right. The best I could do was gamma of 2.0, but I was going for 2.2.

Oh and just for the record, when you send a 480p image to a Sony HD CRT, you will in fact get a true 480p picture, it's not scaled to a different resolution. They do it by centering the 480p image inside of a 540p frame, then stretch the frame to eliminate underscan. So every pixel is represented accurately, just with some degree of input lag. If you have a PC, you can make a custom timing to create a 33.75hz 480p signal that will trick the TV into thinking it is 540p, and that way you'll have zero input lag. Good trick for older PC games and some Doujin shmups.

If you have tons of cash to burn though, your best bet for 480p consoles would be a 4k OLED. It would be pretty hard to notice scaling artifacts at that resolution.

[soviet conscript]

Yeah, I should have mentioned Super Fine Pitch. They're better than Hi-Scan in every way from what I've heard. It's just the Hi-Scans are a little easier to find.

And the color can be pretty good on the Hi-scans, you just have to get in the service menu and do quite a bit of tweaking. I eventually was able to reduce the bloom on mine and get a pretty smooth grayscale, there's a pretty helpful thread on AVSforums for the SFP tubes that mostly applies to HS tubes as well.

One problem is that I couldn't get gamma just right. The best I could do was gamma of 2.0, but I was going for 2.2.

Oh and just for the record, when you send a 480p image to a Sony HD CRT, you will in fact get a true 480p picture, it's not scaled to a different resolution. They do it by putting centering the 480p image inside of a 540p frame, then stretch the frame to eliminate underscan. So every pixel is represented accurately, just with some degree of input lag. If you have a PC, you can make a custom timing to create a 33.75hz 480p signal that will trick the TV into thinking it is 540p, and that way you'll have zero input lag. Good trick for older PC games and some Doujin shmups.

If you have tons of cash to burn though, your best bet for 480p consoles would be a 4k OLED. It would be pretty hard to notice scaling artifacts at that resolution.

hmm, I was under the impression that there was never lag with a CRT, even an HD one.

[BazookaBen]

hmm, I was under the impression that there was never lag with a CRT, even an HD one.

Yeah, it's not common knowledge, and I didn't find out until after I bought a Hi-scan Trinitron. Basically, consumer HD CRT's were made to scan at one frequency, usually 1080i(or 540p), which has a 33.75hz horizontal scan frequency. So Sony used various types of digital processing to display non-33.75hz resolutions.

480i/240p is upscaled to 960i or 480p, and displayed inside a 1080i or 540p frame (depending on your scaling method) and zoomed to eliminate underscan.
480p is displayed inside a 540p frame and zoomed.
720p is downscaled to 1080i.
1080i/540p can bypass the digital processors, giving a lag-free image. In my understanding, you have to set the bypass in the service menu for SFP tubes, and it is automatically bypassed on HS tubes.

Now keep in mind PC CRT's are certainly HD too, but they are multisync so you have zero input lag for every resolution. Which is one of the reasons I primarily play games on my PC CRT's.

[soviet conscript]

hmm, I was under the impression that there was never lag with a CRT, even an HD one.

Yeah, it's not common knowledge, and I didn't find out until after I bought a Hi-scan Trinitron. Basically, consumer HD CRT's were made to scan at one frequency, usually 1080i(or 540p), which has a 33.75hz horizontal scan frequency. So Sony used various types of digital processing to display non-33.75hz resolutions.

480i/240p is upscaled to 960i or 480p, and displayed inside a 1080i or 540p frame (depending on your scaling method) and zoomed to eliminate underscan.
480p is displayed inside a 540p frame and zoomed.
720p is downscaled to 1080i.
1080i/540p can bypass the digital processors, giving a lag-free image. In my understanding, you have to set the bypass in the service menu for SFP tubes, and it is automatically bypassed on HS tubes.

Now keep in mind PC CRT's are certainly HD too, but they are multisync so you have zero input lag for every resolution. Which is one of the reasons I primarily play games on my PC CRT's.

is this only Sony? I had a Samsung Slimfit HDTV years ago and I never noticed any lag. same with the cheapo Viso CRT HDTV I had. I did notice ghosting but not any lag, even on shumps. then again maybe I never played games that required super fine precision.

What PC CRT do you use? the problem with PC monitors is there getting harder then TV's to find and they are almost always around 12-14 inch screens which is just to small, like the PVM I have. My friend had this massive PC monitor back in college. The thing it had to be 20+ inches, weighed a ton and even had a DVI port.

[andykara2003]

Hence the Loewe Aconda with VGA Cable:

~ Large widescreen CRT as opposed to small monitor.

~ Get a pre-HD model - genuine 480p.

~ VGA mode = no processing or lag at all - 480p in, 480p out.

~ One of the best consumer CRTs ever made.

~ The card is harder to find, but the TVs are still easily available..

[soviet conscript]

Hence the Loewe Aconda with VGA Cable:

~ Large widescreen CRT as opposed to small monitor.

~ Get a pre-HD model - genuine 480p.

~ VGA mode = no processing or lag at all - 480p in, 480p out.

~ One of the best consumer CRTs ever made.

~ The card is harder to find, but the TVs are still easily available..

