Ikaruga is actually a really good game

[Squire Grooktook]

Been meaning to make this thread for a while, figured now was as good a time as any since I cleared it awhile ago.

I think Ikaruga gets a really bad rap from shmups farm for really shallow reasons that only prove how close-minded and unwilling to try new things a lot of people are. The game isn't hated or anything (at least not as much these days), but it's not hard to see that anytime something positive about the game is said, you can bet some asshole is gonna be ready to grumble about "puzzle shooters" or whatever.

I think it's pretty natural that Ika is not for everyone (not that any game can be for everyone). People who are content to play nothing more then Ikeda inspired games are naturally going to have to step outside of their comfort zone to enjoy it (for me it's a breath of fresh air). What bugs me most though, is that many of the complaints about Ikaruga feel...really hypocritical and half baked. In my time with it, I felt most of the arguments against it fell part midway through.

People complaining about too much memorization or rigid scoring systems, and then proclaiming Dodonpachi to be their favorite game, is like saying "I hate anime" and then continuously jacking off to hentai for 2 days straight. In some ways the nature of memorization is different between these two titles (or any two shmup you care to name), but not nearly to the extent that people usually portray them.


Anyway, here's how I would adress many of the most common "Ikaruga is a bad shmup" arguments:


"Chaining system is too rigid"

The funny thing about this argument is that the opposite is true. Unlike Dodonpachi where your chain is demolished if you hesitate for a frame, Ikaruga's non-time based chains mean that you can flail like a maniac and still pull off your chaining route (until you reach high level play, of course, but what does let you flail like a maniac at high level play?). Even if you utterly fail to kill the enemy that was vital to your chain, you can improvise and skip enemies to recover your chain which is actually really fun and skillful and results in scores close to what you would have had.

I think this is the place where the "Ikaruga is a puzzle shooter" stuff is most true. Many of the chaining sections are like little minigames (more on that later) that need to be "figured out" before they can be completed optimally. I like this set up though, because really, most scoring systems are "puzzles" in the sense that you need to puzzle out an optimal route in order to succeed. Ikaruga just breaks up the scoring opportunities into distinct little mini-games that feel clever and unique to figure out how they work (as opposed to "herd bullets here...tap dodge here...point blank there...etc.).

"It takes too much memorization"

There's really no memorization needed till stage 4 (the blocks at the start of stage 3 are probably worth one cheap death, but that's about it. The boss 3 is only marginally more dangerous without a route, I beat him whilst flailing with no plan on my second encounter). See below about stage 4. Most of the difficulty from stage 5 is due to things that can't be fully memorized or are nearly as hard even when completely understood. So this complaint is no more true then it is for your average Psyiko game or Cave game (I'd say the only difference is that Cave games are easier to survive whilst flailing on their fourth stage, whereas the fifth stage requires more precise memorization then the entirety of Ikaruga imo)

"Stage 4 is too much of a difficulty spike"

Stage 4 is actually easier to play for survival then stage 3 in my opinion. The "flower" section that kills everyone is actually super easy, and actually requires a very simple strategy that's not hard to figure out but that a lot of people mistakenly assume needs some absurdly complex and pixel perfect route. Watch a ]replay, and try it a few times in practice mode. It's not that hard. The rest of the stage is simple, and the boss can't even shoot more then one beam at you if you just blow open his hatches fast enough.

"It's too methodical"

The move speed is faster then Radiant Silvergun, and probably falls into the "medium speed" tier that most shmups would have in their roster. I'd say you actually spend most of your time moving faster then you do in your average danmaku game, since 90% of those games (or at least of their critical moments) are spent in focus mode. As for pacing, the game doesn't linger on anything, and throws new enemy types and waves at you without dragging any one section out for too long. The closest I can think of to a "methodical" section is the last "crate" section of stage 2, and the sheer intensity and speed of stage 3's second half compliments it twice over with some furiously fast scrolling action.

