Cave x Steam teaser!

[monouchi]

Aren't CRTs for pointless snobs these days?

Get the fuck out.

Seriously- who is going to play a Steam game on a CRT?

How would they even do so?

I will.

[STG4WD]

Our main concern should be about correct speed and lag, if they get that right it'll be great already !

Ok I think this is fair.

Speed and lag to be correct in the core game. I'll pay extra for DLC retro filters with scanlines

[Hardbody]

Thanks to every1 involve for making this happen. I dont care the price, even if it was 50 bones, id still buy it. Im hoping the release and reception is great and they release more cave games to steam! And hopefully in the future they will continue to develope more stgs to the platform and or arcade again!

[Some-Mist]

Aren't CRTs for pointless snobs these days?

Get the fuck out.

Seriously- who is going to play a Steam game on a CRT?

How would they even do so?

a downscaler (e.g. extron emotia which will downscale the signal to 240p). vga hookup from the computer to the emotia and rgb or composite out.

or something like an nec xm29 that has vga input.

[qmish]

All your "CRT Shaders" and other attempts of scanline imitation are raping my eyes.

[Some-Mist]

kinda hard not to have fun playing around with CRT monitors when you already have a couple for supergun+pcb/retro setups.

[Xyga]

All your "CRT Shaders" and other attempts of scanline imitation are raping my eyes.

Effective CRT simulation is useless on standard 60Hz and HD displays LCD's.
It works decently only on higher-than-HD, very fast if not quasi-instant response, preferably with strobing, displays.
Also it is very source and settings sensitive.
Most people take their average PC with average lcd monitor and launch any shader with heavy requirements and completely inappropriate default settings, then come claim 'this sucks' on boards.
People just don't know how demanding it really is.
Actually it's not a thing of 'today' except for those who are ready to put quite the time and money into it to see what it really can do.
Time and money they could spend on actual CRT's yeah...but we do things because we can. I'd love to test CRT simulation on a huge-ass 4K OLED, why ? BECAUSE ! *finger*

[Strikers1945guy]

The true beauty of the art in these games should be reserved only for those who can play ultra mode. Steam ports can make this dream a reality.

:^)

Yeah... 95% of people who buy the steam port will try ultra once, get kicked in the balls, and never touch it again. Which is a shame as its definitely the most fun.

[Some-Mist]

The true beauty of the art in these games should be reserved only for those who can play ultra mode. Steam ports can make this dream a reality.

:^)

Yeah... 95% of people who buy the steam port will try ultra once, get kicked in the balls, and never touch it again. Which is a shame as its definitely the most fun.

as soon as they see the floating islands.

[qmish]

People just don't know how demanding it really is.

Still i look at those threads where people place those ugly as hell BLURRED BLOOMED PSYCHOTIC images as "results" and that's enough to never touch this shit.

Maybe you'll answer "you can't judge it like this, you need to see it in motion". But. What's the point, then?

[Xyga]

People just don't know how demanding it really is.

Still i look at those threads where people place those ugly as hell BLURRED BLOOMED PSYCHOTIC images as "results" and that's enough to never touch this shit.

Maybe you'll answer "you can't judge it like this, you need to see it in motion". But. What's the point, then?

Because...it moves ?
And that's the main problem actually, because it's not too hard to make still images look good (we don't see many of those around though), disregard the psycho bloomed stuff, it doesn't have to be like that but people are just messing up with stuff at random or simply have the wrong idea.
IMHO the greatest challenge with current criticism is bias that comes from actual experience with different kinds of CRT's.
Clearly many who post their settings either have very little experience, or bad memories, or in some cases have decided a single type of CRT is the 'right one' and everything else's shit.
With that and improper flat panel displays to work on it's no surprise those who have been playing on CRT's most of their life only see shit (because in most cases it is I give you that), but blame people, not the actual idea and means which are actually quite valid, only very demanding, I insist on that.

[jepjepjep]

I don't know how you'd get something to look like this on a LCD monitor.

[qmish]

Still, it looks like you have to be extreme.

- either you have actual CRT (and a good one)
- either you have VERY GOOD modern monitor (where those imitations really work)

And then CRT band comes in and says to !@#$ off everyone who spend his last money for PCB but cant afford old good CRT / doesnt have space in a room / etc etc reasons and so they're miserable coz they try to use it with modern monitors

I don't know how you'd get something to look like this on a LCD monitor.

