CRT whites - cleaner the better!

[andykara2003]

Hi Guys - quick question...

Amongst a growing hoard of CRTs, I have a fantastic 25" Loewe e3001 chassis consumer TV (last of the 50/60Hz Loewes) that hasn't had too much use and has a beautiful image. I also was very lucky to come across a virtually perfect 25" Sony CRT that has hardly had any use (under 100 hours). It's got great geometry and a noticeably sharper image than any other Sony I've come across due to it being basically new.

I had them both running at the same time today through a Keene scart splitter/amplifier and noticed that although they both have a fantastic image, the whites on the Loewe seem a bit cleaner than on the Sony. They look more like (but obviously not quite as good as) the whites on my BVM - sparkling, clean bright white.

The Sony looks a touch muted in the whites in comparison - although the colours are typically vivid. I think i've noticed this in other Sony sets as well. So in terms of colour purity, the image on my BVM looks the cleanest, then the Loewe and lastly the consumer Sony, which looks a touch muted compared to the Loewe, unable to achieve those vivid whites.

Does anyone know why this is? I think it's either just a quality/quirk of Sonys as a whole or otherwise the Sony needs calibrating. If the latter's the case then I'll be looking to getting into DIY calibration & would very much appreciate any pointers...

Cheers!

[BazookaBen]

I also was very lucky to come across a virtually perfect 25" Sony CRT that has hardly had any use (under 100 hours).

You mean somebody bought a 25" Sony and only used it for a couple weeks?

[andykara2003]

I got it from an arcade collector with a large collection of CRTs and arcade machines. He bought it from new and just never got around to using it..

[ryu]

You should be able to get a clear bright image of that Sony by calibrating it in the right way (adjusting color offset/gain, brightness and contrast).

Just remember if a tube runs at full brightness and contrast it's bound to die much sooner than otherwise those.

[andykara2003]

By colour offset/gain do you mean the colour setting in the standard menu or a setting in the service menu? On Sony TVs (and others), the standard colour setting doesn't have any effect when using RGB signals.

EDIT: Apologies - after some research I realise that you must be talking about service menu options - would you mind elaborating a bit on adjusting the color offset/gain to do this?

EDIT 2: I just contacted Ryu which helped a lot - it looks as if I'm going to get into CRT calibration - I've been putting it off for too long anyway :)

[FinalBaton]

By colour offset/gain do you mean the colour setting in the standard menu or a setting in the service menu? On Sony TVs (and others), the standard colour setting doesn't have any effect when using RGB signals.

EDIT: Apologies - after some research I realise that you must be talking about service menu options - would you mind elaborating a bit on adjusting the color offset/gain to do this?

EDIT 2: I just contacted Ryu which helped a lot - it looks as if I'm going to get into CRT calibration - I've been putting it off for too long anyway

You could also swing by the "essential service menu settings to calibrate on a Sony consumer CRT" thread we're building over here
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p1133471

It's centered around the KV-xxFV300/310, but I'm sure there's a couple of settings that will be found in your Sony also.

[viletim]

Does anyone know why this is? I think it's either just a quality/quirk of Sonys as a whole or otherwise the Sony needs calibrating. If the latter's the case then I'll be looking to getting into DIY calibration & would very much appreciate any pointers...

This is normal operation. It's called ABL (automatic beam limiting). A full white raster requires maximum current and is limited the most. This way, a lower cost HV supply can be used.

If you disabled it (probably requires a hardware mod), you will not like the geometric distortion you get when the TV's HV supply drops out of regulation.

[andykara2003]

It's centered around the KV-xxFV300/310, but I'm sure there's a couple of settings that will be found in your Sony also.

Cheers for that :) Unfortunately I don't seem to have these options in my service menu - I think because in Europe we can't get away with using consumer CRTs made as late as that because of the dreaded 100Hz and other processing. As a result, my service menu is really primitive as I stick to the pre-100Hz, pre-Wega black Sonys from around 1996-1998. Sony's service menus were horribly unintuitive at that point - I wonder if there's anyone here who knows anything about tweaking these older style menus? I daren't touch the non-geometry settings as I don't know what I'm doing.

This is normal operation. It's called ABL (automatic beam limiting). A full white raster requires maximum current and is limited the most. This way, a lower cost HV supply can be used.

Thanks! That totally explains what I've been seeing all these years, very much appreciated. As you say, it's most obvious with a mostly white screen, for example on the star selection screen in Mario 64.

My Loewe doesn't do this nearly as much & the image looks more vibrant and 'clean' as a result. I love the pre-100Hz Loewes, they seem to beat all the other consumer sets for 15Khz - I need to pick up a couple more before they all run out!

[Xyga]

I think the FV300/310 had an European equivalent only with a different part number that makes it hard to remember.
EDIT: there were several 50/60Hz Trinitrons up until 2006, 100Hz was easily avoidable.

Anyway those FV models have a 'BA' chassis quite different from the average 'FE' found in many late Trinitron consumer sets.
There are tons more settings to work with, most you won't find in your own set.

You'll need to tell which is your model number precisely, otherwise you won't find much help I'm afraid.

