Best SONY PVM for Tate position

[HandOfIke]

Hi all,

I have the opportunity to get hold of a Sony PVM-2130 (QM I think, waiting for confirmation) I already have a BVM-2011P and want to keep that positioned normally and was hoping to use the PVM in Tate for vertical shooters....

Have heard that this PVM might not be so good for that due to colours going off after a while, is this true? Can it be remedied? Does this PVM have a degauss function?

Are there other models that would work better? Ideally want a BVM-20F1 and put the 2011P into Tate but they don't come around often and can go way high in price!

Cheers

[daskrabs]

Typically you don't want to tate a PVM because the glass is curved in one direction only, so it looks a bit weird, especially the larger ones. Find a JVC, NEC or similar that has a 2-way curved screen for tate-ing.

[HandOfIke]

Typically you don't want to tate a PVM because the glass is curved in one direction only, so it looks a bit weird, especially the larger ones. Find a JVC, NEC or similar that has a 2-way curved screen for tate-ing.

Thanks,

Can you recommend any JVC or NEC monitors that I can start looking into?

The guy only wants £30 for the PVM so I might get it anyway..... Currently I'm using a 14" BVM for Tate, which is alright but I want a larger screen.... With the 14" I don't really mind the curve, I might see how the BVM looks tate'd and make my mind up weather to get the PVM.

[HandOfIke]

Found a JVC TM 1750PN..... Would this be a better option?

[Ed Oscuro]

I don't know what daskrabs means, PVMs seem fine to me in tate, and lots of people use them that way. The screen surface is a portion of a sphere like any other pre-flat era tube.

The 2130 series is quite old and not really sharp. Try to hold out for something newer.

[HandOfIke]

I don't know what daskrabs means, PVMs seem fine to me in tate, and lots of people use them that way. The screen surface is a portion of a sphere like any other pre-flat era tube.

The 2130 series is quite old and not really sharp. Try to hold out for something newer.

Thanks for that, I might give the 17" JVC a go though, it's selling very near to me and cheap....

I have the opportunity to get a PVM-2044QM for quite cheap too though the guy I could buy it off has said the geometry isn't that well setup. He thinks that pincusion and trapezoid are off. I asked about the convergence and he said that it's good. If it was a BVM it would be no problem as the controls are in the tray or on a menu but the PVM's are in the case..... Is it difficult to do?

Cheers

[Ed Oscuro]

The 2044 is also not the youngest monitor out there - early '90s I think, as opposed to late '80s for the -30 series.

A lot depends on availability - I'd settle with less if I couldn't find 20L2 series monitors, L5s or M4u series, but depending on where you are they are out there. If the picture is good enough, you can certainly tweak geometry. You might ultimately find yourself needing to replace capacitors, though.

If the 1750PN is cheap, like $50 cheap, then you might as well. Here's the ad sheet - it's not quite comparable with 20" PVMs, but it's not terrible considering the size:
https://cvp.com/pdf/jvc_tm1750pn.pdf

You do lose a lot of screen real estate over the 20", but you also lose a lot of weight, which is nice.

[22point8]

I've got a 2044QM, its not too hard, but it does make you go a bit cross eyed doing the geometry on any CRT. Mine is over 25 years old, made in January 1990, the model was released in 1989.

Here's the service manual https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_p3a0 ... view?pli=1

Some pictures of mine:

Spoiler

[HandOfIke]

The 2044 is also not the youngest monitor out there - early '90s I think, as opposed to late '80s for the -30 series.

A lot depends on availability - I'd settle with less if I couldn't find 20L2 series monitors, L5s or M4u series, but depending on where you are they are out there. If the picture is good enough, you can certainly tweak geometry. You might ultimately find yourself needing to replace capacitors, though.

If the 1750PN is cheap, like $50 cheap, then you might as well. Here's the ad sheet - it's not quite comparable with 20" PVMs, but it's not terrible considering the size:
https://cvp.com/pdf/jvc_tm1750pn.pdf

You do lose a lot of screen real estate over the 20", but you also lose a lot of weight, which is nice.

Thanks

I'd love a L5, I think they are trisync? But they seem to be extortionately priced. 20L come up from time to time.... Might wait it out.

Cheers

[HandOfIke]

I've got a 2044QM, its not too hard, but it does make you go a bit cross eyed doing the geometry on any CRT. Mine is over 25 years old, made in January 1990, the model was released in 1989.

Here's the service manual https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_p3a0 ... view?pli=1

Some pictures of mine:

Spoiler

Ohhh that looks pretty good... I didn't think the 2044 had any on screen geometry patterns to help set it, are you using something else there?

