Cave x Steam teaser!

[Some-Mist]

mushihimesama (hd)

Mushihimesama HD

Maybe they chose that one instead of Futari...

that's been my guess although it probably is futari. the background image is reminiscent of the last spread of tlb of mushi... and blackbird said there are a lot of different difficulty options on GAF a week ago... and the mushi hd port had 1.5 original, 1.5 maniac, 1.5 ultra, max original, max maniac, max ultra, novice original, novice maniac, and novice ultra. though I guess futari has a pretty similar setup too.

[CWM]

Honestly i think novice modes are a waste of time and don't actually bring hardly anyone into the genre beyond those modes, they just play the easy game and never go up from there. Look at the crimzon clover novice scoreboards on steam and you'l see even that cake walk of a game has hundreds who couldn't even get past stage 3 let alone clear it. The games can only accommodate so much before it comes right back to the player and there attitude/approach to playing.

Novice Original has 11x the clear rate of Arcade Original judging from Steam achievements. And if someone doesn't go up from there, well, where the hell do you go up to? Arcade Original? As a new player who found Novice challenging, you're not going to get anywhere in Arcade unless you literally devote DTP's proverbial hundreds of hours to it. If anything, the games need more difficulty levels and modes for this very reason. I was in this exact situation at the beginning of this year, and I ended up playing Touhou for like 2-3 months, as those games actually offered a gradual difficulty progression. If I tried some "easy, cheesy clear" like DDP immediately after Crimzon Clover, I might've been put off the genre altogether.

Honestly, if you think putting DDP on Steam without any lower difficulty settings will result in any measurable influx of new players, you're completely detached from the experience of actually playing an arcade shmup as a beginner.

[Some-Mist]

The only actually interesting novice mode I have seen so far is in Espgaluda II. I wanted to learn more about the scoring system without really bothering with survival when I just got the game and I could still score decently with a perfect learning curve. It was easy to no-miss the game though.

novice ultra in mushihimesama HD is where I spent the most time after my original and maniac clears. novice ultra starts out very reasonable and ends with a difficulty between maniac and ultra. I battled a couple people from GAF for the top 10 leaderboard spots and it actually ramps up quite nicely. Then they reset the scores ._.

[Cee]

you're completely detached from the experience of actually playing an arcade shmup as a beginner.

Possibly but i distinctly remember when i got into this genre and started playing around 7 years ago after getting my ass kicked my intuition lead me to search the net and begin the process of improving, I always viewed it as I need to improve to play this game and not "I need easy games to cater to my current level" and that's the problem if you don't have the desire or will or lack of excuses to improve at a tough game you probably never will. There's room for everyone but i'm yet to see anyone who walked up the ladder to proficiency from novice modes.

[emphatic]

SDOJ Novice Expert on the 360 is superb. I wish it was the default Arcade difficulty.

[Shepardus]

Maybe not "novice modes" in the typical sense, but I find the lower difficulties in Touhou games very helpful in getting accustomed to the games' fundamentals, and they're typically well-balanced such that the next higher difficulty starts to seem approachable when you've gotten accustomed to the lower difficulty. I don't think I would have ever really gotten into shmups if Lunatic was the only difficulty available to me. It was actually Normal and Extra that was too tough for me initially but was approachable enough that I could see how I was improving between attempts and where I could further improve. On the other hand, I didn't get the same feeling with Lunatic because I didn't know where to start. Original and Maniac modes in Mushi Futari serve a similar purpose, that game probably wouldn't be half as popular if Ultra (or God, if you prefer) were the only mode.

[Domino]

I really think Mushihimesama HD would be a great first title. I got my friends into shmups by them playing that. Then again I am bias since I don't always play Cave games but this one is one of the few that I touch.

Edit: The three modes helped quite a bit.

[LaserGun]

SDOJ so I can get a Maria background.

[d3vak]

I always viewed it as I need to improve to play this game and not "I need easy games to cater to my current level" and that's the problem if you don't have the desire or will or lack of excuses to improve at a tough game you probably never will.

I get your point, I really do. But it's just that -in general / in this forum- we are from another generation and have played a lot of hard games. Nowadays most kids/teens just can't handle hard games on a first approach. Hell, they can't even handle basic platformers.
The problem is that with all the options available out there, if newcomers don't get instantly hooked to a game...they will drop it, get a refund and never look back.

[CWM]

you're completely detached from the experience of actually playing an arcade shmup as a beginner.

Possibly but i distinctly remember when i got into this genre and started playing around 7 years ago after getting my ass kicked my intuition lead me to search the net and begin the process of improving, I always viewed it as I need to improve to play this game and not "I need easy games to cater to my current level" and that's the problem if you don't have the desire or will or lack of excuses to improve at a tough game you probably never will. There's room for everyone but i'm yet to see anyone who walked up the ladder to proficiency from novice modes.

