PAL retro collecting tips?

[8 1/2]

'allo chaps! I'm about to relocate from the US to London, and I'm curious if anyone has any tips for retro PAL collecting? I'm bringing with me an assortment of NA and JP NTSC consoles, as well as an NTSC crt tv.

- What are some of the regional differences to look out for?
- Do most games for NES, SNES, MD, run at 50hz?
- What happens if I put a 50hz game in a modded NTSC console on an NTSC tv?
- Are there any Euro exclusives to look out for on the 8, 16 and 32 bit gen consoles?
- Any good shops worth the trip to from London?
- Any good Euro retro cons?

Thanks in advance!

[Heavy Viper]

'ullo, guv.

1) Some consoles will have different cartridge shapes than you're used to (SNES comes to mind), and more often than not games will have different packaging.
2) If the game was manufactured for PAL systems and released in PAL territories, yes, it's intended to run at 50hz. There are exceptions; I can only really speak for the Mega Drive (Genesis), but quite a few early PAL MD games run fine on an NTSC Genesis. A lot of the later popular titles have region encoding locks, but will still run fine on a modified console.
3) When you say modded, I'm assuming region/Hz modifications. If the console is set to run at 60hz, it should run fine on an NTSC TV. You might run into issues running the console when it's set to 50hz. I'm not sure what PAL/50hz support was like for TVs in the US, even though a lot of late-model PAL CRTs had no issues with 60hz.
4) Quite a few for the Mega Drive!

I'll leave the last two for Euro/UK folk. :S

[Ghegs]

a lot of late-model PAL CRTs had no issues with 60hz.

Doesn't even need to be a late model, my Philips TV has to be nearly 20 years old and it plays 60hz just fine. Dragging a NTSC CRT TV with you seems unnecessary, unless you have some other use for it.

[TransatlanticFoe]

For PAL games on 60 Hz systems, try checking the ROM in an emulator. Often the cart includes multiregion ROMs - for example the Genesis Thunder Force III includes a PAL optimised version that runs at the correct speed if played on a PAL Mega Drive (basically it's the same game but with PAL borders). Whether anything PAL only goes the other way though... certainly isn't the case for later SMS titles due to market conditions but 16 bit titles might be okay.

I had a TV from about 1998 that was fine with 60 Hz so it's only really an issue if you have a particularly ancient CRT. So you probably don't need to drag your CRT with you.

Also we have different power standards so you'll need a transformer.

[Skykid]

Yeah: don't bother.


Excluding some rare exceptions where the US was sidestepped and Europe got an exclusive, there's no good reason to "collect" PAL games - especially where classic gaming is concerned.

In most cases 16-bit stuff was scuppered by 50hz developer laziness making them completely inferior to their US/JP counterparts. PAL is kind of bottom-of-the-barrel for collecting and you shouldn't be fooled by ebayers jacking SNES prices through the roof when they find a box that hasn't been utterly destroyed by the passage of time.

Best thing to do is keep on collecting your NTSC/JP stuff and find a 60hz compatible RGB TV asap (basically get your hands on a PVM if possible).

If you're happy with throwaway current gen 360/PS3 onward, high street stores sell used games for almost nothing, and of course these days there isn't much to complain about in terms of regional game murdering.

[LEGENOARYNINLIA]

It's true that you don't necessarily need a "late model" PAL CRT TV to display 60hz NTSC with an RGB signal, but it's a completely another story if your consoles output composite or S-video.

My Philips branded 14" CRT manufactured in West-Germany displays PAL and NTSC stuff in glorious RGB, but any other signal is displayed in black and white.

[nissling]

Thing is, with RGB there's no PAL and NTSC. There are differences in resolution (240p/480i and 288p/576i) and framerate (60Hz and 50Hz) but PAL and NTSC are used to decode the color information in lesser signals which is S-Video, composite and RF. In order to use NTSC or PAL, the monitor must be capable of handling either signals but should not be confused with pure RGB. This is the reason why RGB has been standard in France for many years since there's no point in using SECAM encoders in various video game consoles.

[hien]

Pretty much everything Skykid wrote.

It's a good time to sell PAL stuff but certainly not to buy. If there ever even was a good time to do so.

[Xyga]

There are some PAL gems here and there, but it's really hard to draw precise and meaningful lists.

Some PAL releases of Japanese games - translated - that never made it to the US.
Some with additional or fixed contents missing in the US version.
Absolute PAL~Euro exclusives (plenty, but many many shit games)

Meaning to say you could be looking for PAL games for various reasons, in any case we're speaking about very few titles on each platform.

Some examples:
PS1: Wip3out Special Edition (the ultimate Wipeout game, plenty of additional contents, fluid optimized 50Hz output, PAL exclusive)
SNES: Terranigma (good A-RPG translated, never made it to the US)
SMS: Power Strike II (best SMS shmup and among the best 8-bit shmups ever)
DC: some Dead or Alive 2 release got the additional costumes and bugfixes the US didn't
MD: Flink (The Misadventures of Flink on Sega/Mega CD) cartridge version only exists in PAL

etc etc

There are some silly reasons sometimes, take Crusader of Centy (Genesis); well the UK PAL MD release got a better English translation. That's it.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Super Turrican for the NES.