Wow. This can be used to teach about "lines. not pixels. period."

I also think that taking photos of games on CRT is the only real way to have good images of old games on something like 4K LCD. Because if you upscale your 320x224 or smth screenshot to 3200x2240 or smth you'll end up with total nonsense. The question is how to take those photos without loosing colours/tone/form

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

It is not "and a good one" for CRT, a shitty one works fine, just use S-video if you are in the states and a cheap shitty tv from a pawn shop looks fabulous. A 20 dollar tv looks better than every fake effect ever made.

[qmish]

Still sound like you're ordering people

Play those games with CRT or die

[Xyga]

Pictures are useless for work in most cases, the only really efficient way is to set up everything while doing constant live side-by-side comparison with actual CRT's, which is what I've been doing for a while, and how I've realized I'll be wasting my time as long as I don't own a display that's at least a little bit worthy of the task.
It is as you say, we have to be rather extreme.

@jepjepjep: I do but not on a LCD (also that pic isn't very clear I'd need a better one to see exactly what I'm aiming at, for identification), we'd need very high contrast and brightness and high resolution. Which is why OLEDs are becoming very interesting.
The question about motion is there though; we know those have quasi-instant response, but that doesn't tell much about the actual motion performance @60Hz...

Anyway that's quite the thread derailment again.

@MMS: agreed many cheap crt's are great too, but RGB please (or transcoded YUV).

[Giest118]

Wow, that Mega Man screenshot is literally the most hideous thing I've ever seen. Don't do that to Cave's graphics, that would be a travesty.

[qmish]

Pictures are useless

Sorry i have madness about how the hell get good images of old games to represent their history and legacy on today cruel days of UltraHD or whatever where your 240p image is less than your finger.

better than every fake effect ever made.

And that's why i'm saying.

Don't try all those scanlines and whatever on your LCDs, dammit. The problem is that the more resolution your monitor has the less good it looks on it.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

Still sound like you're ordering people

Play those games with CRT or die

I couldn't care less what people do in the privacy of their own rooms, I just think it's funny people making effort to look like a 20 dollar monitor when you can just pay 20 dollars. To the point where I'd make fun of it and/or remind people there is this other option. For 20 bucks.

[STG4WD]

I'm running say, Harmful Park from the Japanese PSN out of my PS3 at 480p HDMI and into a Mini Framemeister which gives me an upscaled pic with scanlines at 1080p.

It looks f*cking amazing on my flat screen HDTV.


Cannot recommend it enough, but I think it sucks that this goodness costs hunreds of dollars to achieve. Whatever the Framemeister is doing, Cave/Degica should be coding this into any 240p games they release. Please!

[HydrogLox]

... cave should have some sort of poll on their website or somewhere asking people what port they want most.

I don't think Cave is really interested in that information. First, all the results are limited to the people who find and take the poll which isn't necessarily the same group of people who end up buying the games (i.e. the group of people Cave is actually interested in). Second, Cave is looking for games that have the highest potential customer base while requiring the least amount of porting effort. What has been going on with Treasure is an interesting parallel - their Xbox Live Arcade games:

• Ikaruga 2008-04-09
• Bangai-O HD: Missile Fury 2011-05-11
• Radiant Silvergun 2011-09-14
• Guardian Heroes 2013-04-02

versus the Treasure games that have made it to Steam:

• Gunstar Heroes 2011-01-26 published by Sega
• Ikaruga 2014-02-18 published by Treasure

If Cave is going to act in a similar fashion to Treasure then Mushihimesama HD is going to be the only Cave game on Steam for a long while. Furthermore look at their choice for their first Steam release - two traits jump out:

1. Already ported to Xbox 360.
2. Release was NTSC-J region-locked AND not released in other regions.

"Already ported to Xbox 360" probably translates to a relatively easy (though far from effortless) port to Steam/PC. An exclusively region-locked release would leave the global market the "least saturated" in Cave's eyes. So if there are any further releases from Cave to Steam it is likely that priority titles would "already be ported to Xbox 360" but "released exclusively (region-locked) to the NTSC-J region".

