Graphical differences in PS1 games played on PS2

Xan · Post by **Xan** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:12 pm

So I just played around a bit with Crash Team Racing (PAL version, which incidentally has much bigger borders than the other three games... guess they either reduced the rendering resolution on purpose or just went lazy for the PAL port) and thought the results might interest some here... basically, when using the turbo boost there is an exhaust effect which cools off slowly. On my SCPH-90004 PS2 this leaves a noticeable darkish shadow around the player for a few seconds, while the transition is completely unnoticeable on my SCPH-5502 PS1. I've heard vague remarks about this on the internet but never concrete examples of games, so this is definitely a case where the PS1 offers better image quality. This is via RGB of course, none of this is probably even visible with composite.

I don't have a fat PS2 to test with, but it seems something about transparent textures is poorly implemented in the emulated GPU...

Edit: just did a comparison of the systems:

http://i.imgur.com/7Uimhbz.jpg (PS2)
http://i.imgur.com/gjeytVD.jpg (PS1)

Apart from this effect this particular game looks identical to me on the two consoles, so the relevance of this will vary a lot depending on game.

austin532 · Post by **austin532** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:19 am

It's a known fact that several PS1 games have slight graphical issues when using the PS2 and IMO the PS2 outputs a slightly sharper image compared to the 550X which is the 2nd generation I believe. Granted I'm using a PS2 5000X which is the fat model. I hear the Slim PS2 models emulate PS1 games instead of using actual hardware. Is this true or did someone get mixed up with the later PS3 models?

Anyways, after running a similar test I get the same results and on a side note the boarders are bigger than the previous 3 Crash games with the NTSC versions as well so it's not a PAL only thing. The shadow effect is still visible even while using Component and S-Video. I haven't tried Composite because all of my Composite cables are buried away somewhere.....where they belong.

Xan · Post by **Xan** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:33 am

Statements such as "PS1 on PS2 isn't emulation, the PS2 contains a whole PS1 inside" are pretty commonplace, so I really wouldn't call this all that widely known. I wouldn't dramatize this either though as some people might prefer playing on a PS2 with texture filtering, and on many 2D only games like Alundra I'm sure this is a non-issue since no such effects would be used at all.

The Slim PS2 being any different (aside from the apparently higher EE clock) seems to be a false rumor; the PS1 CPU is still used as an I/O processor in regular operation so just cutting that for cost seems impossible. What's true is that the GPU was emulated from the very beginning, which is how the filtering option is there in the first place (and how issues like this one appear).

Suspected as much about the NTSC version... even according to Andy Gavin himself the Crash games underwent meticulous PAL optimization, so skimping on that for CTR just wouldn't seem right. They all render in a slightly higher vertical resolution to compensate for the loss in framerate.

BONKERS · Post by **BONKERS** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:13 am

I'm pretty sure the Slim introduced changes that cause more glitches with PS1 games. And even PS2 games
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_P ... yStation_2

Xan · Post by **Xan** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:32 am

This seems to be specific to just 7500x though, which was the first line to introduce some major changes to the hardware. Who knows how well they run on later revisions, I certainly couldn't be arsed checking them all out even if I had all the games at hand

although I do know that TS2 runs perfectly fine on the 90004.

I did ask all these hardware questions some years ago over at PSX-Scene, here's the topic: http://psx-scene.com/forums/f20/ps1-bac ... ns-120077/

brownvim · Post by **brownvim** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:36 am

I love this game, 1st game I played when I got my XRGB

Xan · Post by **Xan** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:43 am

Yeah, I'd take this over MK64 any day

FBX · Post by **FBX** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:22 am

One very blatant issue is the moon in Olrox's Quarters of Castlevania SotN. On the PS2, there's a big ugly square shadow around it. On the PS1, no big ugly square shadow.

kamiboy · Post by **kamiboy** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:03 am

What a coincidence, the moon in SOTN was the first thing that came to mind when I saw the thread.

austin532 · Post by **austin532** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:34 pm

Pretty sure that's the flaw that everyone knows of. That shadow square is noticeable even while using Composite thru a CRT so this leads me to believe that the turbo shadow from CTR is visible as well using the same setup. It's definitely a "PS2 causing the problem" and not a "sharp RGB image causing the problem".

