let's talk about saidaioujou

[Skykid]

I'd agree with you, but for two reasons:

1. The lag is nowhere near as bad as people are making out. I've spent a great many years playing on emulators with way more lag than SDOJ inherently has and had no problems at all.

2. The overflow bug is hard to do. Like Guwange counterstop difficult. I'd estimate there's probably at maximum only five people on this forum (and in the Western gaming community as a whole) who could do it, and only one of that five has actually done it. Calling a game bad because of a bug that in itself requires a great deal of execution to achieve is pretty silly in my opinion. In the Japanese community, yeah it's a big problem due to the higher percentage of skilled players who could do it, but around here, it's nothing a great majority of people should be concerned about.

Well perhaps my opinion was coloured by the recent STG meet in Shanghai - those guys were hitting that overflow bug on rotation for 48hrs straight like it was absolutely nothing, and when questioned they unanimously agreed the game would be great if it wasn't for the overflow bug! They felt, as a group who had pushed the game to its limits and was just clearing it to pass the time, that the overflow was the one aspect that really screwed it. Of course you need to be a player of conviction to hit it, but the fact it's there can't be ignored - it's at a disadvantage when people are looking for higher scores on a global scale.

I don't think hitting that overflow bug is as difficult as counterstopping Guwange though, are you sure?

1.5 is really the best of SDOJ I think, the balancing is just right. I don't know if the lag is a game breaking deal, but goddamn, it's prominent!

Is ver1.5 on the 360 disk?

Yep, 360 exclusive.

[Icarus]

E: Also no way is it as hard as counterstopping Guwange.

I don't think hitting that overflow bug is as difficult as counterstopping Guwange though, are you sure?

Well of course the difficulty isn't exactly the same, but it is comparable for many players here, considering:

1. You have to carry a max hyper to stage 5 somehow. Completely ignoring hypering in stages 1 to 4 seems to be the "easiest" way to do that, but then again, you have to no-miss to stage 5 to do that.
2. You need to perfectly execute all midboss quick kills and hyper recharges, obtaining at the very least 4+ hypers each time.
3. Perfectly chain the whole stage, and have at least 37,000 HIT on your chain by the final tank rush. 39k to 40k by the tank rush is preferable to trigger it earlier based on how the Get Point calculations are done.
4. Perfectly execute all major hyper recharges along the way.
5. Perfectly execute the most difficult recharge timing in the game - the double cancel before the final tank rush - and have a max hyper by the time you get to the tank rush itself. Having a max hyper here is critical - you can't overflow on anything less.

You can't really compare the Asian playerbase - who are likely to have a lot more active high-level players - to us here in the West, where we'd much rather bicker and complain about shit rather than spending that energy playing games to a reasonable level. So I still say that for most here, complaining about the overflow bug is pointless, because the amount of people who could reliably trigger it I could count on one hand.

The other thing is, overflow is off by default for XBLA Score Attack runs.

Also, I have to watch what I'm pressing now that I have mod buttons - keep accidentally editing rather than quoting. >_>

[monouchi]

To be able to hit the overflow bug or not, to me it doesnt feel so fun to just start at scoring in SDOJ when that bug exist.
Would be really cool if Cave released a fixed 1.5 or Black Label pcb, but I guess that is a small chance now.

[Blinge]

to us here in the West, where we'd much rather bicker and complain about shit rather than spending that energy playing games to a reasonable level.

Now I see why you're a mod

Also thanks for the info in this thread, guys. I'll pick up that port eventually.

[Bananamatic]

1. The lag is nowhere near as bad as people are making out. I've spent a great many years playing on emulators with way more lag than SDOJ inherently has and had no problems at all.

2. The overflow bug is hard to do. Like Guwange counterstop difficult. I'd estimate there's probably at maximum only five people on this forum (and in the Western gaming community as a whole) who could do it, and only one of that five has actually done it. Calling a game bad because of a bug that in itself requires a great deal of execution to achieve is pretty silly in my opinion. In the Japanese community, yeah it's a big problem due to the higher percentage of skilled players who could do it, but around here, it's nothing a great majority of people should be concerned about.

