Skill (split from DDP high-score thread)

[Randorama]

I think it was a 2-ALL

[Daigoro]

good topic. it makes me want to go practice. (right after a few posts, heh.)

Right on SiK.

Also, I would like to point to something written by Randorama:

http://www.free-conversant.com/gaming_journals/1137

good stuff. thanks for re-posting that.

You don't have to be Japanese to excel at manic shmups... but it helps. :/

great quote!

But that person probably doesn't know about shmups. It's such an obscure genre.

it's not all that obscure.

if you ever been to an arcade or a movie theater or more than a few convenience stores or pizza joints, you've seen or played a shmup. if you frequent any video game message board, you've heard of Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun.

its easy enough to buy (or emu) these games if you want them for home use. maybe most folks just dont get as much enjoyment from shmups as others. it takes more work to get a good payoff from shmups compaired to other genres. casual game players wont stick with a shmup for more than a few hours.

[Icarus]

it takes more work to get a good payoff from shmups compaired to other genres. casual game players wont stick with a shmup for more than a few hours.

You've hit the problem right there. Many players aren't willing to accept that there is a bit of effort that needs to be put in before you get good at these games, many just assume that immense talent will get you high scores. While a bit of natural skill is required, experience, observational skill, strategic calculation and tons of practice can get you further.

You see quite a lot of the negative attitude around here as well, not just from casual gamers.

[doctorx0079]

For those who have a hard time seeing how shmup games have physical demands as well as mental, I give you an analogy. Shmup games are a lot like ping-pong. Both kinds of games require quick reflexes and fast reaction time, as well as the ability to move fast over a small distance. I have met many people who simply are not physically capable of that. If they lost weight, practiced a lot, got some more exercise, or something, they might be able to, but they aren't interested in doing that. As they are right now, they aren't physically capable of playing ping-pong very well, or shmups either. Compared to chess, shmups have greater physical demands but less mental demands. Compared to tennis, shmups have less physical demands but (maybe) greater mental demands. Compared to ping-pong it's pretty close, maybe shmups demand a little less physical exertion and more thinking, but not everyone has the physical ability to play shmups well, especially for 30 minutes or more. And that's not considering things like concentration.

[BR1]

Now, since this is in General Chat. I have just one thing to ask you, BR1...

In this thread, you make claims that Japanese are born "talented" and yet, on another thread in Mushihimesama high score thread. You said: "Simply because a lot of good japanese players spent a lot of time and knowledge on those games."

What are you trying to say here? I'm asking you to clarify it and decide on which one it is that you're trying to say here, since you seem to be confused in posting your replies on two separate threads about skills. Make up your mind...

Edit: I'm not flaming you or anything, but I'm sassing you a bit since you seem pretty ignorant about this subject.

I don't think the two phrases are in contraposition.

I just meant that to get those results both talent and determination are needed.

I try to explain.
Of course being sorrounded by a great numeber of good players helps a lot and of course a long pratice allows everybody to improve themselves.
Nobody denies that.
But (IMO) a 748M DDP score requires a concentration, quick reflexes, coordination that not everybody has.
That's all.


I quote myself

"I'm not saying that ONLY japanese peolpe can get those scores.
I'm just saying that such a score takes (time, hearth and) a lot of talent."






ps. Guys is the second time today someone calls me "ignorant" and someone else says my thought are "bullshit" just because they don't agree with me.
I really hate polemics but I just wanna remeber everybody we're talking about videogames.
The future of the planet ISN'T involved.
Fun and respect should be...

I'm sorry but I'm not going to post in these topics anymore.
My thougths are clear and I'm not going to fight for shmups at all.

[ArrogantBastard]

Alright, I just wanted a clarification on what you said. Thank you.

[MovingTarget]

I personally believe greatness in what you do is all about dedication and motivation. Some have a head start, which may be down to their upbringing, diet, even they're genes... But I think these can all be overcome if you have the overwhelming will to succeed. It takes longer for some people to realise certain nuances of the game which cannot be explained, but if they dedicate themselves, and dont lose the motivation, then it will happen. If you really want to succeed you will learn from your mistakes.

Not including shmups, theres a few other things Ive put years of practice into, and I'm at a stage now which I thought would have been impossible for me. Confidence is important, but not arrogance...