"It's too static/sterile, not enough twitch/dodging"

I think this one just speaks to the fact that most people who hate the game never bothered to clear stage 5, because the zako rush in the beginning and the entirety of the final boss which constitutes most of the stage is one long test of sight reading and reflexes. I'm pretty sure there's a strong rng element in phase 1 and 3 of the Kageri battle (maybe phase 2 as well, but I'm not sure because it's very hard to route the damn thing anyway) and possibly a little during some of The Stone Likes attacks too, so "it's just a puzzle shooter" goes out the window at that point. Even beyond that, you don't avoid dodging anymore than most shmups that don't spam rng bullets. The same "tricks" that give you safety in Cave or Psyiko shmups give you the same kind of safety here. I "dodge" a lot less in the final stage of Dragon Blaze then I do in stages 3-5 of Ikaruga.



On the other hand, I think the game does some really interesting, original, and well executed things that most shmups these days don't, and whether you like it or not, I believe it deserves praise for that.

Environmental Hazards

Hey remember when stages weren't just tanks and flying shit and actually had walls and environmental hazards that were cool as fuck? Ikaruga remembers, and it does a damn fine job of creating a lot of interesting situations with them that even the fanciest of bullet waves can't replicate.

Aiming your shots is a thing

Most shmups you just hold down the fire button in the general direction of whatever you want to die next, and that's about it. You can do the same in Ikaruga if you're playing for survival, but many of the chains require you to actually aim and time your shots to carefully snipe enemies in accordance with your chain. And when I say aim, I don't mean just lining up your ship with your target, but intensively 360 no scoping tiny moving targets with a not-terribly-fast player bullet whilst avoiding hitting other targets. I feel these little shooting gallery elements give massive variety to the game, making many of the chaining sequences feel very unique and forcing you to use a skill that's seldom seen in modern shmups. Plus, you still get to hold down the fire button a lot and let loose a waterfall of fire power.

Many chains feel like their own games

Like I said before, a lot of the chains feel like little mini games. For example, watching the little zako dudes in the middle here for the right time to blast them (as they increase in speed over time) feels like it could have been a Mario Party mini game. Tons of chains in the game follow suit, with very unique little strategies and skills associated with them. They feel different from eachother and each one more gimmicky (in a good way) than the scoring tricks in most games. "RSG has a new idea every minute" is true of this game too and has more meaning then people think.

Dodging feels unique

Ikaruga is not the only game where you have a unique style of dodging. Many old shmups feel just as distinct from eachother in dodging style (see: every Irem shmup ever), so Ika isn't some revolution. But it's different from any other game out there (again, in a good way), and I think that's worthy of praise. It's also worth noting that the game doesn't "waste" any of its potential, and explores every part of the polarity system. There are places where you don't need to dodge and just need to preempt difficult sections with the right route (like many shmups), but there's also places where you need to "sight read" and switch your perception of bullets along with the polarities. It's not a half baked game.


Believe me, I'm not trying to argue that Ikaruga is some revolutionary step above all other shmups, or that everyone should love it. It's a really, really good game and in my top 5 favorites. It may not be for everyone, but there's a lot of memes floating around about it that are very half baked and IMO misleading. I don't want to get into any huge arguments here or go forum warrior, but I think a lot of people would be well served by reexamining the game with a more open mind.

[Blinge]

Preach, brother.

[iconoclast]

I think Ikaruga gets a really bad rap from shmups farm

Code: Select all

Top 25 Shmups of All Time (through 2014)
##. Game                                               Score  '02 '03 '04 '05 '06 '07 '08 '09 '10 '12 '13
07. Ikaruga (ARC/DC/GC/360)                             4.76    -   -   -   -   -   -   +   -   +   +   +

[Squire Grooktook]

That's surprising to me. Every time I stumble upon old discussions of the game, a lot of forum regulars are usually either outright dismissing it, or damning it with faint praise. I remember RNGMaster (iirc) outright calling it a "a pretty poor shmup" or something like that at one point. A lot of discussions about it tend to get completely overtaken by memetic jokes about casuals and game journalists perception of it too, which doesn't speak well to peoples opinion of it.

If I'm wrong and most people think it's solid, okay I'm dumb. But from my experience the game has a very "love it or hate it" stigma attached to it, which isn't justified IMO. Even if it's not to your taste, it's definitely at least solid, well executed, and very polished.

[Plasmo]

"Ikaruga is the best game ever made."

-Thomas Jefferson

[BIL]

Great writeup - as someone only on survival terms with the game, if even that, it's nice to get a balanced and detailed appraisal. It does tend to run feelings a bit high, haha.

