WiiU and 3DS - The BIG NES Virtual Console Frustration

[jay_are]

Has anyone bombarded Nintendo with emails or whatever, asking them to fix NES VC?
It has all these problems that should have been addressed long ago:

1. Input lag. (WiiU, 3DS)
2. Blurry. (WiiU, 3DS)
3. Dark. (WiiU, 3DS)
4. Button layout is not exchangeable. (3DS)

Not changing button layout means that in Super Mario Bros., B is run and A is jump, on that diamond shape-like layout of buttons this is BAD. X button is also run, but it's not comfy playing with A and X. It should be Y and B, like on SNES.

As for dark, it doesn't matter much on 3DS because the screen can set bright enough, but on WiiU that's a lot more annoying.


The excuse is that the screen is stretched to match 4:3 aspect ratio. That's all good and nice, but why isn't there an option?
Has anyone ever played Mighty Gunvolt? That game is NES styled, and has the option to do 1:1 and 4:3. And it's not darkened. THAT'S how NES should be. Plus the fact that Mighty Gunvolt has no lag, but that's because it's not emulated.
Some people will argue that "Nintendo doesn't want to give you options so that you have to play only the way they made it by default."
But if that was true, the GameBoy VC wouldn't have 2 selectable color palettes or different screen sizes, including a 1:1 with a screen border even.

Some will even argue that the blurriness is to make it look more like the original NES because that console didn't look as sharp as an emulator on a modern monitor would. I think that's putrid BS, because any NES on my HDTV directly through composite or RF cables still looks sharper, nicer and brighter AND surprisingly has less input lag than the NES VC of the Wii U.

This is what MegaMan (NES) looks on the Wii U VC.



This is unacceptable. I can barely even see it on my computer monitor from how dark it is.

[BrianC]

I'm no expert on lag, but I compared to the actual game and input lag seemed minimal. I can still jump off the stairs in the right spot to hit the flagpole consistently in SMB and SMB2J. I do agree on the lack of screen options, but I tried very hard to find more info on input lag with nothing to prove that a major amount is there. I also switched between MM2 and MM3 on cart and 3DS VC when playing and was doing consistently well between them. Input for MM4 on 3DS also seemed to be much better compared to the MMAC version on Wii.

Are you sure the darkness is the fault of the emulation? TV settings vary and are quite often set darker than the left screen shot. Definitely not a fan of the filter on Wii U, though.

Personally, I have more issue with the GBC emulation. Sound is off in some games and no support for multiplayer (which the NES emulation has).

[jay_are]

Input lag is bad enough that it's noticeable.
Try SNES VC on WiiU, and see how much more awesome it is.
No lag, no blurryness, no darkness. That's all I want. I will NEVER complain about SNES VC on the WiiU.
Now I demand that same thing but for NES. I don't believe NES is harder to emulate.
It's not the TV settings, it's not display lag, it's just the NES VC on the Wii U, that's the only thing giving me problems.
Shovel Knight on the Wii U for example responds instantly to my button inputs too, and it looks bright and sharp as a game can be. Of course, this is not an emulated game, so it's just a good test to make sure my TV and settings are all correct.

[BrianC]

Well, I didn't notice it on 3DS. I did hear some games on Wii VC (including some that have minimal lag on the original Wii VC) definitely have it, though. I also heard Super Mario World SNES has lag on Wii U VC. I also heard it may vary by game with Wii U VC. I didn't notice it with SMB2J or Luigi Bros (offically hacked Mario Bros) and I had a hard time telling with Ufouria. At first, Ufouria seemed to have less lag for the Wii version. Later, the lag seemed to vary between the pad and TV on Wii U. Then, it didn't seem to have lag and I thought was just the display playing tricks on me. Display was darker for the WiiU version, though.

I do have Earthbound and Wild Guns and they seemed fine to me, though lag matters very little for the former. Graphics are still filtered with no options.

I definitely noticed lag in NES remix for SMB, but that was later fixed. I do like M2's emulations better. More graphic settings and options available, plus extra features for their 3D remakes on 3DS. M2 also did the GG emulation on 3DS, which seems solid. I actually prefer playing on 3DS over Game Gear (not that I don't like the GG, but it's bulky and has poor battery life).

[jay_are]

To be fair, on 3DS it seems a bit better compared to WiiU, but it's there. If at least the WiiU would be like the 3DS, it would be acceptable. Not great, just acceptable. But the WiiU is much more powerful isn't it? So why would it be worse?

