Cave x Steam teaser!

[Mantrox]

Getting back to the details of the release, didn't the xbox360 have incorrectly implemented slowdown?
Im really not informed on those versions at all.

If this one is based on that, what are the chances of it being fixed?

[Icarus]

Getting back to the details of the release, didn't the xbox360 have incorrectly implemented slowdown?
Im really not informed on those versions at all.

You're thinking of the PS2 version, which was way slower. The 360 version is pretty accurate.

Cave is an stg developer. That's probably the most unprofitable market to be in in the entirety of the medium. They could make the greatest games in history and still go bankrupt. It is not on them. There is nothing they can do, or at least not immediately, to make the genre more profitable.

And I see no point in paying again for something I already own. Twice, I might add, since I have the PS2 version as well.
Nor would I recommend Mushi at that price point to a genre newcomer when there are better games out there for less or for free. Attempting to keep Cave alive is an entirely subjective action, and in my case, I couldn't care less if they went bankrupt tomorrow, there are far better things to spend my time and money on.

[Mantrox]

You're thinking of the PS2 version, which was way slower. The 360 version is pretty accurate.

Oh, ok. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Eaglet]

A bit disappointed to see some peoples short sightedness in this.

This whole thing has the opportunity to be a game changer for the genre on its whole. What you have to keep in mind is that all development of what we enjoyed from CAVE is basically dead. Stopped. Nil.
If we want more games in the genre and if we want more people to get into it there needs to be some sort of economic feasability in developing and distributing a new product. If there isn't even a market on a world-wide, easily available platform for a cheap price for a pretty popular game by the most brand recognised developer since the 90's - is there a market for anything at all?
There will be nothing but doujins developed in the future if there's no proof to shareholders that development and publishment of shooting games doesn't even lead to break-even economically.
We all know that the state of the genre is shit and we all know that we'd like it to be at a better place with a steadier influx of new players. That will not happen if nothing new is released and if the genre on its whole falls into even more obscurity.

I own the PCB and will probably not even play the port, but i'm still going to support because i love these games and want more people to be able to experience them.
If you care about the community at all, you should do the same. 20$ is NOTHING and not supporting out of some kind of principle is only detrimental.

edit: Of course it feels stupid to pay for something that you've already bought, but that was then (with the market at the state that it was. i.e.: much better) and this is now. When things are shit and the genre is on life support. If Degica can't even show that the core fucking audience (this forum) are safe money for a prospective release, how do you think a company not interested in losing even more money is gonna react to that?

[DoomsDave]

I love Cave but agree with the argument that we shouldn't need to give them pity support. If Cave wants to stay alive, it's on them.

I agree with everything else, but I think it's important to remind people that this is simply not true.

Cave is an stg developer. That's probably the most unprofitable market to be in in the entirety of the medium. They could make the greatest games in history and still go bankrupt. It is not on them. There is nothing they can do, or at least not immediately, to make the genre more profitable.

Jamestown sold a million and it was shit. Cave has barely attempted to please anyone outside it's small, mostly Japanese fanbase.

[Squire Grooktook]

And I see no point in paying again for something I already own. Twice, I might add, since I have the PS2 version as well.

Can totally understand that.

Jamestown sold a million and it was shit. Cave has barely attempted to please anyone outside it's small, mostly Japanese fanbase.

Maybe...but besides doing a lot of things right, Jamestown was also an indie labor of love (like Crimzon Clover) with a different kind of budget. Cave is a professional developer who has to worry about recruiting publishers to get their games on consoles. It's actually been argued that the reason region-locks exist was because they were trying to get publishers to localize their games for western audiences.

I'm going to hope that your right and that things can turn around, but I don't think things are merely as simple as "if Cave makes good games, they'll stay alive."

[Cee]

It is a charity when the genre is so niche that only hardcore fans have the slightest interest in playing it.

A shmup dev could create the best games in the universe and they'd still be struggling against bankruptcy at every possible moment.

What kind of mental gymnastics are you doing to convince yourself that Cave is in anyway a charity? They are not and if the genre is not a financially viable area to capitalize from then the company either adapts to more prosperous ideas or dies, that's how it works. The second point well then those devs should reconsider making shmups at all and move towards more demanded areas to develop for, that's business plain and simple.

[Special World]

This is only a "game changer" if there's an influx of new players and new awareness. You're doing a lot more for the genre by telling your friend about the great game that hit Steam than by double-dipping. I don't think any moral outrage on either side is warranted.

[Squire Grooktook]

It is a charity when the genre is so niche that only hardcore fans have the slightest interest in playing it.

A shmup dev could create the best games in the universe and they'd still be struggling against bankruptcy at every possible moment.

What kind of mental gymnastics are you doing to convince yourself that Cave is in anyway a charity? They are not and if the genre is not a financially viable area to capitalize from then the company either adapts to more prosperous ideas or dies, that's how it works. The second point well then those devs should reconsider making shmups at all and move towards more demanded areas to develop for, that's business plain and simple.