(until you reach high level play, of course, but what does let you flail like a maniac at high level play?)

XII Stag superplayers must look dodgy as hell to anyone just walking in. Psyvariars will give you a champion wanker wrist/forearm workout too.

[Weak Boson]

Yeah I sometimes wonder what my neighbours think of my late night Psyvaiar sessions.

"late night psyvariar sessions, sure"

The one saving grace is that when wanking the stick you use your left hand.



But, er, I'm not a massive fan of Ikaruga, though it's obviously a good game and I've been meaning to go back to it.

[BulletMagnet]

"Ikaruga is the best game ever made."

-Thomas Jefferson

Historians continue to dispute long-standing suspicions that he programmed a doujin tribute game with the black ship.

[Squire Grooktook]

^^^It was worth typing all that for that joke.

[Obscura]

Aiming your shots is a thing

Most shmups you just hold down the fire button in the general direction of whatever you want to die next, and that's about it. You can do the same in Ikaruga if you're playing for survival, but many of the chains require you to actually aim and time your shots to carefully snipe enemies in accordance with your chain. And when I say aim, I don't mean just lining up your ship with your target, but intensively 360 no scoping tiny moving targets with a not-terribly-fast player bullet whilst avoiding hitting other targets. I feel these little shooting gallery elements give massive variety to the game, making many of the chaining sequences feel very unique and forcing you to use a skill that's seldom seen in modern shmups. Plus, you still get to hold down the fire button a lot and let loose a waterfall of fire power.

This is a large part of the reason I hate the game. The total lack of firepower for the player feels like trying to play Contra with the pea-shooter.

Add to that long cutscenes in the middle of what is supposed to be an arcade game and the fact that I've never seen past the stage 2 boss, and the second half of his stage is the most horrid thing in existence, and I don't care what anyone else says; I will never touch the game again.

[mastermx]

Ikaruga is one of my favourite shmups. But some of the points levied against it are actually true.

There is very little dodging in the game, and for that reason not as much "transferable skill" as you move away from it and to other shmups. There is in fact very little dodging involved in Ikaruga, even against the TLB, you just have to time your colour switch. In Ikaruga you never need to tap dodge and you never need to bullet herd. But that does not make it a bad game, it is still difficult and very fun. It just doesn't follow the typical convention and does it's own thing, which it does very well.

I think all shmups at harder difficulties are puzzles with memorization required. The thing with Ikaruga is its puzzle elements are very clearly displayed for the player to see. Its difficulty is heavily predicated on how far the player seeks to push his score. This makes it easier for survival than other shmups because if you don't have the confidence to chain certain waves, you can essentially just sit and let them pass by. Compare that with other shmups that have Zako's running rampant with aimed shots as they fly in your direction.

Aiming shots in Ikaruga is very satisfying and makes you feel like a pro. Pulling off a difficult chain correctly feels like pulling off a combo in street fighter.

[Squire Grooktook]

@Obscura:

This is a large part of the reason I hate the game. The total lack of firepower for the player feels like trying to play Contra with the pea-shooter.

You have really great fire power when holding the button down (plus absorbing shots to unleash very satisfying homing massacres). The presence of shooting gallery mini-games was what I was alluding to, not standard fire power.

Add to that long cutscenes in the middle of what is supposed to be an arcade game

wat

and the second half of his stage is the most horrid thing in existence

That part is not so bad, you just need to shoot the stuff and dodge the bullets.



@Mastermx:

There is very little dodging in the game, and for that reason not as much "transferable skill" as you move away from it and to other shmups.

Strongly disagree. There's as much dodging or more then there is in your average Psyikyo game. Many enemies actually do shoot aimed shots at you, but the fact that many of these sequences are static is what gives people the impression that the game is 100% sterile, even though the same argument applies to many other shmups.

I also disagree about the skill transfer. I had a much easier time with Ikaruga after returning to it from clearing various other shmups.

even against the TLB, you just have to time your colour switch.

Sounds like the first phase only, and before he begins shooting off those direction changing small shots (are those random? they feel that way to me). There's also his final attack which shoots off spirals of various colors that require intense sight reading to pass through, especially on the last few seconds. Not sure if this section is rng too, only played it twice.

