Skill (split from DDP high-score thread)

[BR1]

BTW why is the jpn score so much different from the "non-jpn"? I mean, I just saw a 600 million superplay -_-

The actual DDP WR

http://www.cablenet.ne.jp/~works-k/sof.htm


Just unbelievable.

They aren't just completely dedicated to tre game.

They have an incredible shmups talent.

[sikraiken]

BTW why is the jpn score so much different from the "non-jpn"? I mean, I just saw a 600 million superplay -_-

The actual DDP WR

http://www.cablenet.ne.jp/~works-k/sof.htm


Just unbelievable.

They aren't just completely dedicated to tre game.

They have an incredible shmups talent.

It is a few things (mainly): they are dedicated, disciplined, focused, persistent, and they learn from their mistakes. You don't need to have "talent" to begin with to be good at shooters. You just need the heart to continue to learn what needs to be done. That is the only way I did one of the things I wanted to do with DDP.

[Neon]

BTW why is the jpn score so much different from the "non-jpn"? I mean, I just saw a 600 million superplay -_-

The actual DDP WR

http://www.cablenet.ne.jp/~works-k/sof.htm


Just unbelievable.

They aren't just completely dedicated to tre game.

They have an incredible shmups talent.

It is a few things (mainly): they are dedicated, disciplined, focused, persistent, and they learn from their mistakes. You don't need to have "talent" to begin with to be good at shooters. You just need the heart to continue to learn what needs to be done. That is the only way I did one of the things I wanted to do with DDP.

Definitely. Saying only the Japanese could get such a score is a little racist, if you sat in a small room playing a DDP cab for eternity you'd probably wreck any Japanese records.

Smraedis, saw your play on MARP, impressive, you have twice my high I think. Stole some ideas for stage 2 ^_^

[BR1]

I'm not saying that ONLY japanese peolpe can get those scores.
I'm just saying that such a score takes (time, hearth and) a lot of talent.
According to you ANYBODY could get those results.
Well I'm saying: if you're not good at shmups you cannot. Not even in a couple of centuries.

I'm also referring to those shmuppers who 1CC a Cave game after a couple of days. I don't think it can just be "luck"...

Neon If I say:"No Liechtenstein's basketball player will never be an NBA MVP!", am I racist?

[CIT]

I think experience plays a big part. The more shooters you've played, the better you will get at them.

Also, Japanese players have the opportunity to go to a game center everyday, watch other players, learn from their mistakes, and discuss strategies. Most Western shmuppers have to sit alone in front of their Playstation 2, can only watch a handful of superplays online, and discuss gameplay in forums like these (which is more complicated and takes longer).

[freddiebamboo]

I think experience plays a big part. The more shooters you've played, the better you will get at them.

Also, Japanese players have the opportunity to go to a game center everyday, watch other players, learn from their mistakes, and discuss strategies. Most Western shmuppers have to sit alone in front of their Playstation 2, can only watch a handful of superplays online, and discuss gameplay in forums like these (which is more complicated and takes longer).

Nail hit on the head.

[sikraiken]

According to you ANYBODY could get those results.

I believe anyone can get those results.

Well I'm saying: if you're not good at shmups you cannot. Not even in a couple of centuries.

You don't have to be good to start with. You get good eventually. Of course, some people start off better than others, but that's based on a variety of factors.

I'm also referring to those shmuppers who 1CC a Cave game after a couple of days. I don't think it can just be "luck"...

That isn't luck, it's what Seven Force said. It's experience.

[BR1]

Guys I simply cannot understand why is so hard for you to accept that men are not equally talented.

Think about Music, math, writing, science, sports... I mean: in EVERY human discipline some guys are just better than others.

There're hundreds of NBA players but not everybody in able to score 81 points in a single match!

Why shmups must be different?!?

I totally agree with you when you say that everybody can improve a lot if has the possibility to learn from a lot of good players, and trys hard for a lot, but simple knowledge and heart isn't enough to get those results. Especially in shmups...


Sik I've been playing shmups since 1985, so I don't lack in "experience", but I would NEVER be able to 1CC Mushihime in 2 days...

[Salem Witch Trials!]

Woah look, when you shoot your laser it makes dragon heads, never noticed that

[sikraiken]

Guys I simply cannot understand why is so hard for you to accept that men are not equally talented.

Think about Music, math, writing, science, sports... I mean: in EVERY human discipline some guys are just better than others.

There're hundreds of NBA players but not everybody in able to score 81 points in a single match!

Why shmups must be different?!?

I totally agree with you when you say that everybody can improve a lot if has the possibility to learn from a lot of good players, and trys hard for a lot, but simple knowledge and heart isn't enough to get those results. Especially in shmups...