[BIL]

I'm a bit envious of PAL's Forbidden Siren 2 (PS2), which never saw NTSCU release. It's very much the exception, though. Currently the only other EU software in my library is Ninja Cop (GBA) which is pretty much identical to the US version, aside from its vastly more badass boxart.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Some vintage "safe" (if technically not exclusive) PAL buys: Gregory Horror Show, Kuru Kuru Kururin, Odin Sphere (better optimised than NTSC), Psyvariar -Complete Edition- (60 Hz mode is hidden in each game's options menu), Tokyo Road Race (offline-only Battle Gear 2 home port), World War Zero: Iron Storm (50 Hz-only, mind, but cheap and PAL-exclusive).

Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter PAL is 60 Hz, but slightly (say, "rebalanced" like RE4 or DMC3) different from NTSC, so if you need any excuse to play BoFV - it's cheap too.

Word is SoulCalibur II PAL has got different ("improved") AI, but all I can confirm is that Xbox and PS2 versions' covers look nicer to me (GameCube one looks the same as NTSC).

PS2 Ico PAL is a later build than NTSC US/C (I actually think part of the game's visual appeal comes from 240p, like that of the first Silent Hill, so it's one reason to keep the PS2 version, which in the US got pretty infamous boxart as well).

I also happen to get unexpected kicks out of Spartan: Total Warrior German voices. I believe some European countries got one-language GameCube versions because of the disc's limited data storage room, so when I purchased a German 'Cube copy, it turned out surprisingly becoming.

[8 1/2]

Wow, thanks for the information everyone. Those exclusives will be fun to hunt for. The company I'm working for is paying for the move, so the CRT is being drug across the ocean at no charge to me. :O

[Mr Halibut]

Also worth hunting down: Shinobi X for the Saturn (Euro version of Shin Shinobi Den / Shinobi Legions). AFAIK the European release was delayed by 6 months so they could completely replace the music. Alternatively just listen on youtube

[neontropics]

PAL collecting is a really annoying IMO since it kinda hurts to pick up games that run slower than their NTSC versions as well as having borders. I like having a physical object of games but when emulating actually gets me closer to the "intended" experience I'll just do that instead.

Dreamcast is amazing though because the majority of games run in 60 Hz even on PAL, plus you can get a VGA out cable that looks great on modern TV's. All GameBoys and games are region free as well.

If you want to go really old school then BBC Micro could be cool (most known for Exile and Elite, but a bunch of cool more unknown games)

I'm not really hardcore into collecting and just download Dreamcast games if they're too expensive, plus download whatever Wii or GC games I want for a hacked Wii, but Dreamcast and GameBoy are really the only retro PAL games that are enjoyable enough to collect for me.

[ZellSF]

I'm really going to echo the sentiments of "don't".

Buy Wipeout 3 SE. You're done with collecting PAL titles.

Odin Sphere and ICO had the definite PAL versions, but now ICO had a much superior NTSC release for PS3 and Odin Sphere is getting one for PS3/PS4/PSV.

For the rest you're just gambling on getting a good version when you can just import the US/JP versions and eliminate that risk.

[neorichieb1971]

Xbox/PS3/XB360 was when PAL land started to get good in terms of conversions.

As far as TV's go, most TV's in the UK will play anything you throw at it. But if you want a CRT thats a different story. Most Sony's played everything at 21" or above. I know because I bought Sony's from 1994 onwards and never had a problem. They support RGB via scart and most have composite and svideo inputs on the front under the flap. Job done.

PAL collecting is the opposite of what you should be doing.. if you see any old PAL stuff on any shelf in the UK pick it up and throw it in the nearest toilet.

Exceptions are -

Shenmue 2 - DC
Panzer Dragoon Saga - Saturn
Bomberman - Saturn

[Fudoh]

My personal favorite among the PAL exclusives is the reworked MARIO BROS version for the NES. I even have a PAL NES just for this single game.

It's based on the Kaettekita Mario Bros version on the Famicom Disc system, but without the japanese cut-scenes and advertisements. It has vastly enhanced controls making it much more playable and real fun. When Mario Bros was re-released in Europe as a "classic" release in the early 90s, we got this updated version. The game speed has been fully adapted to 50Hz, so you're getting original NTSC speed on a PAL 50Hz unit. This fact is a bit unfortunate though for all NTSC NES/FC owners, since the game is running too fast when played on a NTSC system.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Usually it's easy to find out whether or not PAL version outputs 60 Hz before you buy (the lists out there are not 100% complete or accurate, but mostly helpful they are). Harder to determine how good 50 Hz optimisation is, thus I wouldn't recommend the ones without 60 Hz option, but among those with it are some I verily would: Psyvariar -Complete Edition- PAL is 60 Hz and cheaper than NTSCJ, Gregory Horror Show PAL is 60 Hz and in English...

Oh yes, I can confirm 10,000 Bullets (PAL Tsukiyo ni Saraba) is 60 Hz too.

[LEGENOARYNINLIA]

I think the point of PAL releases usually being shit has been made clear.