What does this mean for other titles that people have been wishing for? Well, if a title had a region-free release OR was released in multiple regions it has to go to the end of the line - that includes "Mushihimesama Futari", "Espgaluda II", "MMP/PS", "DDP SDOJ", "Guwange", "Deathsmiles", "DDP DFK", and "Akai Katana". "Deathsmiles II X" is a bit in a gray area as it was released unlocalized in the NA marketplace. It is possible that fan response may push the odd title ahead in the queue - but that response cannot come from just a "vocal minority" as it needs to convince Cave that "double-dipping" isn't just exceptional behavior practiced by a few eccentrics.

"DDP DOJ" and "Ketsui" are in a category of their own. Cave licensed these to Mages/5pb.Games. The terms of the license are unclear to the public and its probably going to take lawyers (i.e. money) to figure things out. Even if the license leaves Cave free to do a Steam port, Cave still doesn't own the Xbox 360 port codebase as a starting point (which increases the porting effort) - Mages does. In all likelihood a Steam port would have to come from Mages, not Cave. Ketsui would be an unlikely Steam release after it's flatline PS3 release (which was also region-free) and the codebase of the DDP DOJ Xbox 360 port is probably still a mess which could make it quite unattractive for a "quick and dirty" port. So for the time being both "DDP DOJ" and "Ketsui" could be caught in eternal Steam limbo.

Finally there are the games that never had an Xbox 360 release (like "ESP Ra.De.", "Dangun Feveron", "Progear", etc.). There may be a reason these games never had an Xbox 360 release like licensing issues with past publishers. But just the fact that there isn't an Xbox 360 port available to use as a basis for a "quick and dirty" PC port puts games in this category even further down the queue. Basically the revenue stream from Steam would have to dwarf that from Cave's usual iOS/Android trinkets to motivate Cave to give a Steam release to a game in this category.

Cave/Degica should be coding this into any 240p games they release.

Gulti did exactly that for the Xbox 360 Raiden Fighter Aces Anthology - and we are all grateful for it. But I don't think it ultimately benefited Gulti as a company ... so unfortunately features like that tend to be treated as expensive "fan service" without monetary reward.

[Strikers1945guy]

Still sound like you're ordering people

Play those games with CRT or die

For a $20 games I mean play it on the worst looking monitor you have who cares it's $20.

If you fork out hundreds of dollars to own the game the proper way but then run the crappiest set up on a crappy monitor it defeats the purpose. Why buy a Ferrari and plop a Honda Civic engine in it?

[DestroyTheCore]

... cave should have some sort of poll on their website or somewhere asking people what port they want most.

I don't think Cave is really interested in that information. First, all the results are limited to the people who find and take the poll which isn't necessarily the same group of people who end up buying the games (i.e. the group of people Cave is actually interested in). Second, Cave is looking for games that have the highest potential customer base while requiring the least amount of porting effort. What has been going on with Treasure is an interesting parallel - their Xbox Live Arcade games:

• Ikaruga 2008-04-09
• Bangai-O HD: Missile Fury 2011-05-11
• Radiant Silvergun 2011-09-14
• Guardian Heroes 2013-04-02

versus the Treasure games that have made it to Steam:

• Gunstar Heroes 2011-01-26 published by Sega
• Ikaruga 2014-02-18 published by Treasure

If Cave is going to act in a similar fashion to Treasure then Mushihimesama HD is going to be the only Cave game on Steam for a long while. Furthermore look at their choice for their first Steam release - two traits jump out:

1. Already ported to Xbox 360.
2. Release was NTSC-J region-locked AND not released in other regions.

"Already ported to Xbox 360" probably translates to a relatively easy (though far from effortless) port to Steam/PC. An exclusively region-locked release would leave the global market the "least saturated" in Cave's eyes. So if there are any further releases from Cave to Steam it is likely that priority titles would "already be ported to Xbox 360" but "released exclusively (region-locked) to the NTSC-J region".

What does this mean for other titles that people have been wishing for? Well, if a title had a region-free release OR was released in multiple regions it has to go to the end of the line - that includes "Mushihimesama Futari", "Espgaluda II", "MMP/PS", "DDP SDOJ", "Guwange", "Deathsmiles", "DDP DFK", and "Akai Katana". "Deathsmiles II X" is a bit in a gray area as it was released unlocalized in the NA marketplace. It is possible that fan response may push the odd title ahead in the queue - but that response cannot come from just a "vocal minority" as it needs to convince Cave that "double-dipping" isn't just exceptional behavior practiced by a few eccentrics.