[Nemo]

With what you said about every human discipline, yes, some are better than others, but that isn't to say (once again) that if others tried hard enough they couldn't match them. Of course sports become a different story with, as I said, physical limitation. Although while some are "naturals" at sports, I still think that others can build up to the best (except when it gets to the point of physical limitations of different people). I don't believe there are different mental limitations (besides in people who have health problems). Maybe there is? I don't know why I'm playing games then, besides to have fun.

But since playing shooters does require physical abilities (skills), physical limitation of some people is clearly evident in this medium as well.

I started playing video games when I was 2 (1990). I 1cc'ed Mushi Original and Maniac both within a few of tries. If you had asked me to do that a few years ago (if that had been possible, since the game didn't exist), I would have laughed. I am by no means a good player, but experience over the past few years has definitely allowed me to personally do things I never would have thought possible before. This is also why I think other people can do the same.

Okay, you merely 1CC'ed the game, that is nothing like achieving a WR. If you're arguing anyone can 1CC a shooter, then I would agree, however being the best of the best is no remedial task.

As far as I know, no one on this board is a WR player, I'm not either, but in the absence of presence of there being one, I know not "anyone" can reach this status. Surely people here have played games near or just as much as WR players only to not achieve their feats. I've heard people argue this is mainly due to the Japanese arcade culture, I agree communities and environments can nourish talent and excellence, but they can't turn weeds into roses. Surely there are westerners with the skills (there's that word again) necessary to compete with the best in Japan if given the same nourishment, but these are only a select few (just like there is only a select few in Japan who create these records). And no one is denying the fact that tremendous practice is still necessary, as it is with becoming the best at anything.

[sikraiken]

With what you said about every human discipline, yes, some are better than others, but that isn't to say (once again) that if others tried hard enough they couldn't match them. Of course sports become a different story with, as I said, physical limitation. Although while some are "naturals" at sports, I still think that others can build up to the best (except when it gets to the point of physical limitations of different people). I don't believe there are different mental limitations (besides in people who have health problems). Maybe there is? I don't know why I'm playing games then, besides to have fun.

But since playing shooters does require physical abilities (skills), physical limitation of some people is clearly evident in this medium as well.

The physical limitations for shooters are not comparable to the ones for sports. Shooters are more mental than anything. Physical limitations for sports gets to the point of extremes. "Skill" is not a physical limitation. What physical limitations do you exactly think hinder any one person from achieving great scores?

I started playing video games when I was 2 (1990). I 1cc'ed Mushi Original and Maniac both within a few of tries. If you had asked me to do that a few years ago (if that had been possible, since the game didn't exist), I would have laughed. I am by no means a good player, but experience over the past few years has definitely allowed me to personally do things I never would have thought possible before. This is also why I think other people can do the same.

Okay, you merely 1CC'ed the game, that is nothing like achieving a WR. If you're arguing anyone can 1CC a shooter, then I would agree, however being the best of the best is no remedial task.

I was just stating something about experience, much like BR1 did. I wasn't trying to say, "hey, these accomplishments I've presented make me capable of world record material!" I'm saying how experience has changed me. However, I know I am capable of world record material, and it's not because of those 1CCs on shooters. It's because I know everyone is capable.

As far as I know, no one on this board is a WR player, I'm not either, but in the absence of presence of there being one, I know not "anyone" can reach this status. Surely people here have played games near or just as much as WR players only to not achieve their feats. I've heard people argue this is mainly due to the Japanese arcade culture, I agree communities and environments can nourish talent and excellence, but they can't turn weeds into roses. Surely there are westerners with the skills (there's that word again) necessary to compete with the best in Japan if given the same nourishment, but these are only a select few (just like there is only a select few in Japan who create these records). And no one is denying the fact that tremendous practice is still necessary, as it is with becoming the best at anything.

That's too bad that you don't think anyone on this board is a WR player. There are players here more than capable of having world records (I'm beginning to feel like a broken record). To be honest, I think any of the players here are capable. Will most of them ever achieve such? I doubt it, because most aren't willing to go all out. I guarantee you that no one here has put in as much time as WR players WHILE also trying to focus heavily on what they need to be doing in the game. WR players don't just hop on a game and 45min later say "hey I broke the record". But, time alone doesn't get you the record. I think Rando says it best, "Don't forget, you get better with time.How much, it's up to you:if you have method, you can go from 0 to 100% in one year, because your method will give you 10% per month.If you're methodless,you'll just repeat the same actions without a clue, until time runs out."