Josh128 · Post by **Josh128** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:20 pm

Are those images from a Trinitron, or a PVM?

Xan · Post by **Xan** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:33 pm

I took these from my Sony KV-14LT1E, so a consumer Trinitron.

I'd test how SotN looks on a PS2, but I only have a NTSC copy and my modded 70004 absolutely sucks at playing different region PS1 games...

korpse413 · Post by **korpse413** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:44 am

Is the moral here to just play each game on its respected platform? I have both systems hooked up for play, guess because i'm a stubborn purist

I know in the speedrunning community its 'faster' to use the loading times of a Slim PS2 when playing games with required cutscenes / multi disc swaps, but I guess this has to do with disc read speed since its a value you can change in the PS2 menu right?

Josh128 · Post by **Josh128** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:35 am

I find SoTN looks fine on my silver PS2 slim via component. Most of the pics I posted of the game are from the PS2 on the F4500.

Played through the game about a year and a half ago, never even noticed the issues mentioned above-- does it apply for both the old fat PS2 and the newer slim ones? I dont remember if my most recent playthrough (before the pics I posted) was on the fat or the slim.

austin532 · Post by **austin532** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:50 am

It's definitely there on all three model versions of the fat. Did they fix with the later slim models?

Xan · Post by **Xan** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:05 am

korpse` wrote:Is the moral here to just play each game on its respected platform? I have both systems hooked up for play, guess because i'm a stubborn purist

I know in the speedrunning community its 'faster' to use the loading times of a Slim PS2 when playing games with required cutscenes / multi disc swaps, but I guess this has to do with disc read speed since its a value you can change in the PS2 menu right?

You make an interesting point about speedruns there - for disc based consoles there are several variables like the condition of the drive or the disc itself which would affect the overall time of the run. I have one of these aftermarket lasers in one of my PS1s and I don't think it's any faster than the original ones. The faster loading option on PS2 can help in some games but I never really used it due to the added noise.

I did check out the SotN moon on the PS1, there is actually a pretty sophisticated (for the time) dynamic "shadow" effect going on which I don't think I ever paid attention to before.

FBX · Post by **FBX** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:07 am

austin532 wrote:It's definitely there on all three model versions of the fat. Did they fix with the later slim models?

Nope. Shows up on my slim model as well. I think Josh needs to prove it by posting pics of the moon. Of course we'll have to trust he isn't going to fudge it by showing a ps1 pic...

Einzelherz · Post by **Einzelherz** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:53 pm

FBX wrote:
austin532 wrote:It's definitely there on all three model versions of the fat. Did they fix with the later slim models?
Nope. Shows up on my slim model as well. I think Josh needs to prove it by posting pics of the moon. Of course we'll have to trust he isn't going to fudge it by showing a ps1 pic...

Or it's something that's not really that important and we don't have to start insinuating ulterior motives.

Josh128 · Post by **Josh128** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:11 pm

FBX wrote:
austin532 wrote:It's definitely there on all three model versions of the fat. Did they fix with the later slim models?
Nope. Shows up on my slim model as well. I think Josh needs to prove it by posting pics of the moon. Of course we'll have to trust he isn't going to fudge it by showing a ps1 pic...

Prove what? That I dont remember seeing an artifact from a playthrough a year and a half ago that I wasnt looking for / didnt even know existed

? By saying it looked "fine", I just meant the game in general, in my humble opinion. If all PS2s have the moon artifact, Im sure mine has it as well, I just dont recall noticing it.

You must have had some extra strong coffee this morning.

broken harbour · Post by **broken harbour** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:19 pm

[quote="korpse`"]Is the moral here to just play each game on its respected platform? I have both systems hooked up for play, guess because i'm a stubborn purist

quote]

I do the same thing, but its more to prolong the life of each console.

Except for PS1 imports, I use my Japanese PS2 for that.

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Graphical differences in PS1 games played on PS2

Graphical differences in PS1 games played on PS2

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