That indeed looks like something that would work. unfortunately none turned up in my area after a quick eBay,Craigslist,offer up search. that and it looks like a 200lb TV that I'm not sure how I would be able to transport. I'll keep an eye out though. The goodwill's here still sell CRT's and there all only $1 regardless of size of SD/HD

[BazookaBen]

is this only Sony? I had a Samsung Slimfit HDTV years ago and I never noticed any lag. same with the cheapo Viso CRT HDTV I had. I did notice ghosting but not any lag, even on shumps. then again maybe I never played games that required super fine precision.

I thought it was most consumer-grade HD CRT's but I could be wrong. I only really noticed lag in wide mode on 480p games. In 4:3 mode I couldn't notice, though I'm sure there is some amount of lag since it is being converted to digital and back. Never played at 720p enough to get a feel for it, same with 15hz signals. When I have the PC hooked up to it I'm either playing at 1080i, 540p, or some modified lower resolution with extra lines on the front and back porch to get the same timings, that way the digital processing is bypassed and it works like a traditional CRT. There is a bit of leeway too, it can sync to vertical resolutions from ~55hz to 72hz as long as the horizontal is somewhere in the range of ~33hz to 35hz.

... I really messed with this Hi-scan tube more than any person should have.

What PC CRT do you use? the problem with PC monitors is there getting harder then TV's to find and they are almost always around 12-14 inch screens which is just to small, like the PVM I have. My friend had this massive PC monitor back in college. The thing it had to be 20+ inches, weighed a ton and even had a DVI port.

I have quite a few, some Dell-branded Trinitrons, and a NEC and LaCie Diamondtron. The two Diamondtrons are 21", which is large enough for you and a friend. Leaves a little to be desired when you get 3 or 4 people in the room. They're really versatile displays when combined with the Custom Resolution Utility. You can play at a wide range of resolutions and framerates comfortably. I really wish they still made them, because I think we're still quite a ways off from Freesync compatible OLED displays, which is the only alternative I'll accept.

[kamiboy]

NEC XM29.

[andykara2003]

I think he wants widescreen. If that's not essential then this monitor is just amazing.

[BazookaBen]

I would say if 24" is large enough, the Sony FW900 would be one of the best 480p compatible widescreen displays. That thing is capable of everything from 480p to 4k (interlaced).

[kamiboy]

I see little utility in a 480p eidescreen monitor. Not many games from the 480p era offered true widescreen support. Only Wii on the wii could one expect true widescreen by default.

[BazookaBen]

I see little utility in a 480p eidescreen monitor. Not many games from the 480p era offered true widescreen support. Only Wii on the wii could one expect true widescreen by default.

Yeah, if you're mostly playing 480p-era stuff then 4:3 is the way to go.

[BONKERS]

hmm, I was under the impression that there was never lag with a CRT, even an HD one.

Yeah, it's not common knowledge, and I didn't find out until after I bought a Hi-scan Trinitron. Basically, consumer HD CRT's were made to scan at one frequency, usually 1080i(or 540p), which has a 33.75hz horizontal scan frequency. So Sony used various types of digital processing to display non-33.75hz resolutions.

480i/240p is upscaled to 960i or 480p, and displayed inside a 1080i or 540p frame (depending on your scaling method) and zoomed to eliminate underscan.
480p is displayed inside a 540p frame and zoomed.
720p is downscaled to 1080i.
1080i/540p can bypass the digital processors, giving a lag-free image. In my understanding, you have to set the bypass in the service menu for SFP tubes, and it is automatically bypassed on HS tubes.

Now keep in mind PC CRT's are certainly HD too, but they are multisync so you have zero input lag for every resolution. Which is one of the reasons I primarily play games on my PC CRT's.

is this only Sony? I had a Samsung Slimfit HDTV years ago and I never noticed any lag. same with the cheapo Viso CRT HDTV I had. I did notice ghosting but not any lag, even on shumps. then again maybe I never played games that required super fine precision.

What PC CRT do you use? the problem with PC monitors is there getting harder then TV's to find and they are almost always around 12-14 inch screens which is just to small, like the PVM I have. My friend had this massive PC monitor back in college. The thing it had to be 20+ inches, weighed a ton and even had a DVI port.

Really? I find that large ish (Bigger than 15") PC CRTs are incredibly easy to come by compared to a broadcast CRT , or a HD CRT.

[BazookaBen]

Really? I find that large ish (Bigger than 15") PC CRTs are incredibly easy to come by compared to a broadcast CRT , or a HD CRT.

I guess it depends on whether you include Hi-Scan tubes (which are nowhere close to HD, the dot-pitch makes them closer to EDTV's). If you only include actual HD tubes like the Super Fine Pitch displays, then yeah, they're about equally hard to find as a good PC CRT.

I say equally because I rarely see either on craigslist anymore. It's been over 10 years since CRT monitors and TV's were really popular, so by this point I'm thinking they're either disposed of or in enthusiast hands.

[FinalBaton]

There's a 27 inch Sony PGM in Mesa, Arizona :

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-PGM-2710-2 ... 4897.l4275

Maybe you can negotiate a lower price if you tell them that you'll pick it up