Samsung F4500 plasma bargain for 480p sources

[andykara2003]

I still have it, though I rarely use it these days as I have no use for it.

Give us a shout if you want to sell it

[kamiboy]

Well, I wouldn't mind passing in on to a new loving owner since it is not seeing much use here. Shipping arrangements would be a problem though, this thing is bulky and weighs accordingly.

[Josh128]

Well, I don't see any practical applications in terms of gaming or movie watching for that (if I understand it correctly).

Just for the most crisp output for text in PC usage/web browsing. Why would you want to use the XGA mode for movie watching? It would look no better or worse than any other mode, as movies would have to be scaled in that mode as well.

[andykara2003]

Well, I wouldn't mind passing in on to a new loving owner since it is not seeing much use here. Shipping arrangements would be a problem though, this thing is bulky and weighs accordingly.

No problem, I use a great little company who pack up my CRTs carefully for me. I'm definitely keen - I'll send you a PM...

[Xan]

Well, I don't see any practical applications in terms of gaming or movie watching for that (if I understand it correctly).

Just for the most crisp output for text in PC usage/web browsing. Why would you want to use the XGA mode for movie watching? It would look no better or worse than any other mode, as movies would have to be scaled in that mode as well.

Mainly gaming, I think native XGA with lots of anti-aliasing could look better than 720p. As for videos, I think 1080p videos look better with 720p output from the GPU than 1080p, I feel like the scaler just handles those smaller pixel counts better. Of course for Blu-rays it's 1080p24 anyway so the point is moot there, was just talking about my experiences with Youtube stuff.

[Josh128]

Just picked up one of the Audio Authority VGA>Component boxes from Ebay. Will post pics of the DC on 4500 once I get it set up. Any tricks to getting a good output from DC with these??

http://www.ebay.com/itm/191492600491

[Josh128]

Andys talk about the performance vs. CRT got me to second guessing myself about the sets performance, so I set up some shots of 480p Dolphin FZero GX on my Viewsonic 19" CRT 4:3 vs the Samsung PN51F4500AFXZA plasma. In the picture sets, the first is CRT, second plasma-- in the first set of comparison shots, I used a sharpness of 25 on the plasma. The second comparison and last few were taken at a different time and had a default sharpness 50, I believe. While the CRT does hold an edge in sharpness, as its native and effectively perfectly sharp, I have to say I actually prefer the plasma-- the incredible size, contrast, and color more than make up for the slight deficit in sharpness. Say what you will, but for such a large flat panel, I think this is a pretty impressive showing.

For the full size shots, go to http://imgur.com/a/89Vhz and select original, then right click on the picture you want to see an select "View Image" from the Windows popup box.

CRT

Plasma


CRT

Plasma


Plasma Various

[andykara2003]

Very nice image on the Plasma and it does seem to hold up well vs the CRT - although if you want to directly relate it to my comparison, again, you'd have to compare it against the NEC specifically. Aside from the BVM, The NEC is quite a bit better than my other CRTs. It's generally seen as a 'holy grail' monitor in the retro gaming world & was regarded as one of the best presentation monitors of it's time (& cost over $3,000) - so in this instance, it might have just been an unusual case & perhaps not directly comparable to the Viewsonic.

The sets both have great contrast & vibrancy but I can say that, to me, the colours are nicer on the NEC - more natural. You'd really have to see it in person.

In my case, it's like comparing apples & oranges really. The NEC is great for the incredibly punchy, sharp & vibrant 4:3 image and the Samsung is great for when you want to kick back in front of nice big widescreen - both have their place.

I think you're right to be 100% satisfied with the Samsung, it's a great all-rounder. It's perhaps unfair to compare it to the best 15Khz CRTs for 240p and the best 31Khz CRTs for 480p - but for an all in one solution for 240p right up to 1080p it's a great set.

[Josh128]

Youre right, a big part of my enthusiasm about the set is its all around performance. I probably could have tuned the color and contrast of the CRT to look a bit better as well-- I had just put in a new video card to be able to run the emulator and while I had it nicely tuned in for the integrated graphics I was running, it looks like it can stand to be fine tuned again with the newer card. Its hard to get a good focused shot on it, especially close up. Its definitelyl razor sharp though.

But yeah, a 19" is going to have tough go against a 51" (or a ~36" in 4:3 mode). I do wish I still had my Hitachi Ultravision 36" to compare to.