1. The lag is way more noticeable when slowdown kicks in and IIRC you were mostly playing 360 arrange which has WAY less slowdown in the first place (which is probably the reason why inserting type D into arcade mode generates so much of it). Try stage 5 boss on expert and see the honeycomb attack in the 2nd form which has serious slowdown - going through the blue bullets is a serious pain compared to doing the same in Futari for example as suddenly the input lag becomes pretty damn obvious

2. The overflow is definitely not that hard (or maybe it's actually easier on expert since that's all I played and also what I think Skykid saw in Shanghai)
The "basic" overflow on expert is just a survival run with hyper recharges along the way - you can even get it after dying on the 1st midboss and only triggering 2 more afterwards, if you want the WR tier scores you have to do crazy dodges in order to delay some cancels making it probably harder than the shot/laser one

I think like 5 people in the west triggered it counting all modes, practice mode and type D? Playing 1 stage well is way easier than playing all of them well

[Erppo]

I think like 5 people in the west triggered it counting all modes, practice mode and type D? Playing 1 stage well is way easier than playing all of them well

I've done it with D-EX, that's not hard at all. The run I have at the leaderboard now would be an overflow in the bugged version too.

[Bananamatic]

I've done it with D-EX, that's not hard at all. The run I have at the leaderboard now would be an overflow in the bugged version too.

I'm not actually sure if it makes considerably easier - the slowdown certainly helps a ton at the 2 difficult parts you have to do without a hyper plus D has a smaller hitbox, even smaller than A/B/C-EX, on the other hand the shot power might result in accidental kills

either way the overflow on expert isn't too far off from "survival without getting hit" unless you want to approach 3-4tril

[Icarus]

1. The lag is way more noticeable when slowdown kicks in and IIRC you were mostly playing 360 arrange which has WAY less slowdown in the first place (which is probably the reason why inserting type D into arcade mode generates so much of it). Try stage 5 boss on expert and see the honeycomb attack in the 2nd form which has serious slowdown - going through the blue bullets is a serious pain compared to doing the same in Futari for example as suddenly the input lag becomes pretty damn obvious

I've played enough of Arcade, ver1.5 and their associated Expert Modes to know about the slowdown, and the lag still doesn't seem like a problem to me.
People like making a big fuss over nothing, it seems.

2. The overflow is definitely not that hard (or maybe it's actually easier on expert since that's all I played and also what I think Skykid saw in Shanghai)

It is easier on Expert. The overflow bug is triggered by rolling the Get Point value past a certain amount (24mil+? Forgot the exact amount), and in AC Shot/Laser, you need to have about 37,000+ HITS and use a max hyper at the tank rush to get there - for every hyper less than max, add about 8k extra to the chain as a requirement, and lose about 15sec of overflow time; while in Expert, you can get your chain much higher and cancel/recharge much more efficiently, making it "easier" (word used loosely) to roll it over, and roll it over much earlier.

Also:



I'd wager that players with better timing and execution than I have can do much better than this 9.2-hyper-at-tank-rush split-second overflow, which I did in just one week of learning last year.
So if it's as easy as people say it is, then show me what you can do, people. :V

[Bananamatic]

It took me around a month to get it on Expert with type C for the first time, maybe it is harder after all? (or you were already familiar with the stage from 360 mode)
IIRC it's around 7.13m base chain value to get it with a lv10 (overflow happens at around 21.4m)

Not even sure if the chain value is worth looking at as picking up purple stars doesn't seem to increase the chain counter (while it increases the chain value a lot still) and picking up gold stars increases both of them a lot

also here's my best, it's not that hard to get the first 1tril or so but having to do the part before the tank rush under pressure with no hypers on expert is absolute hell (and worth another 1.2tril or so)


i can pretty much hit it at least once in 2 hours of gameplay now, usually it's just 1 mistake on one of the hard parts or the 2nd midboss giving me bad RNG on the opener

[Special World]

I think it's a great game, 4/5. Not my favorite Cave game but I do think it's probably in the top half. I'm not really good at noticing input lag, but something does feel really off about it when I play. So, input lag combined with a larger hitbox and fast bullets probably make the game a lot less enjoyable than it would be otherwise. I also don't really like how much the scoring seems (to me anyways) to rely around stocking hypers... I think it's much more interesting to use them as you get them, during opportune points. I don't really like any shooter mechanics (see:Cave's bombs) that rely on you hoarding resources instead of using them. Then again I haven't really delved into its scoring to the point of watching superplays or anything, so maybe I'm exaggerating that stockpiling aspect.