I personally have nothing against PAL exclusives. Not just stuff that never came out in English in the land of the free, but games/versions that didn't come out anywhere else. I would recommend grabbing a PAL PS1 with Wipeout 3 SE, and also giving something like the ZX Spectrum a shot.

[MintyTheCat]

I find this odd in Germany that most people whom I have met only collect PAL games.

Clearly the packaging for a start is far superior for Japanese games.
I find it impossible to play PAL games that have not been optimised as the music never sounds right for Streets of Rage 2 and Sonic. I have no idea how I suffered when I was a kid with this

[LEGENOARYNINLIA]

I find this odd in Germany that most people whom I have met only collect PAL games.

They don't give a shit about how they play. They just love to collect. At least the PAL collectors I know are like that.

[MintyTheCat]

I find this odd in Germany that most people whom I have met only collect PAL games.

They don't give a shit about how they play. They just love to collect. At least the PAL collectors I know are like that.

That is some what odd. I go for quality myself. My entire Shmup collection is pretty much only Japanese editions. but I have been into this for a while now

Speaking to a mate of mine in Berlin who is 10+ years younger than me I found myself telling him that I bought most of my games 15 years back. I had no idea that prices had risen that much. This takes the fun out of it for me.

Anyone can put down a load of cash to buy a game. It is not smart, cool or anything like that to me. I hold onto the games I had as a kid and although I do not play games that often these days I always have a good time playing Shmups and Platformers. I think this is the most important aspect really to have fun playing them.

eons ago I worked out which NeoGeo AES titles I wanted to own and I stuck to that plan. I never paid too much and I took my time and I had a lot of fun playing on the NeoGeo.

Some times I wish that this Youtube cult situation of egos would simply cease to exist. The way half of them go on you would think they were all high end investors

I now feel old

[Obiwanshinobi]

I agree with George Thorogood that liver transplantation can be important, but the word's ill-fitting rock & roll (or videogames for that matter).

[8 1/2]

I've got about two weeks until my flight, so I've been grabbing up whatever retro stuff I come across in the wild because I don't really know when I'll be back in the states. My haul from the last two weeks is mostly SNES: Gradius 3, Breath of Fire 1 and 2, Beavis and Butthead and Thunder Spirits are my highlights.

Is there a good amount of retro stuff floating around in the UK, and/or Europe in general?

[TransatlanticFoe]

UK wise It's a total crapshoot as to whether a local 2nd hand game store will have retro or stop at a shitload of PS2 games. Be it chain or independent. I don't think there are many dedicated retro shops still around.

Pawn shops like Cash Converters occasionally have retro stuff floating around, otherwise it's to the local classified ads to see if anyone's offloading stuff.

[neorichieb1971]

you won't find any of those games in the wild.

Just doesn't happen. Unless you go into charity shops and find something there. I don't go in them. Besides, even if you do find a rare gem, the person selling it will know its value. It will be in a cabinet with a £120 price tag on it or something.


you could try car boot sales on Sunday mornings.

[Xan]

Incidentally I just got Pac Man World, and the PAL conversion is surprisingly flawless... with the screen adjust option it uses pretty much all of my TV. Apparently the game was done at least partly by a UK developer instead of just Namco, so that might explain a lot.

I personally wouldn't start collecting pre-5th gen PAL titles, having about 95-99% of bad conversions without any real gems inbetween would feel tiring after a while. The sound differences on NES and MD in particular add another dimension that isn't really there on later systems.

[Tarma]

Don't forget to buy a step-down transformer for all your US/Jap hardware you bring with you.

Not only do we have the PAL TV format, but we have 240v mains as opposed 110v!

As Skykid said, forget PAL for classic / retro gaming. In fact I'd say forget anything pre-PS3 / Xbox 360 on PAL. Unless you like playing games in letterbox format with slower frame rates PAL is completely inferior to NTSC.

I've lived in the UK all my life, and I pretty much abandoned PAL hardware in the mid-90's... so, yeah.

[ZellSF]

I find this odd in Germany that most people whom I have met only collect PAL games.

They don't give a shit about how they play. They just love to collect. At least the PAL collectors I know are like that.

That is some what odd. I go for quality myself. My entire Shmup collection is pretty much only Japanese editions. but I have been into this for a while now

Speaking to a mate of mine in Berlin who is 10+ years younger than me I found myself telling him that I bought most of my games 15 years back. I had no idea that prices had risen that much. This takes the fun out of it for me.

Anyone can put down a load of cash to buy a game. It is not smart, cool or anything like that to me. I hold onto the games I had as a kid and although I do not play games that often these days I always have a good time playing Shmups and Platformers. I think this is the most important aspect really to have fun playing them.

eons ago I worked out which NeoGeo AES titles I wanted to own and I stuck to that plan. I never paid too much and I took my time and I had a lot of fun playing on the NeoGeo.

Some times I wish that this Youtube cult situation of egos would simply cease to exist. The way half of them go on you would think they were all high end investors

I now feel old

It's not just Youtube personalities: people just like collecting stuff. That won't change if you take away Youtube.

Personally I'm glad they're collecting PAL games and not something that would be useful to someone else.