Kageri (the stage 5 final boss) is also pure dodging on all 3 of her phases. Stage 3 boss is theoretically controllable, but in practice you have to watch the shots. Stage 2 boss has some rng (I think) slow bullets complicating speed kill attempts. The stage 1 boss has actual dodging of some fairly scary patterns of the opposite color if you want to get the optimal speed kill score bonus.

It's also very easy to accidentally trigger rng suicide bullets on the stage 4 midboss, though thankfully there are strats to avoid it. Fuck it up though...

I think all shmups at harder difficulties are puzzles with memorization required.

Disagree too since that implies "figuring it out" is all there is too it. It's also possible to have a pattern that's purely randomized while still being at the upper limit of difficulty.

This makes it easier for survival than other shmups because if you don't have the confidence to chain certain waves, you can essentially just sit and let them pass by. Compare that with other shmups that have Zako's running rampant with aimed shots as they fly in your direction.

Have you cleared it? Because in my experience of beating it on normal, this is not true. Ikaruga is at least as difficult a clear as most Cave 1-alls (I had a much harder time with the final boss alone then pretty much all of Dangun Feveron), whether you score or not. This is the kind of misinformation that gets spread around a lot that I am seriously questioning here.

"sitting and letting enemies pass by" will kill you by the way past stage 2.

[mastermx]

Yes I also cleared it on normal, beat the TLB and everything. I am talking from experience, but it seems your experience of the game is different from mine, I still play it from time to time, but I remember when I first learned it I had to do a lot of memorization.

mastermx wrote:

I think all shmups at harder difficulties are puzzles with memorization required.


Disagree too since that implies "figuring it out" is all there is too it. It's also possible to have a pattern that's purely randomized while still being at the upper limit of difficulty.

I actually think that they are, what makes them unique is when execution requirements are factored in, and the whole risk/reward systems of scoring. Figuring it out isn't all there is to it, I should have made that clear, because after you have figured it out you gotta be able to pull it off.

[Squire Grooktook]

Yes I also cleared it on normal, beat the TLB and everything. I am talking from experience, but it seems your experience of the game is different from mine, I still play it from time to time, but I remember when I first learned it I had to do a lot of memorization.

That honestly surprises me, because I can't imagine saying the game is "easier then most shmups" if you play for survival. I can compare this to a number of other shmups I've cleared lately (Guwange, Armed Police Batrider - Advanced Course, Rayforce, Dragon Blaze 1-all,Dangun Feveron, etc.) and Ikaruga is definitely on the harder end of the spectrum. About as hard as most Cave 1-alls.

I have no idea how passing by enemies is going to do anything but get you killed on the flower at stage 4, where they'll crowd the screen and remove all your space while shooting aimed shots, or the speed up section of stage 3 where not shooting the zakos will leave you even less room to manuever through the closing gates. Or the spiral of zakos midway through stage 5. In all of these cases, the "easy" option is just to shoot and potentially lose your chain if you messed up, then not shoot and let a gazillion enemies overwhelm you. There are specific sections where you can bypass enemies without extra danger, but these are mostly places where shooting everything isn't going to get you killed anyway.

Speaking of "the flower" even though the general idea of that section is easier then people think, it's still an example of a prolonged section of dodging in the game. The enemies on the shots do shoot aimed shots of both colors at you while your circling it.

[mastermx]

Well yes of course, I didn't mean that all waves can be skipped. Like you said stage 4 is a good examples where you have to kill the zakos. But certain waves are skip able. It is still a very difficult game by all means, I never said it was easy, but rather that it gives you the option to skip certain sections, and some waves only appear if you have beaten the previous wave fast enough.

Let's put it this way, if you compare Ikaruga with say DOJ or Raiden, those shmups prioritize certain skills and play styles, Ikaruga plays differently because it prioritizes it's own play style, and I have not run into many shmups similar to Ikaruga, it is unique.

[Squire Grooktook]

Let's put it this way, if you compare Ikaruga with say DOJ or Raiden, those shmups prioritize certain skills and play styles, Ikaruga plays differently because it prioritizes it's own play style, and I have not run into many shmups similar to Ikaruga, it is unique.

Yes, that's partially true. But that is what I think needs to be addressed. It's different, but not that different. Various sections of the game require different skills, and the skills that help you to dodge in DOJ or Raiden do appear in certain parts of the game (most notably the final boss). The same skills that help you master those games can and will help you in Ikaruga.