I wasn't being serious with the "charity" statement .

Point is, the claim that Cave can become more successful by making better games is kind of ridiculous in the current climate. There are things that can be done to help the genre imo, but they don't have to do with quality. This is not a perfect world, and Cave is not necessarily going to be rewarded for harder efforts.

The second point well then those devs should reconsider making shmups at all and move towards more demanded areas to develop for, that's business plain and simple.

That's exactly why Cave has never been profitable, even though many people on this forum (barring me :3) think they're the best stg developer ever.

This is only a "game changer" if there's an influx of new players and new awareness. You're doing a lot more for the genre by telling your friend about the great game that hit Steam than by double-dipping. I don't think any moral outrage on either side is warranted.

Agreed. Believe me, I'm not saying people should buy the game at all if they're not interested. And spreading awareness probably is better then a paltry drop in the piggy bank.

[DoomsDave]

And I see no point in paying again for something I already own. Twice, I might add, since I have the PS2 version as well.

Can totally understand that.

Jamestown sold a million and it was shit. Cave has barely attempted to please anyone outside it's small, mostly Japanese fanbase.

Maybe...but besides doing a lot of things right, Jamestown was also an indie labor of love (like Crimzon Clover) with a different kind of budget. Cave is a professional developer who has to worry about recruiting publishers to get their games on consoles. It's actually been argued that the reason region-locks exist was because they were trying to get publishers to localize their games for western audiences.

I'm going to hope that your right and that things can turn around, but I don't think things are merely as simple as "if Cave makes good games, they'll stay alive."

That's true. Crimzon Clover and especially Jamestown received a lot of support from press for those reasons. The region lock thing does make sense as well. I just can't ague with people when they say Cave milk their fanbase. I also feel they're out of touch with the wider market. Their mentality has been to keep making the same games with the same price structure/distribution method to please their shrinking playerbase rather than trying to find a way to make their signature gameplay more appealing and easily available to a wider audience. My brother picked up a stack of my 360 games and asked if it was Japanese porn.

[Squire Grooktook]

Their mentality has been to keep making the same games with the same price structure/distribution method to please their shrinking playerbase rather than trying to find a way to make their signature gameplay more appealing and easily available to a wider audience. My brother picked up a stack of my 360 games and asked if it was Japanese porn.

Well, Ketsui doesn't look like Japanese porn...well I guess some brands...

And of course they've been stuffing their games with novice and arrange modes for a while.

I agree with you that mistakes have been made and that they could have been better. Honestly though, I don't think a console stg developer is something that will ever be viable again (or at least not for a long, long time). How Qute is staying afloat, I have no idea. The future of shmups is digital IMO.

Would be nice if we could get some hard numbers of profit/development costs, etc. for some of these developers.

[awry]

I think there are plenty of reasons to double-dip, but pity for Cave should not be one of them because there are so many legit reasons to buy the game.

1. It's a good game.

2. 1.5 available as DLC for the PC version. Apparently 1.5 is a much better version of the game that was previously extremely hard to get.

3. The game can be played on even low-spec laptops. So you can take all your Cave games with you wherever you take your laptop. And not the shitty MAME rom versions of those Cave games, but the definitive release of the game with high definition graphics and much better audio quality compared to the arcade version.

4. No paying for Xbox Live to use leaderboards, thanks to Steam's free online services.

5. Easily gift the game to friends!

6. Never having to buy the game again, because it will always work with new PCs you buy, assuming those PCs have Windows installed.

7. It's likely to have 1080p support, possibly other enhancements.

[DestroyTheCore]

4. No paying for Xbox Live to use leaderboards, thanks to Steam's free online services.

You have clearly never played a Cave game on Xbox 360.

[TransatlanticFoe]

4. No paying for Xbox Live to use leaderboards, thanks to Steam's free online services.

You don't need to pay for Gold membership to use leaderboards on retail games or regular marketplace downloads. Even the region free imports let you have leaderboard access without paying extra Live fees.

[Blattdorf]

It's kind of a bummer that 1.5 is DLC. It's not about the price, but about splitting it up like that. Those in the know will buy it, but overall it might go by unnoticed for a long time.

It'd be great if 1.5 was a preorder incentive. You could set it up that if enough people preorder, all preorders get 1.5 for free. You could still sell 1.5 for 10 bucks after that.

Regardless, day one purchase for me.

[Eaglet]

This is only a "game changer" if there's an influx of new players and new awareness. You're doing a lot more for the genre by telling your friend about the great game that hit Steam than by double-dipping. I don't think any moral outrage on either side is warranted.

That's a given. But what will do the most to grant new awareness and bring in new players is for there to be more games available. Which is something that is only happening if this release does well economically so every little bit helps.