[Ed Oscuro]

The PVM 20L5, like the BVMs, is only kind-of multisync, and not trisync. It supports 15KHz well, 31KHz signals up to a point, but there's no 24KHz support.

After the L5 series, M4U series is one of the best PVMs to get if you can find it, sticking within the 20" size. They have 800 tv lines of resolution, which is essentially BVM class (some BVMs do 800 up to 1000 lines), and identical to the 20L5.

For comparison, the 17" JVC above has 550 TVL.

Personally, a 20L2 with 650TVL looks sharp enough for even most Xbox games. Below that, though, would be cutting it close IMO.

The 2044QM in 22point8's links just looks fuzzy to me. It's pretty close to a standard old arcade tube or home TV in looks, though. Thanks for the service manual, 22point8!

Of course, it goes without saying - any monitor, especially the pro ones, can have been run into the ground. Medical monitors seem to fare better than broadcast production monitors due to the clean environment and typically gentle use.

For geometry patterns, get a DVD player and burn a video test disc, and you can get whatever patterns you'd like. The onscreen controls in newer PVMs aren't too bad to deal with, and it's certainly nice not to have the added bulk and expense of a BVM.

[HandOfIke]

The PVM 20L5, like the BVMs, is only kind-of multisync, and not trisync. It supports 15KHz well, 31KHz signals up to a point, but there's no 24KHz support.

After the L5 series, M4U series is one of the best PVMs to get if you can find it, sticking within the 20" size. They have 800 tv lines of resolution, which is essentially BVM class (some BVMs do 800 up to 1000 lines), and identical to the 20L5.

For comparison, the 17" JVC above has 550 TVL.

Personally, a 20L2 with 650TVL looks sharp enough for even most Xbox games. Below that, though, would be cutting it close IMO.

The 2044QM in 22point8's links just looks fuzzy to me. It's pretty close to a standard old arcade tube or home TV in looks, though. Thanks for the service manual, 22point8!

Of course, it goes without saying - any monitor, especially the pro ones, can have been run into the ground. Medical monitors seem to fare better than broadcast production monitors due to the clean environment and typically gentle use.

For geometry patterns, get a DVD player and burn a video test disc, and you can get whatever patterns you'd like. The onscreen controls in newer PVMs aren't too bad to deal with, and it's certainly nice not to have the added bulk and expense of a BVM.

Thanks for that in-depth answer...

My BVM-2011P died again yesterday, I've had it fixed for a shot transistor on the sync board once and I think it's gone again which suggests that there is a problem somewhere else? So I'm now on the look out for a BVM and a Tate monitor (Hence my other threat about the BVM-20F1U). I think I'm going to see if I can get a 20F1 and I'll give the JVC a shot for tating - then if I really want a 20" I can look again....

Currently I have a BVM-14G5E which has a great sharp picture and I love the digital geometry etc settings.... But 14" is too small for a main set.

[Ed Oscuro]

Whoops, I should mention: The M4U is strictly 15KHz only, so 480i and 240p. They don't have the high def capability of the 20L5.

[HandOfIke]

Whoops, I should mention: The M4U is strictly 15KHz only, so 480i and 240p. They don't have the high def capability of the 20L5.

That's cool....

So a 15kHz monitor can take a 480i signal? I didn't think it could or that it would damage the set.... I'm not fussed about high-def I have LCD's for that stuff... Just want a couple of good sets for low-def stuff....

[22point8]

I've got a 2044QM, its not too hard, but it does make you go a bit cross eyed doing the geometry on any CRT. Mine is over 25 years old, made in January 1990, the model was released in 1989.

Here's the service manual https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_p3a0 ... view?pli=1

Some pictures of mine:

Spoiler

Ohhh that looks pretty good... I didn't think the 2044 had any on screen geometry patterns to help set it, are you using something else there?

I use a softmodded Wii, then use the 240p test suite. You just open up the back and adjust the pots, you can use insulated screw drivers but its better to use a trimmer pot adjuster.

Turn PVM off, unplug, press power button a few times.
Remove cables.
Undo 3 screws from each side and 5 from the back lift cover off.
Plug cables back in, tuen on game console, let screen warm up for 15 minutes.
Adjust pots, keep a print out of service manual page handy to refer to.
Adjust Focus.

The scrolling grid test is the best test of geometry.

[HandOfIke]

I've got a 2044QM, its not too hard, but it does make you go a bit cross eyed doing the geometry on any CRT. Mine is over 25 years old, made in January 1990, the model was released in 1989.