A common complaint is that Ikaruga has no dodging, or likely what they mean is that it has no sight reading or reaction. Ikaruga has plenty of both. When you're first learning the game, you will mess up and have to dodge stuff, same as Dodonpachi and Dragon Blaze. When you've mastered the game, it'll be a more tight route with not as much reaction or improvisation...just like Dodonpachi and Dragon Blaze which are just as static. Ika also does have rng sections that require genuine sight reading and reaction, and cannot simply be memorized. So all that in mind, I don't think that particular complaint of "no dodging" is valid. The dodging is different, but it's there.

[Special World]

Ikaruga is a great game. It feels kind of sterile compared to many other shooters, but I think that's just part of Treasure's penchant for making everything super tight (disregarding the other half of their output where everything is super crazy instead) and it's not like the game suffers from being so tightly reigned in. I've gone through my own phase of "Well Ikaruga really isn't *that* good," owing to the perception among most people that it's the only shooter that matters. But in absolute terms, on its own terms, in terms of what it actually *is* rather than what people *say* it is, Ikaruga is a very good game. I can thank Ikaruga for getting me through a whole month after moving to a new house, where I had no cable and very little to do except play games and walk around the local cemetery. I don't think I would have been nearly as content if I didn't have such an excellent game to spend endless hours with.

[Squire Grooktook]

Ikaruga is a great game. It feels kind of sterile compared to many other shooters, but I think that's just part of Treasure's penchant for making everything super tight (disregarding the other half of their output where everything is super crazy instead) and it's not like the game suffers from being so tightly reigned in. I've gone through my own phase of "Well Ikaruga really isn't *that* good," owing to the perception among most people that it's the only shooter that matters. But in absolute terms, on its own terms, in terms of what it actually *is* rather than what people *say* it is, Ikaruga is a very good game. I can thank Ikaruga for getting me through a whole month after moving to a new house, where I had no cable and very little to do except play games and walk around the local cemetery. I don't think I would have been nearly as content if I didn't have such an excellent game to spend endless hours with.

I don't mean to keep grilling people, heh, but could you define sterile? My time with it has been anything but.

My definition of sterile would be "completely static to the point where everything is perfectly manipulatable, no unpredictable moments or necessary dynamic improvisational thinking". Ika is no closer to this metric then many shmups IMHO. Probably less so then many Cave or Psyiko games.

[Special World]

I don't mean to keep grilling people, heh, but could you define sterile? My time with it has been anything but.

I guess if you want to look at it in a positive light, one could almost say that Ikaruga is too well-designed. So with a lot of Treasure's games things are haphazardly thrown together to the point where they feel like craziness, and there's a lot of uncontrolled energy on display; Guardian Heroes and Gunstar Heroes are both good examples of this. They feel as if Treasure designed a system and then threw everything they had at it, on pure faith that the system they designed would survive any punishment. Ikaruga, on the other hand, feels like every single element was hand-placed down to the millimeter, and then deliberated on dispassionately and with an eye for what is strictly "correct." In many games you have these nuances and idiosyncrasies that tell you "Okay, a human was designing this, and here's what they were thinking about when they did this, but perhaps they overlooked this detail." In terms of board games, for example, you might have a dice-rolling element, or in card games you just have the luck of the draw, and these unpredictable elements are all drawn into the gravitational field of the systems that are designed around their disorder. Ikaruga doesn't feel like it has anything unpredictable, anything disordered, anything sloppy or messy as a result of a designer's opinions, strengths, or mistakes. Ikaruga feels like it was made on graph paper; Gradius V is kind of like that too. There's such an impressive, monolithic structure to Ikaruga's design that it feels like nobody made it. In one way that's just perfect game design, but in another way it loses out on the sense of delight in thinking "Oh, this is pure Yagawa through and through," or "Alright, I think I understand what M-Kai wanted when he designed things this way." You look past the game and there's nobody there.

[Squire Grooktook]

but in another way it loses out on the sense of delight in thinking "Oh, this is pure Yagawa through and through," or "Alright, I think I understand what M-Kai wanted when he designed things this way." You look past the game and there's nobody there.