[kel]

I know that this set handles 240p well compared to most if not all other sets but IMHO it really benefits with a good line doubler like the XRGB-3 connected to it.

Using the XRGB-3 with a sharpness setting of 25 on the set looks really good. comparing it to the sets native 240p upscaling the 4500 looks a bit blurry although still quite good. I have only tried it with the SNES upto now though so I'm not sure if other consoles would also benefit.

[Josh128]

I know that this set handles 240p well compared to most if not all other sets but IMHO it really benefits with a good line doubler like the XRGB-3 connected to it.

Using the XRGB-3 with a sharpness setting of 25 on the set looks really good. comparing it to the sets native 240p upscaling the 4500 looks a bit blurry although still quite good. I have only tried it with the SNES upto now though so I'm not sure if other consoles would also benefit.

Just like when running an emulator with 240p games at 480p or 1024x768, they will be a bit sharper than the native 240p mode. Post some pictures if you can, I'd like to see them.

BTW, have you experimented with trying to get scanlines on the set from your XRGB? Have you seen what they look like with the way the Kega Fusion emulator handles them? I'd be curious to hear anything you can say about this. It really needs to display 720 vertical pixels in a 768p frame resolution to get the scanlines to appear properly. Fudoh has said he will spend some time with the Mini to see if he can get any kind of settings to work, but hes skeptical that the Mini can scale the image in that sort of manner.

When you have time, if you would, try to play around with scanlines on the XRGB3 and let us know the results, take some pictures if you can.

[kel]

I tried to get some pictures but my camera just wasn't up to it and then the battery ran out. I'll try again when the battery is charged but I'm not sure if I will get any better results. Other than that I will have to try to borrow a decent camera but that will take time.

I have tried scanlines with the XRGB-3 on this set. As expected they are uneven but with low strength scanlines, say 175-upwards from a distance of about 6-8 feet the unevenness is not really noticeable except for on a white background. Even so I probably still wouldn't use them though as I am aware that they are uneven and though I would have to look closely to notice, it would bug me.

[Josh128]

Just got my AA 9A60 transcoder working, DC looks FABULOUS through it, far better than with 480i RGBs. The sharpness and clarity are stunning and easily rival the GC and even PC 480p HDMI. Colors look perfect, no issues to speak of. The DC looks far more impressive on the plasma than my 19" Viewsonic CRT monitor. Heres a few shots of the DC-- note they are not perfect as you cant pause these games without a HUD or darkening of the screen, so the characters may appear a bit blurred compared to what they look like in person. Just fantastic looking in 480p on the 51F4500....

For larger sizes check here > http://imgur.com/a/LLcZ4 For the full 3MP, right click on a picture in the link then hit "View Image", then left click when you see the magnifying glass.

[Josh128]

More DC-- I still cant get over how sharp the DC output is over the AA converter. Seems sharper than any other system Ive tried. The pics just dont do justice to how it looks, but heres more...

For full 3MP, go to-- http://imgur.com/a/qmdxP right click and "view image".

[ikaruga007]

The DC got it so right with its video output, it really did deserve a better fate. Quality pics Josh.

[Josh128]

My son just got SSIV (on the 4 game Capcom disc), and we've been playing it on the BFXZA model. Quite possibly the most incredible images Ive seen on the set thus far-- just a ridiculously good looking game. The plasma handles the fast action superbly. The very last pic of Sagat came out great and shows the pixel structure very clearly. The X360 is set to 720p /RGB / Expanded, the F4500 is set to HDMI Black Level = Normal.

For full 3MP pictures, go to the following link: http://imgur.com/a/aT6lK

[FinalBaton]

EDIT : I have seen it in action since then, so no need to post a video for it anymore

Josh128, could you upload a video of the pn43f4500 with a 240p source? I have this set and I recently bought RGB hook ups for it. However I have an RGB to HDMI converter. I'm curious to see a RGB to Component signal in action though.

That would be hugely appreciated!
Thanks in advance

[StaticFlood]

Hi. I wanted to thank Josh128 and 22point8 for posting all those pics of the F4500 in action.
I own this set and I'm happy to see images of it handling 240p through component!

[Josh128]

@Final -I'll have to see what I can do about the video-- I only have a 480i camera so that might not show you what you want to see...

What exactly are you looking for in the video-- motion, lag, or overall image quality? *** I just saw your edit--nevermind then!