Sik I've been playing shmups since 1985, so I don't lack in "experience", but I would NEVER be able to 1CC Mushihime in 2 days...

Men are not equally talented to begin with, no. Also, all men have different physical limitations (such as runners). However, I think with video games (atleast the type you sit down and play ), everyone has the chance to be as good as everyone else. Some people may just have to put more time into it.

With what you said about every human discipline, yes, some are better than others, but that isn't to say (once again) that if others tried hard enough they couldn't match them. Of course sports become a different story with, as I said, physical limitation. Although while some are "naturals" at sports, I still think that others can build up to the best (except when it gets to the point of physical limitations of different people). I don't believe there are different mental limitations (besides in people who have health problems). Maybe there is? I don't know why I'm playing games then, besides to have fun.

I started playing video games when I was 2 (1990). I 1cc'ed Mushi Original and Maniac both within a few of tries. If you had asked me to do that a few years ago (if that had been possible, since the game didn't exist), I would have laughed. I am by no means a good player, but experience over the past few years has definitely allowed me to personally do things I never would have thought possible before. This is also why I think other people can do the same.



Salem Witch Trials: That is crazy, I never noticed that. :O How'd you find that out?

[Venom]

Right on SiK.

[sikraiken]

Right on SiK.

Also, I would like to point to something written by Randorama:

http://www.free-conversant.com/gaming_journals/1137

[ArrogantBastard]

Folks, take it elsewhere. This is a high scoring thread, not debate on whether Japanese players are one-trick ponies or not.

Sorry I have to be like this way, but it doesn't really belong here.

[Ghegs]

Folks, take it elsewhere. This is a high scoring thread, not debate on whether Japanese players are one-trick ponies or not.

Sorry I have to be like this way, but it doesn't really belong here.

Agreed, so I moved the discussion to its own thread. Go wild, people.

Edit: Yes, I know Salem Witch Trials!'s post wasn't part of the discussion, but it was already referenced to in another post and didn't have much to do with the high-score thread either. So along it came.

[ArrogantBastard]

Now, since this is in General Chat. I have just one thing to ask you, BR1...

In this thread, you make claims that Japanese are born "talented" and yet, on another thread in Mushihimesama high score thread. You said: "Simply because a lot of good japanese players spent a lot of time and knowledge on those games."

What are you trying to say here? I'm asking you to clarify it and decide on which one it is that you're trying to say here, since you seem to be confused in posting your replies on two separate threads about skills. Make up your mind...

Edit: I'm not flaming you or anything, but I'm sassing you a bit since you seem pretty ignorant about this subject.

[Randorama]

Hmmmm

i'm double-posting this entry but: Italian people (like me), could you avoid the typical habit of posting (and flaming) in unrelated threads? It's a bit depressing to see that once you've started posting on this board, it's to flame about the fake scores and the usual, extremely boring and shallow discourse about how much you worship japanese players

Some more constructive and on-topics posts would be nice

[Venom]

Also, I would like to point to something written by Randorama:

http://www.free-conversant.com/gaming_journals/1137

I was actually thinking about that post, thanks for the link.

[Nemo]

I'm surprised anyone can say mastering shooters doesn't take skills. Practice and repetition can overcome shortcomings, but if you're talking about achieving WRs, this isn't a feat anyone can do. There's so many variables involved that it's impossible to list them all, and pointless to try and calculate some equation for success. Believing otherwise not only trivializes the experience, you're basically saying "he who plays the longest is the best", but you're also treating humans as machines. The biggest problem is that people are looking at skills in a too confined sense (think characteristics or abilities), for instance stress management and personal dedication are 2 skills that are essential for this type of activity, however everyone isn't predisposed with the same levels of these. Now some people can be trained, but others can't because it simply isn't part of their personality. Likewise, comprehension and analysis are 2 more skills, which have to do with one's intelligence, obviously everyone isn't as intelligent as everyone else. Again, there are those that will claim this can be overcome through training, but it depends on the type of manuals you're using.

Which brings me to the point of superplays, one can theoretically nullify any inefficiency as long as they the skill of being able to see and repeat what they are seeing (even still this is still a skill as well). However, even if you approached it this way, you would only be matching someone else's feat instead of creating a WR. But clearly in talking about shooter accomplishments, how is it an accomplishment if you're using a cheat sheet? Do university's hand degrees by simply giving you a test with the answers? Bottomline, not everyone has the inate skill to be a WR player, however it has nothing to do with your race.

[Rob]

Believing otherwise not only trivializes the experience, you're basically saying "he who plays the longest is the best"

It is trivial.

[sikraiken]

you're basically saying "he who plays the longest is the best"

Yeah, that's what I've been trying to pretty much say in a nutshell. Thanks.