Progress is best achieved (in my experience anyway) by working towards well-defined and achievable goals - for new players, this will usually be a 1cc, the genre standard for "beating" a game. I think it's, well, unrealistic to expect someone with no shmup experience to start grinding away at DDP until they can clear it many, many hours later. Some people will do that, of course, but I don't think expecting it is a good strategy of introducing new players to the genre. It's all statistics ultimately, the more people you can get to actually put some effort into an "easy" Novice mode (and I put scarequotes around easy because it will usually not be so for a complete beginner), the more of them will be likely to stick around and look for further challenges. Maybe just a fraction, but that's all the more reason to lower the barrier of entry.

And I don't know what you count as "proficiency", but if it's clearing the first loop of DDP, then I did exactly that by using Touhou Normal (and a few other "easy" games like Blue Wish Resurrection Plus) modes as my ladder towards that.

[Special World]

I think that the Novice modes in Cave games are way too easy to be any use to anyone, *except* where there's a novice ultra style mode. Futari and Saidaioujou both have great novice modes, even if I think novice strong is was too tough for a proper beginner mode. In that respect the Mushi port is actually preltty great-the arrange mode does a lot to curb the difficulty.

[eebrozgi]

I get your point, I really do. But it's just that -in general / in this forum- we are from another generation and have played a lot of hard games. Nowadays most kids/teens just can't handle hard games on a first approach. Hell, they can't even handle basic platformers.

Check the actual stockholder meeting linked in the article. There's no such talk, the article is apparently a joke that has sold too well.

Quicker method: check the front page of the article's website.

[Tregard]

This is a good chance to make these games as accessible as possible and grow the fan-base. A wider range of difficulty modes is the least they could do. Imagine an interactive tutorial on a given game's score mechanics, to help encourage people to engage with the score boards.

Simply putting the games out with no concessions made to a beginner audience will kill sales.

[d3vak]

There's no such talk, the article is apparently a joke that has sold too well.
Quicker method: check the front page of the article's website.

You are correct, the article was a joke, but the fact that they suck apparently isn't. That was what I was originally searching for.
Back then when I saw that video I couldn't believe it so I asked my little cousins to play SMB (On a tablet, though) AND THEY SUCKED BIG TIME!!

Hell I can't blame them but the industry. Even I got used to "recent" titles like Limbo or Fly'n or Rayman...and a month ago when nostalgia hit me I wen't back to play Donkey Kong Country 3 and it really took me a while to get used to the difficulty which by 1996 was easy. It turns out it isn't as easy as I remembered, because when I was 10 I could easily beat that game quickly.

Anyway, yeah. Novice mode for newcomers will do good.

[mdsfx]

I think that the Novice modes in Cave games are way too easy to be any use to anyone, *except* where there's a novice ultra style mode.

This. So much. When the standard modes were too challenging for me in Futari and Espgaluda 2, I switched to novice only to be surprised by the incredibly steep drop in difficulty. I went from having trouble at stage 3 to an easy 1cc in both games on novice. Way too easy and I didn't learn much from it that I could apply to the harder difficulties.

[awry]

Possibly but i distinctly remember when i got into this genre and started playing around 7 years ago after getting my ass kicked my intuition lead me to search the net and begin the process of improving, I always viewed it as I need to improve to play this game and not "I need easy games to cater to my current level" and that's the problem if you don't have the desire or will or lack of excuses to improve at a tough game you probably never will. There's room for everyone but i'm yet to see anyone who walked up the ladder to proficiency from novice modes.

Just because you got into shooting games "the hard way" doesn't mean everyone else should have to. Gradually increasing levels of difficulty, and clearly defined goals to shoot for (360 and steam achievements) make a game way more accessible. I know I wouldn't give a damn about bullet hells if the Touhou games didn't have 4 difficulty levels to choose from. I skipped Easy, started on Normal, and worked my way up to Lunatic. Thanks to that difficulty climbing, I was able to 1cc harder bullet hells, DoDonPachi and Deathsmiles.

[eebrozgi]

You are correct, the article was a joke, but the fact that they suck apparently isn't. That was what I was originally searching for.
Back then when I saw that video I couldn't believe it so I asked my little cousins to play SMB (On a tablet, though) AND THEY SUCKED BIG TIME!!

Hell I can't blame them but the industry. Even I got used to "recent" titles like Limbo or Fly'n or Rayman...and a month ago when nostalgia hit me I wen't back to play Donkey Kong Country 3 and it really took me a while to get used to the difficulty which by 1996 was easy. It turns out it isn't as easy as I remembered, because when I was 10 I could easily beat that game quickly.

Anyway, yeah. Novice mode for newcomers will do good.