Here's the service manual https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_p3a0 ... view?pli=1

Some pictures of mine:

Spoiler

Ohhh that looks pretty good... I didn't think the 2044 had any on screen geometry patterns to help set it, are you using something else there?

I use a softmodded Wii, then use the 240p test suite. You just open up the back and adjust the pots, you can use insulated screw drivers but its better to use a trimmer pot adjuster.

Turn PVM off, unplug, press power button a few times.
Remove cables.
Undo 3 screws from each side and 5 from the back lift cover off.
Plug cables back in, tuen on game console, let screen warm up for 15 minutes.
Adjust pots, keep a print out of service manual page handy to refer to.
Adjust Focus.

The scrolling grid test is the best test of geometry.

Thanks

I've heard of the softmod for the Wii, the Wii I have is my girlfriends, and I've heard that there is a chance the softmod can bugger it up? Also is it reversible (the softmod) as again it's not mine?

[Ed Oscuro]

So a 15kHz monitor can take a 480i signal?

Short answer: These are different terms for the same thing.

Longer answer:

15KHz is the horizontal scan rate frequency, or the number of horizontal lines every second.

The "i" and "p" mean interlaced or progressive, denoting whether the lines are drawn in alternating places (interlaced) or in every spot (progressive) every time the electron gun sweeps the screen from top to bottom. 480p is drawing all 480 lines each time; 480i is only drawing half the lines (240) at once, with spaces between, it draws the missing ones the next sweep. 240p is a kind of timing hack of 480i where all lines are drawn in the same place, without the alternating.

480p is drawing twice as many lines as 480i (or 240p), so its horizontal scan rate frequency is 31KHz. A Full HD monitor's specs might say "horizontal scan rate frequency = 30KHz to 67.5KHz," but it probably only supports a handful of resolutions starting 31KHz (480 lines) and 67.5KHz (1080 lines). A real multisync monitor will support every resolution between its low and high values. A PVM 20L5 is "kind of" multisync; they support resolutions "around" 15KHz and "around" 31KHz, and at some specific other frequencies - in the case of the 20L5, it supports 480i, 480p, 1080i, and 720p. It will take frequencies that are really close to the standards, but sometimes not ones slightly beyond.

This does matter a bit, because some wacky arcade boards are far enough from 15KHz that PVMs, BVMs, and most any other non-arcade monitor will have trouble displaying them.

[HandOfIke]

So a 15kHz monitor can take a 480i signal?

Short answer: These are different terms for the same thing.

Longer answer:

15KHz is the horizontal scan rate frequency, or the number of horizontal lines every second.

The "i" and "p" mean interlaced or progressive, denoting whether the lines are drawn in alternating places (interlaced) or in every spot (progressive) every time the electron gun sweeps the screen from top to bottom. 480p is drawing all 480 lines each time; 480i is only drawing half the lines (240) at once, with spaces between, it draws the missing ones the next sweep. 240p is a kind of timing hack of 480i where all lines are drawn in the same place, without the alternating.

480p is drawing twice as many lines as 480i (or 240p), so its horizontal scan rate frequency is 31KHz. A Full HD monitor's specs might say "horizontal scan rate frequency = 30KHz to 67.5KHz," but it probably only supports a handful of resolutions starting 31KHz (480 lines) and 67.5KHz (1080 lines). A real multisync monitor will support every resolution between its low and high values. A PVM 20L5 is "kind of" multisync; they support resolutions "around" 15KHz and "around" 31KHz, and at some specific other frequencies - in the case of the 20L5, it supports 480i, 480p, 1080i, and 720p. It will take frequencies that are really close to the standards, but sometimes not ones slightly beyond.

This does matter a bit, because some wacky arcade boards are far enough from 15KHz that PVMs, BVMs, and most any other non-arcade monitor will have trouble displaying them.

Thanks again for your answer. I am currently only putting consoles through a 15kHz CRT so I guess this is fine and I don't need a multi-sync. I would eventually like to get into and own some Arcade PCB's (I'd love Defender for example) so I would need a proper arcade monitor for that... I shall look into it....

Thanks again!

[HandOfIke]

For geometry patterns, get a DVD player and burn a video test disc, and you can get whatever patterns you'd like. The onscreen controls in newer PVMs aren't too bad to deal with, and it's certainly nice not to have the added bulk and expense of a BVM.

Hi Ed Oscuro,

Can I ask you what I think is a stupid question. The only way I can connect a DVD player is through composite. Will a test disc through composite be good enough to set the geometry? Or will I need RGB? I'm guessing for convergence RGB is the only way to go?