@Static- Youre welcome! I still stand by this set 100% for 480p sources, its awesome. A 1080p set will give you a totally different look with 480p-- an "unnatural" look in my opinion, one that I just dont like.

[Josh128]

I recently got to see how my 27" 2006 model Sony Trinitron Wega performed with several retro consoles. It looks very nice with deep scanlines and very dark blacks. The thing that surprised me was how similar a picture it produced compared to my 51" Samsung plasma. The colors,blacks, and general luminance looked very similar, so I decided to compare a few like shots.

Turns out that the Samsung has an almost identical horizontal pixel count to the Sony when the Samsung is displaying 4:3 content in 4:3 mode. Counting the horizontal pixels on the top of Arthurs gold helmet shows 11-12 distinct screen/panel pixels on each one. Hmmm.

Anyways, here are the pictures for review. Note that the Samsung is using the Kega Fusion emulator with perfect vertical scaling.

http://imgur.com/a/Wzlah/rearrange

[lev11]

Josh128, do you think the wide zoom mode introduces lag?
It does great things with the aspect ratio and displayed size when using gameboy player, and I've not noticed and scaling problems so far either.

[Josh128]

Josh128, do you think the wide zoom mode introduces lag?
It does great things with the aspect ratio and displayed size when using gameboy player, and I've not noticed and scaling problems so far either.

I personally havent noticed any additional lag with it. I could do a photo test using a PC outputting 480p and switch between modes to check. I'll let you know. I doubt it does though.

[FinalBaton]

Josh128,
what do you use to send your consoles' signal to the f4500 in the pics above? a csy-2100 clone or a XRGB-mini?

Also : I'm surprised that the emulated scan lines show up properly!
I thought that scanlines didn't line up correctly on a 1024 x 768 panel?

[Josh128]

Josh128,
what do you use to send your consoles' signal to the f4500 in the pics above? a csy-2100 clone or a XRGB-mini?

In the F4500 pics with scanlines, Im using the Kega Fusion emulator via HDMI. For the Trinitron Wega, Im using a csy-2100 clone.

Also : I'm surprised that the emulated scan lines show up properly!
I thought that scanlines didn't line up correctly on a 1024 x 768 panel?

You are correct, for most sources they dont. Not because its not technically possible, but because (almost) no one has produced scalers or emulators with the proper configuration options needed to do it. I do find it a bit strange that its so easy to do it on 1080p and not 768p, because 1080p is not an even multiple of 240 either. I would think it *should* be easily achievable with a firmware update on the XRGB's should Micomsoft choose to do it, but its highly unlikely they ever will at this point.

The Kega Fusion emulator is able to display 720 active lines out of the 768 in full screen mode, making perfect scanlines possible on 240p content. Its the only emulator Ive found that can do this-- others can do it in windowed modes only.

I asked Fudoh to see if he could get the Framemeister to produce such an output (720 active out of 768) and he said he would try, but I havent heard back from him. I can only assume the device is not capable of it.

[FinalBaton]

Josh128,
what do you use to send your consoles' signal to the f4500 in the pics above? a csy-2100 clone or a XRGB-mini?

In the F4500 pics with scanlines, Im using the Kega Fusion emulator via HDMI. For the Trinitron Wega, Im using a csy-2100 clone.

Also : I'm surprised that the emulated scan lines show up properly!
I thought that scanlines didn't line up correctly on a 1024 x 768 panel?

You are correct, for most sources they dont. Not because its not technically possible, but because (almost) no one has produced scalers or emulators with the proper configuration options needed to do it. I do find it a bit strange that its so easy to do it on 1080p and not 768p, because 1080p is not an even multiple of 240 either. I would think it *should* be easily achievable with a firmware update on the XRGB's should Micomsoft choose to do it, but its highly unlikely they ever will at this point.

The Kega Fusion emulator is able to display 720 active lines out of the 768 in full screen mode, making perfect scanlines possible on 240p content. Its the only emulator Ive found that can do this-- others can do it in windowed modes only.

I asked Fudoh to see if he could get the Framemeister to produce such an output (720 active out of 768) and he said he would try, but I havent heard back from him. I can only assume the device is not capable of it.