[BrianC]

To be fair, on 3DS it seems a bit better compared to WiiU, but it's there. If at least the WiiU would be like the 3DS, it would be acceptable. Not great, just acceptable. But the WiiU is much more powerful isn't it? So why would it be worse?

probably due to the pad with no option to just play on the TV, like with Wii games. Sounds like it's a case by case basis with WiiU games, from what I read elsewhere, but I heard Punch Out has it the worst.

[jay_are]

probably due to the pad with no option to just play on the TV

No, because like I said, Shovel Knight plays perfectly. 0% lag on the GamePad or TV. Contrary to popular belief, there is not one bit of lag added by the gamepad itself. What you see in the GamePad is happening realtime on the TV.
At least that's my GamePad. I also use the Wiimote with Classic controller, and it's the same response as the gamepad.

but I heard Punch Out has it the worst

It's not that Punch Out has more lag than other games, the lag is exactly the same on all NES VC games for WiiU.
The difference is that in Punch Out, you need to react really fast. Especially on the last guy you fight (Mr. Dream or Mike Tyson in the first edition).
Mr. Dream would give you almost NO TIME for reaction.
Using an emulator on PC gives me less lag than the WiiU's NES VC... some people claim they can fail endlessly to Mr. Dream in the WiiU NES VC, but beat him right away when they switch back to the NES. I can beat him on that, as well as on PC emulators, while on WiiU NES VC, I suck even at Super Mario Bros.

Display was darker for the WiiU version, though.

Sadly, NES on Wii is ALSO darkened, what the heck?
But seems a bit sharper. A BIT. And is less laggy too.
So there's just NO excuse, WiiU NES VC should be better than Wii's NES VC, not worse.

[BrianC]

Shovel Knight is not emulation, though. I also have to check, but I think it only has gameplay on one screen at a time? Anyway, I wish more of these topics would show a comparison. I'm tired of hearing "Input lag is bad enough that it's noticeable", as if something is wrong if you don't notice it.

From what I remember, Ufouria definitely looked brighter in Wii mode to me.

edit: Doh. I was wrong. Ufouria is actually brighter in WiiU mode. Response on TV matched up with gamepad. I think what threw me off is how this is basically a partially optimized PAL game running in 60Hz mode. The PAL version played slower than the JP version, but adjusted the music to the correct speed. This version plays like a PAL version on US hardware. Correct gameplay speed, but sped up music.

[jay_are]

Shovel Knight is not emulation, though

Of course, this is not an emulated game, and that's what makes it a perfect test to make sure my TV and settings are all correct and that the gamepad is not adding any lag at all.

gameplay on one screen at a time?

No, it can be both at the same time after you press a button on the gamepad. (or touch screen)

I'm tired of hearing "Input lag is bad enough that it's noticeable"

Aw, I'm very sorry.
Sadly, there is something wrong when people don't notice these things, not with the people that don't notice it themselves, BUT with the developers. Why? Because this makes developers get careless with these things. They're taking advantage of those gamers that aren't into extreme action games that require 100% accuracy, because hey, not every gamer is like that.
But developers shouldn't take advantage of that fact. There should be 1 to 16 ms of lag the most, and the WiiU NES VC probably has around 40 ms of lag.
1 second has 60 frames.
Each of those frames takes about 16 ms of on-screen time.
If I program a game to have 2 or 3 frames of input lag, it feels just like the WiiU NES VC, therefore i'm predicting that the lag is in around 40 ms. I would record a video in slow motion, but I don't have the equipment to make it.

Some casual gamers will claim that anything under 40 ms is not noticeable, but there are a lot of threads out there with people complaining about the same issue in the WiiU NES VC. They just abandon the VC completely. I don't want to do that. I contacted Nintendo several times in hopes they'd listen, as some other fans have complained.
I wish everyone complained until something was done about it.

Edit:
So WiiU = brighter?
I'll have to confirm this myself later with a capture device.

[BrianC]

At least they went witth M2 for the GBA VC, though it's frustrating that the 3DS GBA games are still ambassadors only.

[jay_are]

it's frustrating that the 3DS GBA games are still ambassadors only.

OMG Nintendo, you're more full of issues than I remembered!

http://s5.postimg.org/7zkz7uqpz/Wii_Wii_U_NES_VC.jpg

Did the capture comparison.
The result is:
Color is exactly the same, Wii or WiiU NES VC. (Wii mode is inside the WiiU if that says anything)
WiiU is slightly more blurry, but Wii doesn't look that much sharper either, it looks like it was just as blurry as WiiU, and someone applied a sharpen filter AFTER it was already blurred. UGH.