I wish we could throw one of the guys you think has no chance of ever producing a world record into a group of world record players from Japan. I'd like to see how they would come out of that.

Stop with this "skill" nonsense, skill on shooters depends on experience; it isn't some God-given gift. If you don't believe you are capable of producing a world record, that's your loss.

[Icarus]

Stop with this "skill" nonsense, skill on shooters depends on experience; it isn't some God-given gift. If you don't believe you are capable of producing a world record, that's your loss.

I know I'll never be able to get a WR, but I also know from experience what my limitations are. Consistency. Poor control. Lack of confidence in certain areas. But I'll try my best, and I'd be happy with around 60-70% of the known WR or absolute maximum, if I know I gave it 110%.

I think we have roughly the same amount of playing experience, SiK - I've been playing since I was six, I'm 24 now - but your records are far greater than mine. Explain that. ^_-

[Nemo]

The physical limitations for shooters are not comparable to the ones for sports. Shooters are more mental than anything. Physical limitations for sports gets to the point of extremes. "Skill" is not a physical limitation. What physical limitations do you exactly think hinder any one person from achieving great scores?

Do you realize how many sports there are? Let's take golf for instance, surely this game would appear much more mental than physical, yet can everyone become a world class golfer? Of course not. Besides the mental discipline (which not everyone can develop) it also requires physical skills like shooters do such as hand-eye coordination, dexterity, and technique.

I was just stating something about experience, much like BR1 did. I wasn't trying to say, "hey, these accomplishments I've presented make me capable of world record material!" I'm saying how experience has changed me. However, I know I am capable of world record material, and it's not because of those 1CCs on shooters. It's because I know everyone is capable.

I realize that, but I'm saying your antedoctal evidence proves nothing on the point because you haven't achieved WRs. Yet, you say you know you're capable, simply because you've assured yourself of this from some self-created ideal. And perhaps you are capable, who's to say what your skill level is, but simply saying somehting is true because you say it is, doesn't make it so.

That's too bad that you don't think anyone on this board is a WR player.

Why? No one here is.

There are players here more than capable of having world records (I'm beginning to feel like a broken record). To be honest, I think any of the players here are capable.

You keep saying the words, but they have no value or meaning. I can say, "I think everyone here is a Ninja Turtle", and just because I've convinced myself of it, does that make it true? Of course not.

Will most of them ever achieve such? I doubt it, because most aren't willing to go all out. I guarantee you that no one here has put in as much time as WR players WHILE also trying to focus heavily on what they need to be doing in the game.

Huh? What else would they be doing than focusing on what needs to be done in the game?

WR players don't just hop on a game and 45min later say "hey I broke the record". But, time alone doesn't get you the record. I think Rando says it best, "Don't forget, you get better with time.How much, it's up to you:if you have method, you can go from 0 to 100% in one year, because your method will give you 10% per month.If you're methodless,you'll just repeat the same actions without a clue, until time runs out."

Rando's statement is self-defeating because he admits methodless play is fruitless, yet developing method takes skill, so not everyone can achieve the same things and create methods necessary for WRs.

I wish we could throw one of the guys you think has no chance of ever producing a world record into a group of world record players from Japan. I'd like to see how they would come out of that.

There's no "woe is me" coming from me, I could state I do believe I'm capable of WRs, but why look like a fool when I haven't done anything in that realm.

[Rob]

Why? No one here is.

I can't wait until Stahlfeder comes around and puts you in your place!

Huh? What else would they be doing than focusing on what needs to be done in the game?

Messing around or inefficiently figuring it out for themselves or the shmups forum favorite "having fun."

[Dale]

I bellieve anyone capable of anything maybe because I,m over positive or ignorant even if I,m wrong the thought of a getting a WR is a great motivator even if it,s never accomplished it will probaly bring out many personal bests or other accomplishments in that game in your quest of achieving a WR, so there,s nothing wrong with believing in youself or looking to that as your goal.