Thanks

[Ed Oscuro]

I would eventually like to get into and own some Arcade PCB's (I'd love Defender for example) so I would need a proper arcade monitor for that... I shall look into it....

Hmm, we don't get a lot of postings about using boards of that era, so I don't know what people are doing to make that work. The major wrinkle is that Defender seems to have a different kind of sync than usual.

For most PCBs from the mid-80s on to the 2000s, a simple supergun + PVM is all you need.

In case I hit you with too much information earlier, 15KHz /240p is the "classic" rate seen in most classic arcade games and consoles, and a 15KHz PVM is good for most of them.

For geometry patterns, get a DVD player and burn a video test disc, and you can get whatever patterns you'd like. The onscreen controls in newer PVMs aren't too bad to deal with, and it's certainly nice not to have the added bulk and expense of a BVM.

Hi Ed Oscuro,

Can I ask you what I think is a stupid question. The only way I can connect a DVD player is through composite. Will a test disc through composite be good enough to set the geometry? Or will I need RGB? I'm guessing for convergence RGB is the only way to go?

Thanks

That's not a bad question at all!

I think you actually have two options: First, you can get some RCA to BNC adapters off eBay or any other place (cheap + easy to find), and switch the PVM into component (YPbPr) mode. You'd plug into the same spots as for RGBs, just leaving out the sync because YPbPr is just three plugs. This lets you get the best quality out of your DVD player (well, the best for you and me). I'd recommend doing this anyway so you can use component (YPbPr) video sources.

The other option is just go ahead and use composite. On my 20L2, composite is good enough that I don't mind using it at all. I'm sure it's at least good enough for a simple grid pattern, where you're checking how straight lines are.

There is one thing to pay attention to when using patterns, whatever the source: Any two video sources can look a bit different from each other on your PVM. The major reason is that many consoles or arcade boards fill up different amounts of the screen (usually, having some of the video beyond the edge of the screen). Don't hesitate to test with your consoles and don't worry if one system shows more of the screen than another.

[HandOfIke]

For most PCBs from the mid-80s on to the 2000s, a simple supergun + PVM is all you need.

Sounds good, I will look into this...

I think you actually have two options: First, you can get some RCA to BNC adapters off eBay or any other place (cheap + easy to find), and switch the PVM into component (YPbPr) mode. You'd plug into the same spots as for RGBs, just leaving out the sync because YPbPr is just three plugs. This lets you get the best quality out of your DVD player (well, the best for you and me). I'd recommend doing this anyway so you can use component (YPbPr) video sources.

The other option is just go ahead and use composite. On my 20L2, composite is good enough that I don't mind using it at all. I'm sure it's at least good enough for a simple grid pattern, where you're checking how straight lines are.

There is one thing to pay attention to when using patterns, whatever the source: Any two video sources can look a bit different from each other on your PVM. The major reason is that many consoles or arcade boards fill up different amounts of the screen (usually, having some of the video beyond the edge of the screen). Don't hesitate to test with your consoles and don't worry if one system shows more of the screen than another.

Brilliant you've been really helpful, thanks again!

[Einzelherz]

For geometry patterns, get a DVD player and burn a video test disc, and you can get whatever patterns you'd like. The onscreen controls in newer PVMs aren't too bad to deal with, and it's certainly nice not to have the added bulk and expense of a BVM.

Hi Ed Oscuro,

Can I ask you what I think is a stupid question. The only way I can connect a DVD player is through composite. Will a test disc through composite be good enough to set the geometry? Or will I need RGB? I'm guessing for convergence RGB is the only way to go?

Thanks

You can send the composite through the Y channel on the component line. You'll only get a black and white image, but the clarity should be quote good. Alternatively you can send it through the Sync line and set the monitor to RGB, external sync.

[Pasky]

Does anyone know where the H hold adjustment is on a BVM20D1Fu and PVML5? Have a lot of arcade games that get the annoying curl at the top of the screen such as DDPDOJ:



It always gets asked and no one says anything. I'm certain adjusting the H hold would fix it. Only other fix I've found is to run it through an extron 202 first with serration on.

[Sid]

Not sure if others get, or notice, this - but I've found that the focus on my PVMs are orientation specific. Meaning that the best focus settings for 0 degrees, 90 degrees anti-clockwise, and 90 degrees clockwise (damn you Namco), are different.

Note - I was always very careful when rotating, ie. didn't bang the thing around. So doubt that I caused the sets any physical stress over what would be unavoidable. Now, I keep them each at their own particular rotation permanently.