[professor ganson]

Yeah, I was thinking just what Nemo wrote. I know for a fact that I have limitations that would keep me from ever attaining a WR. My main limitation is that I don't have time. But even if I did, forget about it.

When I was a teen, I was good at chess and put a lot of time into it. Would more time have made me a grandmaster? Who knows, but it is highly doubtful.

I'm a professional philosopher. I would be a better one if I didn't have to teach and raise two kids. Would I be one of the top five philosophers in the country? Surely not.

It's not all about time and dedication. As Nemo pointed out, doing well at shmups involves a kind of intelligence that isn't equally distributed.

[sikraiken]

Yeah, I was thinking just what Nemo wrote. I know for a fact that I have limitations that would keep me from ever attaining a WR. My main limitation is that I don't have time. But even if I did, forget about it.

Well there you go.

When I was a teen, I was good at chess and put a lot of time into it. Would more time have made me a grandmaster? Who knows, but it is highly doubtful.

Chess is a game that not only involves time in the game, but learning every little in and out of the game. Both are required to be grandmaster.

I'm a professional philosopher. I would be a better one if I didn't have to teach and raise two kids. Would I be one of the top five philosophers in the country? Surely not.

Being one of the top five philosophers in the country involves a variety of factors that I'm surely not familiar with, but I certainly realize exist. Time alone in that area wouldn't make you top five.

It's not all about time and dedication. As Nemo pointed out, doing well at shmups involves a kind of intelligence that isn't equally distributed.

It IS all about time and dedication with shooters. People who say this are people who haven't done those things to the extreme, then.

Also, in order to be good, you need to think you can be good. No offense, but your attitude gives off the hint that you don't think you can be as good as the best. The fact is, you can be!! Please correct me if I am wrong.

[Zweihander]

You don't have to be Japanese to excel at manic shmups... but it helps. :/

[elvis]

Surely the physical side to it matters too, not just intellectual. There's a level of hand/eye co-ordination and natural reflexes that haven't been mentioned (possibly not so much in "pattern" shumps, but still necessary).

Yes, these are things that can be trained. But there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that some people are just naturally better than others. People are using chess as an example, which I think is not quite right. No chess champion lost because they couldn't dodge a bullet fast enough.

In every professional sport there are rankings. If it was just a matter of whoever trained the most winning all the time, we wouldn't see people come and go from the top rankings of sports. All humans are "wired" different, and at some point there will always be people who have a natural inclination towards a particular type of skill, whether it be pro sport, or a video game.

What I'm getting at is that if I sat in a room and played DDP for 20 hours a day, I'm sure that if you got 30 other people to do the same, you'd have 30 different high scores. Even with equal training you'll see variety in skill due to a physical limitation of some people that just cannot be overcome.

[Acid King]

Why shmups must be different?!?

Becuase shooters are mechanical and not creative in nature. Anyone can write a book, a song, an opera, scientific/philosophical theories, etc, however, not everyone can write a good song, a good book etc. With mechanical things like games the only creativity required is figuring out the system and maximizing it. Despite the slags at Ikaruga, every shooter is essentialy a puzzle game. Once the solution is figured out or revealed, it's all memorization, repetition and refinement.

Some people are better at figuring them out, develop skills quicker, etc, but I don't think comparing a mechanical act of memorizing button presses in an exact sequence is comparable to writing a great novel or song or to something that not everyone is physically capable of like blocking a 300 pound defensive lineman or blocking a jump shot taken by a 6'10" forward.

On a side note, what is skill? If skill is simply being able to perform an action (akin to being able to play a song written by someone else flawless or emulating nearly exactly a superplay) then I think pretty much everyone on this board has the potential to have world record skill. If skill is "writing the song", so to speak, then no, not everyone can develop such a high level of skill.

[MOSQUITO FIGHTER]

You don't have to be Japanese to excel at manic shmups... but it helps. :/

I'd bet that if these games were actually reaching a wider audience in countries other than Japan the scores would be more even. There's probably someone in the US who would be just as good at shooters as Clover-TAC. But that person probably doesn't know about shmups. It's such an obscure genre.

In reference to skill I think that everyone has alot of pontential to accomplish anything. But there do seem to be barriers that just can't seem to be overcome without a that certain something.

I think being exceptional at something is just kind of hit and miss.

[neorichieb1971]

Don't worry, if I win powerball I put a $100,000 prize to anyone who can beat it

[MadSteelDarkness]

Ehmm...am I experiencing deja-vu, or haven't we already had this thread?

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=1658&start=0

[NTSC-J]

Salem Witch Trials: That is crazy, I never noticed that. :O How'd you find that out?

Wow I never noticed that either, that's killer.

Sik, what was your goal in DDP?

[Plasmo]

I think it was a 2-ALL