[BrianC]

I'm not a fan of input lag, but my beef with the earlier comment is that noticing input lag isn't as cut and dry as you make it sound. I mentioned specifics on games where I didn't notice lag, and get "there's too much lag" in reply. I know one time on a forum I mentioned that SSF2 in Capcom Classics Collection has lag, which was later proven to have lag, and people who weren't casual gamers were skeptical. One thing I know for sure from multiple posts is that some Wii U emulations do have lag, and it's not limited to NES. Multiple sources suggest that the N64 emulation for SM64 on WiiU also has lag.

I don't think bombarding Nintendo with emails would help. It seems feedback like that fell on deaf ears. The club nintendo surveys didn't seem to be much help.

[jay_are]

You're not going to believe this!
I bought an A/V cable for the WiiU (I use HDMI)
and lo and behold, THERE'S A DIFFERENCE!

There is NO lag through the A/V port. This is weird...
There is NO lag on any game through HDMI or on GamePad, except NES.
But through the A/V, there is no lag on anything including NES.
I've recorded a video of my TV vs the WiiU GamePad. (Note: it's NOT gamepad lag.)
Here are some screenshots from the video.





This would be a temporary fix for me... but WHY if the NES is already good with A/V cables, why not with HDMI???
That should be an even easier fix!
As a note, it's perfect with that cable, I feel 0 lag.

This is why I die in Super Mario. I often have to jump on the very last frame. But look at that. On the gamepad, the bad mushroom is STILL a few frames away from me, so I have plenty of time to jump. But alas, I'm already dead by the time I see that.

[mvsfan]

have you tried a component cable? there shouldnt be any lag there either.

[BrianC]

I use component and 720p. On the HD TV, I get lag on games using the standard A/V cables, but not with component. It seems my TV likes S-Video better than standard composite, as well.

[KennyMan666]

The big frustration over here in PAL-land is how Nintendo insists on putting up the 50hz versions of certain games, not even including the option to get a 60hz version, on a system that literally can't output 50hz. So it's playing them in 60hz, which means those extra frames have to come from somewhere which screws with the game. Would've bought Paper Mario and A Link to the Past on the U VC if they were the 60hz versions.

Fucking Nintendo, why do you have to be so good at making fun and innovative games and so terrible at everything else?

[jay_are]

have you tried a component cable? there shouldnt be any lag there either.

Nope, i've only used HDMI until today, but yeah, it would make sense that component doesn't lag.

I use component and 720p. On the HD TV, I get lag on games using the standard A/V cables, but not with component. It seems my TV likes S-Video better than standard composite, as well.

Hey, no wonder some people weren't complaining about lag huh?
This must be why a lot of people think i'm too picky. Hint: I'm not.

This doesn't make ANY sense though!! Why would there be 2 versions of the game? 1 laggy for HDMI and 1 non laggy for non-HDMI?
HDMI is not causing any lag itself, it's the WiiU that is programmed on purpose to have lag on NES if you use HDMI, god knows why.

Fucking Nintendo, why do you have to be so good at making fun and innovative games and so terrible at everything else?

Looooooool.
They're awkward with backwards compatibility stuff. And they dont like giving anyone many options.
I'm surprised WiiU VC gives options for controller buttons.

So wait... you live in PAL-land, and you have a PAL WiiU, which outputs 50hz?
Even on HDMI? Cause supposedly, HD doesn't know PAL or NTSC standards.
Unless you're using A/V cables then. So your TV is PAL, but the games run at 60hz? How does that even look?
Cause when you run a PAL signal on a NTSC TV, it will be totally ruined and unusable.

[KennyMan666]

So wait... you live in PAL-land, and you have a PAL WiiU, which outputs 50hz?
Even on HDMI? Cause supposedly, HD doesn't know PAL or NTSC standards.
Unless you're using A/V cables then. So your TV is PAL, but the games run at 60hz? How does that even look?
Cause when you run a PAL signal on a NTSC TV, it will be totally ruined and unusable.

No, no, it's 60hz. Wii U can't do 50hz, which is why 50hz VC games get fucked, since they get forced to run in 60hz. And is there even such a thing as PAL/NTSC HDTVs?

[jay_are]

Ah sorry I read that wrong.
I get it now, so the Virtual Console games in PAL territories are their original PAL versions?
This can get complicated!
Back in the days of the NES, game music had to be modified to be faster, so that when played on 50hz systems, they would sound normal. So MegaMan I think got that modification in the music. But if you play a 50hz game on 60hz, the music and framerate will get fucked too :O
Is that true for music and framerate? Or just framerate?