"DDP DOJ" and "Ketsui" are in a category of their own. Cave licensed these to Mages/5pb.Games. The terms of the license are unclear to the public and its probably going to take lawyers (i.e. money) to figure things out. Even if the license leaves Cave free to do a Steam port, Cave still doesn't own the Xbox 360 port codebase as a starting point (which increases the porting effort) - Mages does. In all likelihood a Steam port would have to come from Mages, not Cave. Ketsui would be an unlikely Steam release after it's flatline PS3 release (which was also region-free) and the codebase of the DDP DOJ Xbox 360 port is probably still a mess which could make it quite unattractive for a "quick and dirty" port. So for the time being both "DDP DOJ" and "Ketsui" could be caught in eternal Steam limbo.

Finally there are the games that never had an Xbox 360 release (like "ESP Ra.De.", "Dangun Feveron", "Progear", etc.). There may be a reason these games never had an Xbox 360 release like licensing issues with past publishers. But just the fact that there isn't an Xbox 360 port available to use as a basis for a "quick and dirty" PC port puts games in this category even further down the queue. Basically the revenue stream from Steam would have to dwarf that from Cave's usual iOS/Android trinkets to motivate Cave to give a Steam release to a game in this category.

[Giest118]

Cave should just release every game ever made on Steam whether or not they actually made it or have any means of doing so.

Then they'll get some dollars or whatever.

[Bananamatic]

Why buy a Ferrari and plop a Honda Civic engine in it?

to pick up girls

[jepjepjep]

Wow, that Mega Man screenshot is literally the most hideous thing I've ever seen. Don't do that to Cave's graphics, that would be a travesty.

It's zoomed way in with a 36 megapixel camera. In real life it looks great. The point is that the crt look is really hard to achieve. A simple scan line overlay doesn't come close

I'm running say, Harmful Park from the Japanese PSN out of my PS3 at 480p HDMI and into a Mini Framemeister which gives me an upscaled pic with scanlines at 1080p.

It looks f*cking amazing on my flat screen HDTV.


Cannot recommend it enough, but I think it sucks that this goodness costs hunreds of dollars to achieve. Whatever the Framemeister is doing, Cave/Degica should be coding this into any 240p games they release. Please!

I agree the framemeister looks really good for low res content on lcds. The lag for me is killer though. Would be awesome if they did the same scaling in the game engine.

[d3vak]

Holy shit, we shall all buy their Steam releases if we don't want to buy a stupid XbOne.

BUYBUYBUYBUYBUYBUYBUYBUYBUYBUYBUYBUYBUYBUYBUYBUYBUYBUYBUYBUYBUY...

[Special World]

"It may depend on interest" - Capcom

[Strikers1945guy]

Holy shit, we shall all buy their Steam releases if we don't want to buy a stupid XbOne.

BUYBUYBUYBUYBUYBUYBUYBUYBUYBUYBUYBUYBUYBUYBUYBUYBUYBUYBUYBUYBUY...

TRIPLE DIP TRIPLE DIP

[Blackbird]

1) Mushihimesama Futari (because awesome)

2) ESP Ra De (because awesome AND never ported)

3) ESP Galuda (because good for beginners but also deep)

4) Ketsui (because... Lockshots)

5) Dodonpachi (because DO-DO-DO-DO-DO-DO-DO... DODONPACH!!!)

I like this list a lot actually.

Mushi Futari - Just a really good game. Dunno about the rest of the forums, but my personal favorite.

ESP.Ra.De - It's a solid game and has never been ported from the arcades.

Espgaluda - The beautiful graphics, fantasy theme, and fun bullet-time mechanics would go over well with Steam users, I think.

Ketsui - Another entry in the "it's just a really good game" category. One of CAVE's best, would be semi-easy to port since it's on 360.

DDP - Iconic, and I think a lot of you will agree that we still haven't really gotten the definitive console port of this game (just ask Prom what he thinks about the accuracy of the Saturn version).

Don't take this list as an indication of what will happen, just my personal thoughts on the idea.