How do you feel about BOMBS ?

[DoubleDash]

I have this proof of concept Here for my game Racketboy and now I'm working on a demo, a complete level, and I'm trying to make it feel as much as a SHMUP as possible, by making it more fast-paced and improving on mechanics. While thinking about design aspects of the game, I stumbled upon the BOMB issue. I believe that most Shmups usually give the player the option of unleashing epic destruction while also protecting yourself via the use of well-placed bombs, other games, like Jamestown, use a Vaunt system to protect the player, and give him other options for his secondary weapon.

What do you guys think about this? Would you rather have that insane, but limited destructive power that can save your life every now and then, or having a smaller, but controlled secondary weapon accompanied by some sort of evasive maneuver? Or maybe a third option that I didn't think of?

[Noid]

One of my favorite things in shmups is customization. Jamestown is a great example, as well as Caladrius Blaze, and Raiden to a lesser extent. Personally I feel like having multiple characters with different abilities lengthens the time I spend with a game, and makes it more interesting.

As for brainstorming a third option, what about maybe a "dash"? I've seen your game and I think it might be cool if the character could dash, granting a short invincibility. A good example of this is Astebreed. I made a video with a good example of this in action here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu9LqKViyws

Starting at around the 40 second mark you need to dash through the red lasers. Maybe you could implement something like that? Basically the dash grants invincibility for the duration of the dash, but leaves you vulnerable for about a half second AFTER the dash. This way, you have to be ever mindful of where you are dashing TO, so you're not just dashing for invincibility, you are dashing AWAY from trouble.

[broken harbour]

I'm a big fan of a reflecting shield mechanic, I feel like it's under utilized in shmups.

I also like Bombs too, as sometimes you just need that twitch "oh crap" button. A mechanic that allows you to use a bomb or reflect shield that use the same resources could be cool. ie - bomb or shield both use bomb stock....

[DoubleDash]

As for brainstorming a third option, what about maybe a "dash"? I've seen your game and I think it might be cool if the character could dash, granting a short invincibility. A good example of this is Astebreed. I made a video with a good example of this in action here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu9LqKViyws

Yes, we're considering the idea of having a dash as an evasive maneuver! I feel like my game could benefit a lot from it, considering that it could help players save a ball that's far away, as well as evading attacks. And I didn't know Astebreed, so thanks for the great reference

Also, about the customization subject, that's another issue I'm considering. In terms of production, having multiple characters requires a great deal of time and resources. But another way to customize your strategies would be to adopt a Parodius/Twinbee style power-up, where you can hit the item and force it to change to something you want before you pick it up. It creates an interesting Risk/Reward situation where you can choose what power you want to pick up, but making it harder to get. How do you feel about that option?

I'm a big fan of a reflecting shield mechanic, I feel like it's under utilized in shmups.

I also like Bombs too, as sometimes you just need that twitch "oh crap" button. A mechanic that allows you to use a bomb or reflect shield that use the same resources could be cool. ie - bomb or shield both use bomb stock....

Well, my game's main mechanic is all about reflecting bullets, haha I'm not too sure about the "Bomb stock" feature, I'm stuck between something that might be limited by stocks, or something that has unlimited use but is controlled some other way, like a cooldown or something like that.

[eebrozgi]

Not a big fan of how they're often implemented.

I'm not at all against a limited, super destructive resource that also grants instant safety. That's pretty cool. My distaste for it starts at the moment when it's designed so that you must not use it at all in high level play. M-KAI put it well so I might as well quote him:

I think its good when a game can allow for that division between "bombs saved for points" and "bombs for escaping." Bombs are also supposed to be flashy weapons that add a certain flavor to the presentation of the game, so I think its a waste when you're penalized for using them, and the bomb button simply becomes the "thou shalt not press" button.

Another thing about bombs is that I feel like they're often added in almost solely because every other shmup has them too. That isn't inherently wrong as long as it works, but the concept of bombs is so very seen at this point and I'd rather see more experiementation with the genre.

[Rozyrg]

^Very well said.

My own feelings:
They shouldn't be given out like candy, allow the player to kill tension/challenge to the point of totally disrupting the flow of the game, there should always be some risk/tradeoff in using them, they shouldn't *ever* be expected for the player to use; but their downsides shouldn't be severe to the point of making the player fear using them.

I've used them in a few non-standard ways in the past:
- Overall bomb stock is limited to a set amount per game, not per lives. You are also given a super attack that will deplete more from the stock. (Fire Arrow)
- Different bomb types with different pros and cons - 1 nullifies enemy bullets but does no damage, the other does both but incurs a penalty preventing medals from being generated (Flying V OUYA)

For more traditional ones, I generally like the way Raiden does it - the bomb falls slowly, meaning you still need to pilot carefully several seconds before it goes off and it also will only affect enemies within it's blast radius. For funkier 'modern' ones, I like Giga Wing's, which is more just like a recharging special attack. The difference is how much the game expects you to use it and also how timing and skill play into it's effectiveness and additional scoring potential.

Another thing worth mentioning is that even if you have an old fashioned 'screen-wiper', it's probably best to not design around the player having a get out of trouble instantly button. Structure the game's challenges as if it weren't even there.

[Ixmucane2]

Another unusual direction: making skillful bomb use important for performing well and scoring high, as a sporadic and specialized but equally worthy counterpart of attacking continuously with the main weapon.

For example:

• Bonuses for destroying many enemies at a time (and/or for having many on screen), maximized by using the bomb for mass destruction after deliberately not shooting many enemies in order to accumulate them
• Bonuses for rapid destruction, maximized by bombing quickly when certain high-value formations appear
• High-value enemies that can be attacked properly only with bombs, because the bomb has an area of effect and kills swarms of defenders, because it ignores armour, because it penetrates defensive screens, because it simply is the only way to do enough damage in a limited time before the enemy escapes, and so on
• Aiming bombs in addition to timing them well: through a shield gap, to avoid unimportant targets, to deal extraordinary damage with a direct hit to a small "core", etc.

