Ikaruga is actually a really good game

[Erppo]

Almost every single boss attack in DOJ has some random element to it.

[Squire Grooktook]

Hmmmm, I see. I fiended DOJ and Ketsui for like 3 months straight, but that was like 2-3 years ago when I wasn't as good, so I wouldn't be surprised if I missed something. Everything looked the same each time, but it doesn't really take a lot to throw off a route anyway, one minor rng element is enough.

How would you guys rank Cave games in terms of rng bullets? I'm most experienced with Dangun Feveron (both scoring and survival), and that game has a few noticeably random boss attacks, but the stages are 90-95% static and controllable from what I can tell.

[Giest118]

How would you guys rank Cave games in terms of rng bullets?

DDP has shitloads of RNG on pretty much all of its bosses, to varying degrees. A few enemies also spit randomized bullet sprays. In my experience DDP has more RNG than any other Cave shmup, although someone else might know of another example.

[Erppo]

Guwange.

DDP and DOJ are probably more random than DFK and SDOJ.

[mastermx]

Yeah ika is unique. When I cleared it on normal I didn't have to sight read and dodge bullets. Most of the game you just need to know when to switch.

Either you 'cleared' it with continues or I'm calling this statement bullshit.

I understand that you like Ikaruga but calm down and I'll explain the statement. Chill, I like Ikaruga too.

OK I did sight read during some segments of the game to dodge, but nowhere near as much as most other shmups. The last boss is my favourite part of the game for that reason. Tageri is one of the best moments in shmup history.

[CWM]

How would you guys rank Cave games in terms of rng bullets?

DDP has shitloads of RNG on pretty much all of its bosses, to varying degrees. A few enemies also spit randomized bullet sprays. In my experience DDP has more RNG than any other Cave shmup, although someone else might know of another example.

Are you positive everything you perceive as RNG is not actually just complicated static and aimed stuff? I've had some experiences recently that make me very careful about this kind of thing, as you can't actually conclusively determine something to be RNG without some very specific testing. For example, the third pattern of the Stage 6 boss in DDP looks random, but it's static and only moves with your position somewhat.

I would agree that DDP certainly feels more chaotic than a lot of Cave's later games, but that doesn't necessarily imply randomness. Which is also why I disagree with Squire Grooktook's "No RNG -> No dodging" inference. It's certainly possible to design deterministic bullet patterns that are nevertheless chaotic and require a lot of sightreading and on-the-fly dodging.

[Eaglet]

It's certainly possible to design deterministic bullet patterns that are nevertheless chaotic and require a lot of sightreading and on-the-fly dodging.

Garegga's Mad Ball is a good example of this as the base attack patterns are gonna be the same every time but the combination (boss movement + attack combinations) will most likely be different every time.

[Erppo]

I believe the only actually random thing about the second half of DDP st5 are the patterns the medium size tanks in the middle fire (also the exact distribution of the bullets in the spam the buildings shoot, but if you're micrododging those you're doing it wrong). Nevertheless the part is so chaotic that I doubt it can be routed exactly so it's quite random in practice. You can still route it to the extent of making it a lot more reliable than just flailing around it. This kind of pseudo-randomness is very common in Cave besides the real actual randomness (which is often more concentrated on the bosses).

[Giest118]

Are you positive everything you perceive as RNG is not actually just complicated static and aimed stuff? I've had some experiences recently that make me very careful about this kind of thing, as you can't actually conclusively determine something to be RNG without some very specific testing. For example, the third pattern of the Stage 6 boss in DDP looks random, but it's static and only moves with your position somewhat.

I would agree that DDP certainly feels more chaotic than a lot of Cave's later games, but that doesn't necessarily imply randomness. Which is also why I disagree with Squire Grooktook's "No RNG -> No dodging" inference. It's certainly possible to design deterministic bullet patterns that are nevertheless chaotic and require a lot of sightreading and on-the-fly dodging.

I'm familiar with the phenomenon. In terms of their effect on gameplay, "true randomness" and "deterministic chaos" are at least somewhat interchangeable. The effect is essentially the same: it's not exactly the same each time you play.