I can't really empathize with this too much. Mostly because no one can really know what was accidental or what was planned, except the designers themselves. Second because Ikaruga feeling the way it does doesn't mean that "nobody is there". It very clearly says who is there. It's just another example of style. There are also tons of little "treasure-isms" throughout the game (see: the part on minigames) that are unmistakably "them", perhaps the defining examples.

Besides that, I'm more into what the game actually does. If a game gives me what I want out of it, I don't really care too much if it was a happy accident (mvc2, Garegga) or completely planned. It is what it is. Intention isn't really relevant IMO.

[chempop]

I mostly hate it because a bunch of people I know got it for either Gamecube or XBLA, played it enough to learn how to full chain the entire first stage, and then never played another shmup again.

That said, the very first thing I did when I got off an airplane in japan was have a friend take me to a 10yen arcade where we credit fed it to the very end

THAT SAID, I prefer radiant silvergun.

[mastermx]

Ikaruga was very heavily praised in mainstream gaming media. I think I remember an interview with one of the devs at caves also praising Ikaruga. But I read it a long time ago, so my memory is wobbly, and I can't seem to find it on Google.


I never got to try radiant silver gun. I will get to it one day eventually.

[Special World]

but in another way it loses out on the sense of delight in thinking "Oh, this is pure Yagawa through and through," or "Alright, I think I understand what M-Kai wanted when he designed things this way." You look past the game and there's nobody there.

I can't really empathize with this too much. Mostly because no one can really know what was accidental or what was planned, except the designers themselves. Second because Ikaruga feeling the way it does doesn't mean that "nobody is there". It very clearly says who is there. It's just another example of style. There are also tons of little "treasure-isms" throughout the game (see: the part on minigames) that are unmistakably "them", perhaps the defining examples.

Besides that, I'm more into what the game actually does. If a game gives me what I want out of it, I don't really care too much if it was a happy accident (mvc2, Garegga) or completely planned. It is what it is. Intention isn't really relevant IMO.

I wasn't talking so much about intention. Mostly personal interest. Garegga and Eschatos feel in-the-moment exciting to me, whereas Ikaruga is so highly structured as to feel more like a cerebral exercise. The difference is like that between a band you love on an emotional level and one you appreciate on a technical level. I really like a lot of King Crimson albums, but for the most part I like them with my head instead of my heart. Same goes for Ikaruga. The moment to moment content of the game for me is "very engaging" rather than "really fun."

[Squire Grooktook]

but in another way it loses out on the sense of delight in thinking "Oh, this is pure Yagawa through and through," or "Alright, I think I understand what M-Kai wanted when he designed things this way." You look past the game and there's nobody there.

I can't really empathize with this too much. Mostly because no one can really know what was accidental or what was planned, except the designers themselves. Second because Ikaruga feeling the way it does doesn't mean that "nobody is there". It very clearly says who is there. It's just another example of style. There are also tons of little "treasure-isms" throughout the game (see: the part on minigames) that are unmistakably "them", perhaps the defining examples.

Besides that, I'm more into what the game actually does. If a game gives me what I want out of it, I don't really care too much if it was a happy accident (mvc2, Garegga) or completely planned. It is what it is. Intention isn't really relevant IMO.

I wasn't talking so much about intention. Mostly personal interest. Garegga and Eschatos feel in-the-moment exciting to me, whereas Ikaruga is so highly structured as to feel more like a cerebral exercise. The difference is like that between a band you love on an emotional level and one you appreciate on a technical level. I really like a lot of King Crimson albums, but for the most part I like them with my head instead of my heart. Same goes for Ikaruga. The moment to moment content of the game for me is "very engaging" rather than "really fun."

Well, to me, what you're saying (like cerebral exercise) goes back to the "it's too static", complaints, or at least it sounds that way. Otherwise...

To be honest I don't really see that "construction" with Ikaruga. I think that it's a game that throws a lot of fun, diverse ideas at the wall one after another in the same playful manner that the rest of Treasure's library does. The stages aren't that interlinked, mostly consisting of series of waves that logically follow eachother in the same way a Cave games enemy progressions would. But it's not some grand mathematical formula where everything is finely calculated to only work in that spot: you could switch sections around in Ikaruga and it would still work and feel about the same. I don't see anything mathematically calculated or lacking in passion in the game, at least no more then any other shooting game.

