How to change the default resolution PS3 outputs?

[Obiwanshinobi]

It's not mentioned in the quick start manual. According to my TV, it runs in 1080p, that I don't need (the TV's 1360x768, so it scales down). Now, running WipEout HD Fury, I'd prefer 720p so I can see if the screen tearing's reduced and whether the dynamic resolution scaling makes any difference to the naked eye when it's all downscaled anyway.
How can I tell my PS3 to settle for 720p?

P.S. Found it. Feel free to lock the thread.

[HydrogLox]

Going to 720p may not do what you think it does. Granted the 3D version is locked to 720p but I distinctly recall a member of the Studio Liverpool development team mentioning that the engine would (originally) always render in its native resolution (1080p or thereabouts). It was stated that for 720p the last stage of the rendering pipeline would be configured to downscale the rendered image - so a 720p setting doesn't actually reduce the rendering load. Now Wipeout HD has been patched a lot - so by now there might be a leaner rendering engine for 720p - just don't count on it.

Edit: I realize that this information contradicts the statements that are made in the interview - and I wish I could find the source of that statement simply to figure out at which point in time it was true.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I must admit 1080p downscaled on my telly does look sharper than 720p upscaled (in WipEout HD Fury, physical copy which I think is the latest build; the interview I linked to predates that PAL release).
It is said in the interview that dynamic horizontal resolution scaling is not enabled in 720p (not that I can tell when it's happening on my setup).

[HydrogLox]

It is said in the review that dynamic horizontal resolution scaling is not enabled in 720p

The dynamic resolution system varies from 1920x1080 to 1280x1080. So at least at one point in time 720p could lock to 1280x1080 and then scale that to 1280x720 - that way they wouldn't have needed separate 720p rendering.

in WipEout HD Fury, physical copy which I think is the latest build.

Connected to PSN you would be on the latest patch anyway. I'm pretty sure that the physical and PSN releases are on the same patch level even though they have separate trophies (at least between my Asian Disc and NA PSN release).

[Obiwanshinobi]

Was there Asian disc release? I thought WipEout's never been popular outside of PAL regions.
What a game to stare at, though! The prettiest I've seen on this side of OutRun 2006. Well worth that 1080p icing on the cake, even somewhat compromised as it's in my case.

[BazookaBen]

Actually, 720p isn't downscaled in Wipeout HD. If you choose 720p, the game renders it natively with 2x MSAA. So that should look really good, possibly better than 1080p on your display. Input lag may also be better, especially if you have a "just scan" option where you will have a 24 pixel black border on top and bottom and a around 90 pixels on left and right.

Source: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digit ... -interview

I wish games this optimized weren't so rare. Studio Liverpool really knocked it out of the park

[Obiwanshinobi]

Nah, 1080p looks sharper over here, anisotropy is less apparent (some aliasing shows, but the game's art favours clarity). I don't have means to compare the input lag, but it feels responsive enough for my liking (I'm not a WipEout veteran or anything).

Neither mode shows much tearing, too (mostly upper part of the screen, as they say). Stunning job.

[BazookaBen]

Nah, 1080p looks sharper over here, anisotropy is less apparent

I see. I thought they would apply enough anisotropic filtering to compensate in 720p. And since your TV is just above 720p (768p), a scaled 720p image is going to look a little nasty unless you can just run the centered just-scan image.

But yeah, that tearing at the top of the screen is interesting. I think it's like a semi-vsync thing they implemented, maybe a way to keep the input lag to an absolute minimum by allowing a few lines of leeway for frame refreshes. So yeah, playing this in 1080p on my PC CRT feels as good as it looks.

[Obiwanshinobi]

720p scaled via PS3 doesn't look that bad; it's just that 1080p looks better in this game's case.
I doubt scaling adds any significant delay; many PS2-gen console games do that kind of post-processing seemingly for free (some PS2 games up to 1080i without breaking a sweat). Resolution never seemed to make any difference in MAME either (where pretty much everything is upscaled to an extent). It must be a trivial task in this day and age.

[BazookaBen]

PS3 doesn't scale games, for the most part. So if you pick 720p, it's throwing out a 720p signal, and your TV does the scaling. Definitely a gripe a lot of people have with the PS3, since most TV scalers add lag to some degree.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I wonder how they know TV scalers add lag (I understand how it can be measured, but most users don't have necessary equipment handy).
Using PS3 with my telly, I don't really have a choice as in the TV's "Normal" (i.e. no scaling) format, I'm seeing deformed picture (I think the window's 4:3). "Normal" works mostly fine with computer, mind, but with PS3 "Full" is the Hobson's choice.

Anyway, I can only hope when running in "Game" mode, TV applies some "light" scaling routine.

[HydrogLox]

Was there Asian disc release?

I got it from Play-Asia marked as an Asian release. The SKU is BCAS-20100 rather than BCES-00664

Actually, 720p isn't downscaled in Wipeout HD. If you choose 720p, the game renders it natively with 2x MSAA.

"Downscaled" is the wrong term - here is the original statement from Sept. 28, 2008:

Disallow 1080i and 1080p in the display settings on your PS3 and see if the "problems" go away.

Whatever resolution you actually output to, the game still actually renders internally at 1920x1080 and then down-samples it to the target resolution.
...
I believe the down-sampling to lower resolutions is "hidden" inside other full screen post-processing things, so it shouldn't make a difference. Crob is the best person to answer these kinds of questions though... And I don't really know about HDMI bandwidth issues. I've got a cheapy 2m one of ebuyer and it works a treat.