Cool. Can't wait till he answers you.
I too remember seeing somewhere that a firmware update that would allow scanlines to display properly in 720p, might be in the works. Hopefully Micomsoft will get this done.
Ideally I would like to get scanlines via a csy-2100 -­­> scanline generator -> pn43f4500,
but I don't think this is possible :/

I wonder if using a XRGB-3 in B1 mode and sending it to the f4500 (1024 x 768) will show scanlines properly?

[Fudoh]

I asked Fudoh to see if he could get the Framemeister to produce such an output (720 active out of 768) and he said he would try, but I havent heard back from him. I can only assume the device is not capable of it.

you do do that manually. User FBX dedicated a whole website to just this.

[Josh128]

I asked Fudoh to see if he could get the Framemeister to produce such an output (720 active out of 768) and he said he would try, but I havent heard back from him. I can only assume the device is not capable of it.

you do do that manually. User FBX dedicated a whole website to just this.

Unfortunately I dont own a Mini, so his website, good as it may be, really cant help me unless someone has confirmed it already on there. I'll check it out. It would be cool if it could be done, but Im not shelling out ~$400 for one only to find out it cant be done. The only way to know is to bother a chap like you who has a 768p set and Mini. Did you get a chance to play around with it?

[Fudoh]

Did you get a chance to play around with it?

no, sorry. The F4500 hasn't seen any usage in 2015 (yet).

[FinalBaton]

Josh, would you mind sharing your settings for the Sony Wega? Looks like you've got it well calibrated.

[FinalBaton]

Thought I would write a short thing about my impressions on this set's handling of 240p games, since I own it and played with it a bit. My set up is : RGB from 240p consoles, into a CSY-2100 clone, into the TV's component input.

I'm probably not going to reveal anything new about the set here. Fudoh and others have already given a detailed and valuable outlook on it. But I'm gonna do this for fun anyway.
Also, I don't have the tools to analyse input lag and color rendering, so take what I'll say about those as opinion and not as fact.





A short introduction about why I bought this set :
I bought it prior to reading about it here. It is in the living room and I watch hockey and movies and cable on it (my Sony CRT is in my "office" room). I have a soft spot for the look of plasma's image, and as an avid hockey fan, I love the fast handling of motion on these displays. Didn't know a thing about how it handles 15 khz and 31 khz signals.



So, I was real happy to realize that 240p is recognized as such. And I think it looks quite good.
It's pretty neat that you can get a good image without any upscaler, just by plugging straight into the TV.
As others have said, sharp pixel lovers need not apply. This is a soft image but it's quite pleasing as far as 240p content without scanlines go.

Background doesn't blur when moving, it stays exactly the same. Another thing that's appreciated .
This is not something that those cheap SCART to HDMI scalers can pull off.

Color rendering is very good I think. Everything looks as it should, only thing I spotted is a sliiiiiight greenish tint in those very light colors that are close to pure white. but changing the setting in "Espace Couleur" from Native to Auto got rid of most of it. Maybe the tint was induced by my csy-2100 clone thought?

As for input lag, here's how it affects my ability to play at my max potential on the following games (in ascending order of twitchiness) :
-Castlevania plays fine
-Megaman : it impedes my play a little bit, but still manageable I guess
-Ninja Gaiden : impossible for me to do a great playthrough of this game with this set (and I can clear the game in 1 continue on my CRT).
I believe others have tested the lag with Artemio's 240p suite and it clocked at 37ms or so? If I remember right.
Overall it's manageable, for the most part.

It's a shame that this TV won't handle emulated scanlines, because if it did I would use it quite a bit and would invest in an XRGB-3 to use with it. but alas is does not (1024 x 768 panel so I assume it doesn't). I personnaly need scanlines on 240p games.
My PN43f4500's usage for gaming is gonna be as a secondary display, for playing when I have people over. The rest of the time I'll be playing on my CRT.

But I'm still happy to have picked it up. It has some stuff going for it.
I might hunt down a used Panasonic 1080p plasma at some point (some models have a reported 16ms of input lag, that's interesting if true). This will allow me to put scanlines on top of the image and reduce input lag a bit over the f4500.

This Samsung remains a great and economical solution for a retro gaming flat panel if you :
-don't need scanlines
-aren't sensible to some mild input lag
-want to spend south of $100 in converters/upscalers (you just need a csy-2100 clone, this should get you at $80 or so) and still want a nice picture. (I need to reiterate that the csy-2100 used with this TV is largely superior than using a cheap SCART to HDMI scaler, so go the csy-2100 route).