Making bomb use a good thing requires bomb-friendly scoring rules: bombs don't break chains (except indirectly by not leaving enough survivors), don't destroy or devalue score items, don't give bonuses for not using them that exceed the value of using them, etc.

[DoubleDash]

Thank you all for the suggestions
I've decided to take the option where I give the character an evasive maneuver, a short Dash. As for destructive options, I'm thinking of trying a different approach to them that might work well with my game. For those who played it, you might have noticed that the ball gets super-charged after you hit it X consecutive times. That will be the approach I'll try to take on "bombs". It won't be useable as an immediate answer, but you will be rewarded for keeping a couple of projectiles under control, by receiving some huge destructive power that you will be able to maintain while your skill allows it. I'll be writing about it on my game's Devlog.
The idea is that you get, for example, a super-powered ball that spawns explosions whenever it hits something, or just a ball that explodes into a huge-ass laser
For immediate evasive responses, you will have the Dashing option, so you don't really need the bomb for that.
I'm hoping that will turn bombs into something you achieve with effort, acting as a nice reward. You will also be able to choose the effect that a ball will get when super-charged, allowing for some strategic customization. I hope this system will be enough to provide some interesting challenges and options

Thanks again for the opinions!

[tiaoferreira]

Well, I like bombs. Every battle, every war, has bombs.

In "PIXEL FIGHTERS", there are four types of bombs, and each of them has a specific function:

The default bomb, at starting game, is BLUE. It is a "spread bomb" and its strong point is to destroy quickly any little enemies on perimeter, and also is capable to cause several damage on strongest enemies, but it does not destroy enemy bullets. The inspiration is from yellow RAIDEN bomb;


The RED bomb is like famous "GRAND SLAM", it release a strong and heavy charge of TNT, destroying any type of enemy, but only in one direction (from down to up). It does not destroy enemy bullets too;


The GREEN bomb is a powerful air strike, and it clears the screen of anything enemy objects, including enemy bullets. A big bomber drop the charge with parachutes;


The YELLOW bomb is a massive bomb inspired on RAIDEN RED BOMB. It clear the screen, but only under middle to down, and destroy enemy bullets too.


The use of bombs has some prices: player obtains less points and loses some bonus at the end of stage. Basic and classic punishment

Anyway, if player needs to use, DO IT!

[MintyTheCat]

It does depend on how the Shmup is designed. RECCA has the charge shot that functions as a bomb and that kind of makes sense but generally speaking I am against the use of bombs in Shmups.

Even if I have no lives left and I am in a situation playing dodonpachi I do not to bomb.
I do tend to use the bomb more often in ibara.

I think it depends on the Shmup's design overall for these reasons.

[Xyga]

I like bombs if they're integrated to the gameplay and/or scoring as strategic weapons you can actually use (but not something you can spam to make the game easier).

I too hate when bombs musn't be touched to inflate the score, the 'you shall not press B' is one of the stupidiest ideas ever, might as well completely remove bombs from the game.

Another thing I hate are charging bombs/shields if the charging time is too long, or if there's delay between the actual attack and the moment I release the button.

[MintyTheCat]

I like bombs if they're integrated to the gameplay and/or scoring as strategic weapons you can actually use (but not something you can spam to make the game easier).

Yes, I agree with that idea myself that bombs for the sake of bombs simply to make the game easier. However, it does entail that the game's level becomes something that a beginner can handle and indeed a Shmupper with more experience of the game will no doubt not want to 'make it easy'.

I
I too hate when bombs musn't be touched to inflate the score, the 'you shall not press B' is one of the stupidiest ideas ever, might as well completely remove bombs from the game.

I disagree: you can have the bomb but you pay a premium for it in that you do not get the points in some way and that means that the beginner has an easier time of it but does not get the higher score and also means that the more adept Shmupper can get a reward and develop a play style for that Shmup that is going to be riskier but rewards them with points.

No one is saying to you not to use the bombs It becomes a personal choice. For DDP I see it as playing harder to not use the bombs but that is my choice. I do not learn anything really by dropping the bombs No one is stopping you using the bombs and in a way it is good for beginners or level adept Shmuppers to use bombs as it gives them the feeling of working with power and that is one of the tenets of a Shmup that I look for personally and I dare many a beginner relishes.

I
Another thing I hate are charging bombs/shields if the charging time is too long, or if there's delay between the actual attack and the moment I release the button.

That plays into the more strategic way of thinking and playing and the Shmupper develops a sense for it. A prime example of this would be Mars-Matrix where I find myself having to plan when to use the Mosquito.

But in all things: each to their own

[DoubleDash]

It does depend on how the Shmup is designed. RECCA has the charge shot that functions as a bomb and that kind of makes sense but generally speaking I am against the use of bombs in Shmups.

That makes a lot of sense. I made a post in our Devlog talking about how we're going to use bombs in our game, so check it out there and give me your opinion

We'll basically be using a special that rewards player skill, his ability to keep the same ball on-screen for a long time.

[BPzeBanshee]

I'm of the view that bombs are something to be used as stock, a limited secondary weapon as intended. But of course what kind of weapon you use is going to need to fit into your game somehow.

In Zenohell we have generally kept our bomb system this way with two caveats - it serves a score-gaining purpose by amplifying the multiplier of boss corpses to produce more medals and also a defensive purpose in clearing bullets. You have a weapon, why not use it? The trick is in how you use it to master the game.