[andykara2003]

EDIT: there were several 50/60Hz Trinitrons up until 2006, 100Hz was easily avoidable.

Do you mean Sony sets in the European market? If so, please do substantiate this by naming any 25 inch or larger Sony consumer Trinitron released as late as 2005/2006 that is 4:3 and doesn't have 100Hz! I'm pretty positive that there aren't any.

You'll need to tell which is your model number precisely, otherwise you won't find much help I'm afraid.

Good point - it's a KV-X2500B. This has a BE3B chassis which was in a load of models at that time.

[Xyga]

EDIT: there were several 50/60Hz Trinitrons up until 2006, 100Hz was easily avoidable.

Do you mean Sony sets in the European market? If so, please do substantiate this by naming any 25 inch or larger 4:3 Sony TV released as late as 2005/2006 that doesn't have 100Hz! I'm pretty positive that there aren't any but would be very happy to find out that I'm wrong!

I've worded that wrongly; I mean not just Sony's, and not released this late but available. For instance the 29LS35B I own was bought new in 2004.
IIRC at least one other 2000's Sony series had a big 50Hz, but it could be older. I remember seeing some silver+black frame as well but not too sure 4:3 now...
There's no bloody list of European models around. Argh.
Then of course the other brands still had big 50Hz, like Samsung at least still sold big 50Hz SlimFit in 2005 (helped my neighbour buy one), also Brandt IIRC a friend bought one probably that same year or in 2004~5, and probably Philips too, Grundig, etc etc.
So yeah big 50Hz Trinitrons were still at least available if no longer manufactured in 2005/2006, and other brands had their own big 50Hz in their late produced series, 100Hz was not a fatality and actually I don't remember seeing much of those in houses, because of the slightly higher price maybe, and as far as I know people didn't really get what 100Hz was about (neither did they care about widescreen) plus if their Sony was fairly new they had no reason to buy a new one so early, all that to say until the end I've seen more 50Hz Sony's and other brand's than 100Hz as a whole.
If the exclusively 100Hz and widescreen sold 'well', for me that happened probably just in the next couple of years after 2006 while slowly clearing the stocks.

it's a KV-X2500B. This has a BE3B chassis which was in a load of models at that time.

Wow that one practically new ? You lucky dog ! *envy*
The service manual here should describe the white/color adjustment procedure(s): http://freeservicemanuals.info/servicem ... x2501d.pdf

[andykara2003]

Nice one for that :) That's definitely piqued my interest in these.. I wonder what other late 50Hz Sonys there were. 25" is my ideal size for 15Khz but there doesn't seem to be a 25" version of that model - time for some research...

For some reason I have it in my mind that the later silver Sonys weren't as good as the older curved ones. I might well be wrong though - I've heard people mention that the geometry isn't as good. I'm not overly fussy about that though, so that wouldn't put me off too much. I think I've also read/heard that the general quality went into a bit of a decline with the later silver 4:3's (in the UK at least) but I'm not too sure as it was a long time ago.. Do you know anything about that? If not, I'm definitely going to look out for one for my collection...

I'm thinking the Panasonics might be worth looking into for a later model shadow mask 50Hz as well - the E3000/E3001 Loewes are getting hard to find....


EDIT - I remembered that Fagin also had the opinion re. declining Sony quality but I haven't seen him around these parts for a while...

[Xyga]

I can't judge about the manufacturing quality, but the flat tube models sure have very hard-to-fix geometry issues.
My KV-29LS35B is a mess of geometry and convergence, and it's impossible to fix it completely through the service menu.

EDIT: in the end it's taking the dust while I'm using a late curved 25" Thomson with low mileage, no big geometry issues and easy to rotate.
Sure it's 'only' your average shadow mask...

Talking about bigger ones I believe the KV-29CL11B (2004) and KV-29SE10B (2005) sold in France were both 50Hz, need to confirm though.
EDIT: apparently the KV-29FC20B was 50Hz too, no idea which year and it doesn't seem it was sold in may countries.
Add the KV-29FX30 to the list.
The UK model names could be different, dunno.

If you're in the UK maybe you could go for a KV-25X1U, seems almost identical to your KV-X2500B though.
Frankly I believe those 25" curved are as good as consumer Trinitrons go as long as you're not looking for special features like a built-in high voltage power regulator (like the FV310's).
There was an older 27" curved Trinitron with power regulator, but I don't remember the model name...some Brit dude made a video about it but I cannot find it anymore.

[andykara2003]

Cheers - good to know. Good call re. the 25X1U - that's the same chassis as mine (BE3B) but with a nicer/more modern case design & might well be worth looking out for, for sure. The tube looks to be the more modern, less curved type - similar to the 25X5U which I have, but don't like much. Whether that's due to the FE-1 chassis or the newer style tube I don't know....

I think I'll leave the later Sonys then. To be honest, I've found it's also quite hard to find an 25" or over older type curved Sony without at least a slightly soft image and being a bit OCD about it I can't deal with that - I've been through quite a few to get this one. Unless another barely-used one comes up (unlikely), I might just hold back on the Sonys for now & keep an eye out for the Loewes - an exercise in patience!

Thanks for the info :)