[Icarus]

It took me around a month to get it on Expert with type C for the first time, maybe it is harder after all? (or you were already familiar with the stage from 360 mode)

There's really no difference in stage layout between any of the game modes (AC, 1.5, 360), the only thing that changes is hyper timing for recharges. All I did was start my learning from the mid bosses (as the beginning is just straight survival up to that point), reworked how I timed my speedkills, hyper activations and recharges, and pieced together the rest of the stage through trial and error. The only thing that eluded me is the exact consistent timing for the double recharge to almost-max hyper at the end of the stage before the tank rush, and so far, I've only ever managed to get it once (and subsequently ruined that attempt by crashing into a bullet during the gatekeepers).

Otherwise, the route is usable, and only requires one fix to be consistent. And if anything, it's actually quite good fun and very challenging trying to trigger it.

Not even sure if the chain value is worth looking at as picking up purple stars doesn't seem to increase the chain counter (while it increases the chain value a lot still) and picking up gold stars increases both of them a lot

I noticed you don't go for all five midbosses when I watched your stream the other day. Is that a survival thing?

[Bananamatic]

I tried Shot/Laser for a bit and it's way too different even from Expert - I was at the point where I was dying more often on the easier modes due to the differences in some of the patterns, so I'm not exactly feeling like learning S/L as well (and I hate the bigger hitbox)

I noticed you don't go for all five midbosses when I watched your stream the other day. Is that a survival thing?

You need a level 10 for that, which requires going into the st4 boss with a lv3 hyper or so and then no missing it without hypers which is extremely hard to consistently pull off, and even then I tried the 5 midboss route in practice and it was still harder than going in with a lv7/8 and killing only 4 midbosses

Though with the 4 midboss route you hyper at the last big enemy before the 1st midboss which gives you around 500k extra chain value, you get a bigger recharge off the 2nd midboss and then you can afford to take your time and optimize the 3rd midboss cancels compared to the 5 midboss route where you have to speedkill everything, so it balances out a bit

Either way, in terms of importance on expert: not getting hit>not screwing up recharges>getting the full hyper off on the tank rush>everything else, so it's pretty much just an optimization not worth counting on with how hard the st4 boss is

[pokemon123]

yeah if i get this game i'm seriously considering playing just expert since i hear it as has a DOJ style hitbox.

Not a fan of big hitboxes so yep.

[Bananamatic]

or just play the 360 arrange on laser, smaller hitbox with arcade patterns

expert aint games

[DestroyTheCore]

1. The lag is way more noticeable when slowdown kicks in and IIRC you were mostly playing 360 arrange which has WAY less slowdown in the first place (which is probably the reason why inserting type D into arcade mode generates so much of it). Try stage 5 boss on expert and see the honeycomb attack in the 2nd form which has serious slowdown - going through the blue bullets is a serious pain compared to doing the same in Futari for example as suddenly the input lag becomes pretty damn obvious

I've played enough of Arcade, ver1.5 and their associated Expert Modes to know about the slowdown, and the lag still doesn't seem like a problem to me.
People like making a big fuss over nothing, it seems.

[Bananamatic]

i honestly don't think the input lag affects your gameplay until you get to the higher levels so while it's not an excuse to avoid playing the game or buying the port, you can't really say it doesn't affect anything until you start doing stuff like dodging the st3 boss final attack on expert where the few frames could seriously cost you a hit, not to even mention the advanced routes on st5 where you have to dodge tight stuff without the laser slowdown

[system11]

I actually wonder if the lag is worse for players like myself. Since I'm mostly playing on reaction instead of running a planned route, latency was pretty obnoxious. When I got the PCB I instantly on my first credit equalled my best port attempt and a few credits later got further than ever before.

[Bananamatic]

doubt it, it's just an awful game to play blind overall

[Squire Grooktook]

I've played enough of Arcade, ver1.5 and their associated Expert Modes to know about the slowdown, and the lag still doesn't seem like a problem to me.
People like making a big fuss over nothing, it seems.

It's just a part of my taste in games. "Feel" is very important to me, especially when it comes to fundamental things like level design, patterns, controls, etc. The controls in the port feel "off" to me, which is not a deal breaker and can certainly be worked around, but it seriously hurts the "feel" of the game for me. Which hurts the game overall pretty strongly for me.

[_rm_]

I actually wonder if the lag is worse for players like myself. Since I'm mostly playing on reaction instead of running a planned route, latency was pretty obnoxious. When I got the PCB I instantly on my first credit equalled my best port attempt and a few credits later got further than ever before.

I've been reading the thread and this is exactlly my thought. Altough i don't own the PCB, only played it a couple of times...