[DoomsDave]

The future of shmups is digital IMO..

Cave should have realised this really early into the 360's life.

6. Never having to buy the game again, because it will always work with new PCs you buy, assuming those PCs have Windows installed.

lol you're asking for trouble with this one.

[Bananamatic]

I will buy it and likely try my hands @ultra mode. I don't know 1.5 well for having tried it only a couple times but sure sounds like something that should be available shortly after the 1.0 is released because the one grief a lot of people have against Mushi is the exaggeratingly difficult (physically) rythm button taping system for scoring which I believed was removed or simplified in 1.5 and that was just a good choice I guess!

1.5 ultra max i hope
also i dont think the tapping is that difficult, if softdrink managed to learn it then anyone can

[Tim James]

I don't have a dog in this silly fight, but if you're going to buy this to "support" the release of more shooters, don't do it for Cave. Do it for Degica. They're the ones with the energy, enthusiasm, and future. Give them additional evidence to convince more developers to bring their games out of the distribution dark ages.

[Skykid]

god damn it you people will throw hundreds of dollars at PCBs like it's nothing, but suddenly $20 or so is too much?

I suspect everyone saying they don't want to pay $20-30 are people who already own the game. And there's nothing wrong with not wanting to throw money on top of a game you already own that you payed $90 (or even a couple thousand or whatever a pcb costs). There's no shame in that, and there's no obligation to "support" a company. We already did that when we bought the game the first time.

That being said, I don't see any reason to complain about it. $30 is a perfectly fine price, though I think a flat $20 including 1.5 would do more for expanding the game's audience and establishing Mushi as a feature-rich, full, premium game.

I don't understand why this is so hard for people to get.

Basically I own the game on several formats already. Steam is convenient, but I'm not in a rush to drop another $30 on the same package.

Don't own it or never played it? By all means get in there.

It's just a weird mentality that we have an oath to support a business. We don't. Frankly we all laid out so much dough for CAVE during the 360 years and prior, I would have liked to have seen them use that money more wisely and produce a lot more new titles than we actually got. Asking us to restart the whole thing over so they can get it right second time around is a bit of a kick in the balls.

That said I really don't think they are expecting Steam to revive their fortunes. It's probably just going to be the full series of 360 ports, and then dead air.

A new CAVE shmup would be like the heavens opening.

[DoomsDave]

^
this

[Cagar]

A new CAVE shmup would be like the heavens opening.

It's not that far-fetched to be honest. They have already said that it's possible.

[Udderdude]

This port (and others) will be worth it just so I don't have to deal with the 360's awful interface anymore ..

[CloudyMusic]

if softdrink managed to learn it then anyone can

damn son

[Icarus]

A new CAVE shmup would be like the heavens opening.

It's not that far-fetched to be honest. They have already said that it's possible.

A sequel to Mahou Otome is more likely.

[EmperorIng]

Don't own it or never played it? By all means get in there.

Ready and waiting. The prospect of finally playing ESPGaluda 2, Mushi HD, or AK Shin is too good to pass up.

[Some-Mist]

yea... I'm kind of on the fritz regarding whether I'm going to buy it or not. on one hand I'd love to compete on the new leaderboards, but on the other I already own the game and would rather spend the $20-$30 on other stuff. popped it in yesterday after I couldn't get past stage 3 in dojbl and played some arrange which is still a blast.

it's an incredible opportunity to snag it if you don't have a j360 or ver. 1.5 from the preorder bonus.

[CWM]

The truly important thing here is the pedigree of Cave giving this release visibility far beyond of what your typical shmup releasing on Steam will get. As such, it's an opportunity to start digging the genre out of the super-niche it has fallen into. I think it's more productive to think about that instead of getting into petty catfights over the morality of triple-dipping. Yes, visibility on Steam itself is largely contingent on sales - if the game sells well enough to get into the top sellers list for a bit, that will probably help. But, if you, say, have some friends who would've liked to try Cave games, but never cared enough to bother with imports, then gifting it to them is much more useful than just buying it out of charity and having it languish uselessly in your Steam account.

[Elixir]

Ultra - Same bullet speed as above but with very fundamentally different patterns. Multiplier still exists but isn't emphasized on as much due to the sheer difficulty (kind of like Futari Ultra), but S-power destroys bosses quicker with a trade-off of stages being harder due to the linear shot it has. Also, the only mode with the TLB.

iirc W is superior even for bosses with the point blank damage, especially when done with a bomb you remove a ton of their health

I'm not sure about doing the most damage when point-blanking bosses and bombing, but S-power with the right autofire has the most damage output and kills everything ever so slightly quicker. Most people won't be point-blanking anything in Ultra because of the bullet density.

As a general rule of thumb, autofire on one button to boost multiplier at the bottom of the screen, and another button to boost multiplier close to enemies like Nanabush is a good idea.

[mdsfx]

I don't see the debate here:

Lol