Reconciling the various sources of information it seems that the rendering pipeline for 1080p and 720p is largely identical up until the final stage. For 1080p the final stage generates the 1920x1080 image from the dynamic 1920-1280x1080 render and applies the 2x2 filter. For 720p the fixed 1280x1080 render is "down-sampled" to 1280x720, this is probably when the 2xMSAA is applied as well (burning up whatever time savings the fixed 1280x1080 render may have realized).

60 FPS for single player (30 FPS for split screen) was the highest priority design goal for Wipeout HD closely followed by 1080p - the dynamic framebuffer was a necessary compromise. So Wipeout HD was designed to perform best on a 1080p display. 720p works but doesn't really give you any advantage unless you can't use 1080p.

... the TV's 1360x768, so it scales down.

Now this is an excellent reason to run Wipeout HD in 720p even if it is sub-optimal for the game. Wipeout HD 's 720p is probably better than 1080p scaled down to 720p by the TV (which may also introduce additional display lag). I'm just surprised that you weren't running the PS3 on 720p already - but I guess this was only your 2nd PS3 game and your TV's HDMI handshake indicated that it could handle 1080p (kind of).

[Obiwanshinobi]

Again, this TV (for PS3 games) doesn't really give me a choice. Photos taken in a daylit room, so the picture quality isn't representative of real-life experience; I'm posting these to illustrate how it handles screen proportions.

An 800x600 computer game, "Screen Format: Normal" - correct proportions, no scaling artifacts (I downscaled the pic myself so there are some here, obviously).



720p PS3 game, "Screen Format: Normal" - wrong proportions.



The same game, "Screen Format: Full" - correct proportions, scaling artifacts - bearable.



So there is that. Devoid of tools to estimate input delay objectively, best I can do is chill out and deal with the scaling.

[HydrogLox]

Found it.

720p PS3 game, "Screen Format: Normal" - wrong proportions.

My Sony KDL-50EX645 only offers "Normal" for 4:3 signals which 720p clearly isn't so you may want to check your settings on the PS3 again.

http://manuals.playstation.net/document ... utput.html
Settings > Display Settings > Video Output Settings

On step 7 ensure that both 1080p and 1080i are unchecked.
On step 8 ensure that 16:9 is selected (provided that is even offered as an option - usually only comes up for SD resolutions).

Alternately some weird mode may be enabled on your TV - do you have a model number?
That being said for 1080p/1080i/720p "Full" is the correct WIDE mode - however the presence of the "Normal" mode for 720p makes me wonder if something else is going on. For SD resolutions "Normal" is the correct WIDE mode, it's just not popular with Joe consumer who wants to see a widescreen rather than a pillarboxed picture.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Sony KDL-32R410B. I simply can't seem to do the step 8. After I choose resolutions (576p can't be unchecked),



it asks me to confirm the choice.



When I do confirm, next screen allows me to either exit or select the audio input.

.

Needles to say, nothing I found in the TV settings helped.

[HydrogLox]

The manual for the KDL-32R410B seems to be particularly unhelpful when it comes to "Changing wide mode" (page 10) as it doesn't seem to distinguish between 4:3 and 16:9 source material. Strangely "Normal" mode doesn't seem to be locked out for HD sources. Widescreen display modes explains the naming convention:

• Normal = 4:3 mode
• Full = 16:9 mode

So as you have already determined "Full" is the correct "wide mode" for 720p/1080p. As the panel is 1366x768 the TV may always be scaling even on a 720p signal. That could account for the "display artifacts" that you are seeing but those "artifacts" could just as easily originate from the game's graphics engine. If the TV is always scaling anyway you could re-enable 1080p if you choose - the PS3 will then decide which resolution is most appropriate. For example Ketsui will switch to 720p even when 1080p is enabled. This source seems to peg the display lag at 34ms. When playing PSN PSone or PS2 classics limiting the PS3 to the SD resolution originally supported by the game may cut back on the input lag on those emulated titles - i.e. leave all the scaling to the TV (your HDMI inputs seem to support interlaced signals which can be useful for classics that never supported a progressive signal).

[Obiwanshinobi]

By the "bearable" artifacts I mean that I can't see any, but I know they must be there because I don't believe in artifacts-free scaling. Playing SD console games on this TV would be an act of desperation (unless we're talking ports that effectively are not SD). I'm not the kind of person who hopes LCD will ever make CRT obsolete.
When all is said and done, PS3 games look only good on this TV either up- or downscaled, and that's a fact I must live with, hoping it doesn't make input delay any worse.

Strangely "Normal" mode doesn't seem to be locked out for HD sources.

Computer games output some pretty non-standard resolutions and I'm glad "Normal" lets them be as they are (case in point - I don't think UT2004 supports widescreen out of the box even though the original UT does, but the former's mod Alien Swarm does some trick enhancing horizontal resolution, that's a pretty neat compromise). Then bordered 640x480 looks big enough to me that is as good as I've ever hoped LCD to do.
At this point my only issue with this TV*) is that ridiculous 50 fps cap in v-synced PC games, but I've yet to try the splitter solution.

*) Or this old computer/graphics card.

[BazookaBen]

When all is said and done, PS3 games look only good on this TV either up- or downscaled, and that's a fact I must live with, hoping it doesn't make input delay any worse.

Looking at the manual, your TV has an HDMI "PC" input. You could try hooking up to that and enabling normal mode. In the diagram it looks like it enters what is sometimes known as "just scan", where it doesn't do any scaling. It windowboxes your image, but that shouldn't be a big deal since 720p is pretty close to 768p

[Obiwanshinobi]

Aye, might as well swap the plugs and see (it costs nothing).
So the only difference between two HDMI sockets is that one supports MHL. The "PC Adjustment" option in screen settings does the same as format button on remote when the source's PC and is not selectable when it's PS3. Essentially, two different format sets depending on source signal. So, no handsomely letterboxed 720p from PS3 for me, case closed. Oh well.