[Erppo]

My definition of sterile would be "completely static to the point where everything is perfectly manipulatable, no unpredictable moments or necessary dynamic improvisational thinking". Ika is no closer to this metric then many shmups IMHO. Probably less so then many Cave or Psyiko games.

These kind of betray that you don't really have much experience of Cave. Most Cave have tons of big or small dodging spots even after you have learned the game. Ikaruga has only one, the last boss (unless you're playing Hard).

[PROMETHEUS]

I think Ikaruga is one of the best shmups ever made, definitely in top10. Very original, sure it is less focused on reading/dodging than most danmakus, still has some of that, has plenty more in the methodical aiming and chaining. Smart difficulty. It's beautiful too, great scenery rythm and sound..

Maybe it's main flaw would be that it's a bit easier than some other games to reach the top scoring ceiling and then harder to make the extra difference on top of that? That may have to do with its more static nature? When you've got it, do always exactly the same thing and it's not so hard anymore?

Most Cave have tons of big or small dodging spots even after you have learned the game.

That's what makes Cave games still very hard and fun to play for score after you have learned them, one of main reasons why I love them and they are so good imo.

[x91]

tbh you really need to play the game more, get a total score above 30 million, then look back at all these you have written here.

imo Ikaruga is a game meant to be WATCHED & APPRECIATED, it is not that friendly to a mean shmup player.

Debating on this are merely nonsense. Go play some actual scoring with it. Honestly. People won't hate it without a reason.

[Strikers1945guy]

I can't stand Ikaruga when playing for score, its more restrictive than DDP and that bores me to tears. Playing for survival would be fun but it's not hard it just turns the game into playing dot eater.

[Squire Grooktook]

My definition of sterile would be "completely static to the point where everything is perfectly manipulatable, no unpredictable moments or necessary dynamic improvisational thinking". Ika is no closer to this metric then many shmups IMHO. Probably less so then many Cave or Psyiko games.

These kind of betray that you don't really have much experience of Cave. Most Cave have tons of big or small dodging spots even after you have learned the game. Ikaruga has only one, the last boss (unless you're playing Hard).

My point was that most of Cave's games are mostly static/not random, and that high level gameplay is mostly based on predictable routes and execution rather then sight reading every single bullet. Wasn't there a quote from a high level player saying that Ketsui was 99% route/execution, 1% reaction?

Perhaps Cave wasn't the best comparison though. Maybe Psyikyo is more accurate. Is moving towards a safe spot before a boss even begins to fire all that much different from weaving through a spiral of zakos and point blanking them to absorb their suicide bullets? A little, yes, but there's barely more sight reading in one then the other.

I can't stand Ikaruga when playing for score, its more restrictive than DDP and that bores me to tears. Playing for survival would be fun but it's not hard it just turns the game into playing dot eater.

How is it more restrictive than DDP?

tbh you really need to play the game more, get a total score above 30 million, then look back at all these you have written here.

imo Ikaruga is a game meant to be WATCHED & APPRECIATED, it is not that friendly to a mean shmup player.

Debating on this are merely nonsense. Go play some actual scoring with it. Honestly. People won't hate it without a reason.

I know I've had a shit ton of fun at where I'm at, so if the game is so bad at 30 mil (big if), then I'll just aim for a score below that. I certainly wouldn't want to play many, many, many shmups at a "high level" that I otherwise enjoy (example: X-Multiply is a personal favorite, but do I want to suicide on the last stage over and over to farm points on the checkpoint? No I do not). This might be absurd blasphemy to many players who would endeavor in such a score, but to me it's a common sense solution that allows a lot of games to remain fun when they otherwise wouldn't be.

I'd really be surprised if most of the people who have criticize it have reached 30 mil though.

[Erppo]

My point was that most of Cave's games are mostly static/not random, and that high level gameplay is mostly based on predictable routes and execution rather then sight reading every single bullet. Wasn't there a quote from a high level player saying that Ketsui was 99% route/execution, 1% reaction?

I'm pretty sure you're making up those numbers. In any case it shouldn't be a secret that playing shmups well is mostly routing, but Cave is a pretty poor comparison here since it still has an unusually high amount of dodging left after that, while Ikaruga has very little.

Another aspect you'd want to look is how interesting and complicated the things you route are, and how fun are they to execute. In this aspect Ikaruga really shines.