[Skykid]

2. The overflow is definitely not that hard (or maybe it's actually easier on expert since that's all I played and also what I think Skykid saw in Shanghai)

Yes, only Expert. Nobody attempted anything else except myself and a few other newbies to the game. If the overflow is easier to trigger on EX then that's definitely a contributing factor as to why it was being achieved without exception.

That also begs the argument of whether or not it's worth an expert player bothering with the other difficulty levels. In the end I could understand the player's reservations about the overflow bug being a thing.

[x91]

I'll have to say it again, this is a great game already, and having its overflow bug patched would make it perfect.

Most of you are basically concerned about how difficult to trigger the overflow, other than paying attention to the scoring of stage 1~4 - they are almost forgotten.

Before SDOJ, you have to score well on EVERY stage to ensure a new PB, now you only have to prepare for stage 5.

Scoring in a shmup shouldn't be scoring in one single stage. It has to be the game in a whole.

[Bananamatic]

It wouldn't change much - stage 5 without the overflow is already worth too much and getting the rank up on any other stages (only stage 3, really) would make stage 5 worth less

I guess going for a low miss hibachi clear would be the second biggest contribution to the score, anything else would be a slight optimization

[x91]

It wouldn't change much - stage 5 without the overflow is already worth too much and getting the rank up on any other stages (only stage 3, really) would make stage 5 worth less

I guess going for a low miss hibachi clear would be the second biggest contribution to the score, anything else would be a slight optimization

Yes there lies the systematic problem of this game.

Linking bullet cancel to hyper stock makes score distribution between stages of SDOJ unbalanced and terrible. But if the overflow gets patched, at least players would think about planning hypers in stage 3 & 4. There will be different strategies, much better than what the game looks like now.

[Erppo]

I don't think hypering stage 4 would be worth it, at least in normal. The lower rank you can start 5 with, the better and you can't really get much score out of 4. The optimal route would probably be using a lv10 in stage 3 and then bombing the rank back to 0 and doing stage 4 without any hypering. Suicides for rank would probably never be worth it since the extra life bonus is so big regularly.

The other option is lv10 in both 3 and 4 and then doing stage 5 with a bit higher starting rank. I feel that this is the worse option though.

[Jack Burton]

I actually wonder if the lag is worse for players like myself. Since I'm mostly playing on reaction instead of running a planned route, latency was pretty obnoxious. When I got the PCB I instantly on my first credit equalled my best port attempt and a few credits later got further than ever before.

I'll have to pay more attention the next time I play it. Maybe I don't notice the lag as much because I play xbox 360 mode. Does the type of video output have an effect? I run mine into a blast city via vga cable in 640x480.

Plus, I don't think I've ever gotten to stage 5.

[iconoclast]

Score Attack on the 360 version has the overflow turned off, so you can just play that if you want to optimize every stage. I have (had?) the top score on XBL with B-L at 28 billion or so. I don't remember exactly what I did any more, but I know I did some scoring in the first 4 stages. Stage 5 would have been a perfect overflow (= 7.1XX GP before using 10 hypers at the final section) if it were normal play.

The XBL leaderboards were fairly barren last time I played (especially for the Expert ships). I think anyone who's serious about the game just plays offline because they want the overflow. There's really no point in wasting a perfectly good run (like I did) to put a score up on XBL when nobody else is playing that way.

Version 1.5 fixes a lot of the design faults of the original, but again, SSERESS is the only person who put serious effort into it. Obviously it would have been a lot more popular if Cave released it in the arcade, but there's no way their ancient hardware could handle that game. Oh well.

[thetricker24]

for me it's the best CAVE game ever made

(second is daioujou, third Ketsui)

[Captain]

Let's talk about saidaioujou

Let's not.

[cave hermit]

So has it ever been verified if Inbachi has been legitimately beaten by anybody on the pcb or port?

Also regarding the input lag on the port, is it so bad that it makes the port unplayable at high level play, or is it more like a significant nuisance that just makes things more difficult than they should be?


Honestly I haven't gotten very far in the game, so I can't really form a legitimate opinion about it (thus I'm not voting on the poll), but from what I have played I would probably agree with 4/5.
It's pretty good, but it doesn't instantly strike me as absolutely amazing.

I do think that the difficulty of the initial stages is too high (the first boss has some pretty tough patterns in my opinion), but then again I still don't quite understand how to practice shmups, and I don't see myself as very good at shmups to begin with.