A bunch of first timers playing SMB1 are just a bunch of first timers, regadless of their age or generation, so I think the statement of todays' kids/teens sucking is just plain unfair and unnecessary. Also, in case your little cousins were playing with touch controls, not many seasoned players cope with the hadicap brought by input lag and lack of proper button feedback either.

I do agree on novice modes and other accessibility-increasing things being generally a good thing, I really do.

[Strikers1945guy]

The people who use the normal novice modes for cave games are doing so because even a normal difficulty 1cc is too much of a challenge. They won't be trying to learn dick all about the scoring so it somewhat defeats the purpose of the games (to me). A 1cc is great but that's supposed to be like scratching the surface before playing the games properly for score. Won't / Dont novice modes encourage some people to get an easy 1cc, feel like they've accomplished something and then move on to the next one? Any new comers who see and use novice modes will most likely be detured from trying to actually play the real games beyond a novice 1cc.

[d3vak]

Any new comers who see and use novice modes will most likely be detured from trying to actually play the real games beyond a novice 1cc.

Even if that's the case, that means they bought the game, meaning as well that CAVE gathered more attention, wich would lead them to release more games on Steam for us all.

[Strikers1945guy]

[quote="d3vak"]Even if that's the case, that means they bought the game, meaning as well that CAVE gathered more attention, wich would lead them to release more games on Steam for us all. [/quote]

I get that, which is great.

To get a norMal mode 1cc most games require you to learn a bit about scoring to help with survival. A novice mode makes it so easy it's strictly pushing for 1cc play and won't engage many newcomers ?

[Special World]

Cave's novice modes would only deter new players because they're not any fun and they don't bridge the gap. Right now I'm playing Eschatos, which has a *great* learning curve from easy to normal to hard. I've beaten the easy and normal modes, and I'm working on hard and scoring strategies right now. No way would I have stuck it out if hard was the only mode, or if hard was the "basic" mode as compared to some kind of maniac and god modes. A good difficulty curve is a wonderful thing. Most Cave games don't have any sort of curve at all. I like SDOJ a lot, but fuck me if I'm gonna 1cc arcade mode anytime in the near future. It's not even worth thinking about.

[Special World]

Even "pushing for 1CC play" is better than "fuck this game, it's impossible." I don't think any player drawn to the genre is gonna crap out after playing "Novice Mode." To gamers, that might as well be called "stupid loser baby mode."

Which is part of the problem, but that's another thing entirely.

[d3vak]

To gamers, that might as well be called "stupid loser baby mode."

Well I struggle when looping Novice DFK. Now if you excuse me, I'm going back to my place:


But I guess that's just me, I love shoot em ups but honestly don't invest much of my time on them.

[Special World]

No, I'm right with you. I love 'em, but I'm very bad at 'em. Time for a Super Weenie Hut Jr. playdate.

[Domino]

The people who use the normal novice modes for cave games are doing so because even a normal difficulty 1cc is too much of a challenge. They won't be trying to learn dick all about the scoring so it somewhat defeats the purpose of the games (to me). A 1cc is great but that's supposed to be like scratching the surface before playing the games properly for score. Won't / Dont novice modes encourage some people to get an easy 1cc, feel like they've accomplished something and then move on to the next one? Any new comers who see and use novice modes will most likely be detured from trying to actually play the real games beyond a novice 1cc.

Not for everyone. When my friend purchased Futari he first played a lot of the easy mode then later moved up. He enjoys the game where the bullet count increases.

I say what Cave been doing with the difficulty mode selects is more than enough. Then again I don't believe players should be forced to try higher difficulty levels unless they are willing to do it. Keep in mind I might had misinterpret your post.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

They should remove the ability to continue in all the games. Then people will figure out that they can't just sit down and mash buttons and "beat" them.

[neorocker]

They should remove the ability to continue in all the games. Then people will figure out that they can't just sit down and mash buttons and "beat" them.

kind of a silly idea. continues serve more purpose than just mashing your way through games. i tend to practice all the way through a game rather than "up to end of credit", it's just what i prefer. i think the happy balance (and i think it's been discussed before) is the "unlock credits through playtime", which forces a bit of practice and skill improvement on early stages.

[Shepardus]

IMO it's enough to have continues disabled by default and put it somewhere in the options menu. That should be enough to get the message across that using continues isn't the "intended" way to play the game. Ikaruga does that and I don't see anyone complaining about being able to continue through that.

[Squire Grooktook]

My ideal is, you have two modes:

Arcade
Training

Arcade has no continues ever.
Training lets you play the game with continues, select stages and scenes, tailor lives/bombs. I think that gets the message across while letting people see the rest of the game or practice if they want.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

They should remove the ability to continue in all the games. Then people will figure out that they can't just sit down and mash buttons and "beat" them.

kind of a silly idea.

If it's in an arcade sucking quarters it makes sense.