[Squire Grooktook]

I think the determination thing depends on how tight the route needs to be. If it needs to be pixel/frame perfect (aka TAS level execution) to avoid substantial change to the patterns layout, then it might as well be random. But otherwise if a static route can be followed, it eventually will be followed.

OK I did sight read during some segments of the game to dodge, but nowhere near as much as most other shmups.

Maybe not Cave (or at least the ones we're talking about, I don't see much rng/dodging in Dangun outside of a few bosses) but define most. Do you sight read more then in an Irem shmup? Psyikyo? Seibu?

[Cagar]

Yeah ika is unique. When I cleared it on normal I didn't have to sight read and dodge bullets. Most of the game you just need to know when to switch.

Either you 'cleared' it with continues or I'm calling this statement bullshit.

I understand that you like Ikaruga but calm down and I'll explain the statement. Chill, I like Ikaruga too.

OK I did sight read during some segments of the game to dodge, but nowhere near as much as most other shmups. The last boss is my favourite part of the game for that reason. Tageri is one of the best moments in shmup history.

I wasn't even heated and I don't even like Ikaruga that much.
Still in my personal (but very objective) opinion, Ikaruga is one of the most well designed shmups ever and it annoys me how people refuse to play and appreciate it because of arbitrary misinformation and utter close-mindedness.

[mastermx]

OK I did sight read during some segments of the game to dodge, but nowhere near as much as most other shmups.

Maybe not Cave (or at least the ones we're talking about, I don't see much rng/dodging in Dangun outside of a few bosses) but define most. Do you sight read more then in an Irem shmup? Psyikyo? Seibu?

That's a very good point. Perhaps I am judging Ikaruga on cave and modern bullet hells too much.

I am not always wary of patterns that are rng and ones that are not. So sometimes I may think patterns in other shmups are rng when they are not. I just know that I am dodging bullets or herding them, and that feels good.

[MintyTheCat]

I remember well when it was first released. I bought three copies from Japan directly the day it was released.

I then bought a DC just to be able to play it. Back in those times they were selling DCs for $80 new as the DC was on its way out.

It is a different sort of Shmup and it added something that I had not up to that point seen. It felt very oriental in its design and concept. It asks the player to play in accord and it makes you play with a different outlook.

I found it to be a polished and beautiful Shmup with some interesting symbolism. I actually prefer it to Radient-Silvergun as a Shmup to play. The levels vary in that some made me feel claustrophobic and some required exact positioning and timing. The flipping potential mechanism was integral to how you understand the game itself. I think it is a great Shmup.

[Giest118]

I wasn't even heated and I don't even like Ikaruga that much.
Still in my personal (but very objective) opinion, Ikaruga is one of the most well designed shmups ever and it annoys me how people refuse to play and appreciate it because of arbitrary misinformation and utter close-mindedness.

Actually, I refuse to play it because it isn't fun. It is well-designed, though.

[MintyTheCat]

To add something that I cannot see has been added:

ikaruga gets the closest to any Shmup that I have seen or played to traditional Japanese arts and is reminiscent of martial arts in particular. It demands balance and has the player utilising two opposite poles or 'modes' in order to achieve and sustain this balance.

Very simple and profound and yet highly complex. It actually teaches the player something and to me at least it does not feel like it wants the player to be aggressive.
The final boss in Radient-Silvergun was a step towards that too. You cannot help but feel that the developers had something in mind.

I have to say that it would have been unlikely to have come from any other culture but Japan.

[kid aphex]

As far as I'm concerned, Ikaruga is about as close to ART as a VIDEOGAME has ever gotten.

It also happens to be packaged as a pretty competent, energetically charged STG.

[kid aphex]

To add something that I cannot see has been added:

ikaruga gets the closest to any Shmup that I have seen or played to traditional Japanese arts and is reminiscent of martial arts in particular. It demands balance and has the player utilising two opposite poles or 'modes' in order to achieve and sustain this balance.

Very simple and profound and yet highly complex. It actually teaches the player something and to me at least it does not feel like it wants the player to be aggressive.
The final boss in Radient-Silvergun was a step towards that too. You cannot help but feel that the developers had something in mind.

I have to say that it would have been unlikely to have come from any other culture but Japan.

Brilliant post.