Fighting Game Hype Thread

[Cagar]

Momochi vs. Daigo was probably the highest level SF4 that I've ever seen.

[Squire Grooktook]

So you enjoy getting Ochio thrown to death? Or losing because you got caught in an inescapable guard crush?

Cherry-picking extreme examples without context isn't an argument. But even in those examples, the losing player has already made multiple severe errors in order to wind up in such a dire situation. Contrast with "make a single minor error and lose 40%+ health," which is a very common situation in airdash fighters like Guilty Gear.

Universal defensive ability reduces depth and turns the round into just a long series of guessing games; to paraphrase Viscant's rant of legend, what should be an involved war for invisible resources is dumbed-down to the point of "I thought you were going to do this, but you did that instead, and I was surprised."

I agree with the first paragraph. "get wrecked in the corner" situations are usually the result of a series of bad decisions and failures to control the match (let your opponent get too much meter, let yourself get pushed into the corner, get hit in the corner, etc.) and thus don't strike me as particularly questionable punishments. If it's too easy for one character to put others in such a situation, I'd say that's more an issue with character balance than any universal mechanics.

On the other hand, I don't agree with "universal defensive ability reduces depth". Any mechanic or idea can make a game more or less deep, it's more about execution than absolutes. Beyond that, I don't see any evidence for the following statements. Fighting games, whether they adopt such mechanics or not, are always about multiple simultaneous rock paper scissors predictions going at once.

Whether a defensive mechanic exists or not, doesn't necessarily reduce things like meter management, timer and health advantage and how it impacts the player's strategies, each player's position vs the corner, etc.. I could see how it could negatively effect some of those elements depending on how it's implemented, but the "I thought you were going to do this, but you did that instead, and I was surprised." seems like a great exaggeration to me.

[Volteccer_Jack]

Fighting games, whether they adopt such mechanics or not, are always about multiple simultaneous rock paper scissors predictions going at once.

Lots of guessing happens, but that's not everything. Street Fighter allows powerful plays without guesses. When I say "bad situations", I'm talking about situations where one player has to guess but the other player doesn't. Walking forward pays out a reward instantly without any guessing. It can't be stopped except by gambling. It's so powerful that the entire game revolves around tactics to prevent or hinder it. Again, contrast that with Guilty Gear, where walking forward is so weak the game needs to punish players who don't walk forward. In SF, you can have a situation where a player is behind on life, yet nearly certain to win. That situation doesn't exist in Guilty Gear, for all the reasons quash outlined in his essay.

VF may lack a long-range game, but GG lacks a long-term game, which is worse.

[mariusrhpsd]

Again, contrast that with Guilty Gear, where walking forward is so weak the game needs to punish players who don't walk forward

Have you ever played guilty gear? This is seriously a legit question, because i can't fathom somebody that can understand the basics of the game and still make this post. Walking forward is one of the strongest tools in GG, it give you meter, wich gives you more options to mix up or do more damage, oki etc.

[quash]

Cherry-picking extreme examples without context isn't an argument.

My argument was made in the article, I was simply amplifying it.

But even in those examples, the losing player has already made multiple severe errors in order to wind up in such a dire situation.

Not always the case, so don't act like it. Sure, a Ryu/Ken/Sagat player would have to fuck up pretty badly to get cornered by Honda. But what about a Zangief, Cammy, Blanka, etc.?

I would also not make that argument for things like CVS2 Shosho, MOTW Kain guard crushes, etc. These are all things that can happen to you because you made a pretty minor error against someone with full meter.

And then come the justifications: "He had full meter". Well, okay, but it's not like every character is equally meter dependent, so having full meter doesn't necessarily mean he outplayed the other guy. "He got knocked down". Sure, it's a bad situation and it should be, but it shouldn't be enough to lose you the round because the game refuses to give you a way out. "Don't get in that situation". Easier said than done in a lot of instances, precisely because pre-airdash games in particular didn't give you adequate options for movement or defense.

Contrast with "make a single minor error and lose 40%+ health," which is a very common situation in airdash fighters like Guilty Gear.

You are missing the big picture here. Movement is a huge part of these games, and making a movement error is not minor because it means you were either spaced improperly (usually the case) or you mistimed something. Both of these things can happen to anyone in any game, but no other subgenre gives you as many ways to approach this and potentially avoid these situations altogether.

While I don't necessarily like the direction the subgenre is currently heading in with giving everyone meterless corner carries that lead to knockdown, it's not as much as an issue as it would be in say SF precisely because you have more movement and defensive options.

As an aside, I don't like Xrd's approach to defensive options nearly as much as +R's because blitz shield is basically a 3S parry with a whiff animation and a horrible, forced guessing game that slows the game down to a screeching halt. I also dislike YRC in part for this reason, but this is all a discussion for another day.

Universal defensive ability reduces depth

LOL

turns the round into just a long series of guessing games

You mean... like every fighting game there is?

to paraphrase Viscant's rant of legend, what should be an involved war for invisible resources is dumbed-down to the point of "I thought you were going to do this, but you did that instead, and I was surprised."

You are going to have to do more than paraphrase here because that statement on its own doesn't even make sense. I am willing to give you and Viscant the benefit of the doubt here, but you are going to have to elaborate on that.

Also, for what it's worth, he's playing Guilty Gear now. I beat him twice in the same tournament when I was visiting SD, and he seems to have a better understanding of these games than he did in 2003 or whenever.

It's pretty clear you didn't read the old SRK threads on the subject. Parry's problem is that it imposes a hard limit on how bad a situation can be (not very bad).

Even the theoretical hard limit on getting stuck in an Aegis loop is pretty goddamn horrible. Same goes for getting command grabbed by Makoto, fully charged Denjin oki, etc. Parry doesn't solve the important problems, and instead makes situations that in other games would be a non-issue into a guessing game that favors the defender (which, no matter how much you may want to say it, is not the case in GG).

It's not a horrible idea necessarily, but the way it was implemented and the way it fits in to the game overall just wasn't well executed.

[quash]

Lots of guessing happens, but that's not everything.

Of course, but the guessing is where the game gets interesting and where the big rewards should be reaped.

Street Fighter allows powerful plays without guesses. When I say "bad situations", I'm talking about situations where one player has to guess but the other player doesn't.

So just having to guess is a bad situation now, lol. No wonder your perception is so screwed.

Walking forward pays out a reward instantly without any guessing. It can't be stopped except by gambling. It's so powerful that the entire game revolves around tactics to prevent or hinder it. Again, contrast that with Guilty Gear, where walking forward is so weak the game needs to punish players who don't walk forward.

You are going to need to give some examples here because you are not making a strong case without them.

Also, Guilty Gear doesn't punish people for not walking forward, it punishes people for slowing the game to a standstill. And actually, walking forward is pretty fucking strong in Guilty Gear, and would be even if it didn't give you meter. Walking forward can put you in perfect position to anti-air someone who just tried to jump in on you, counter-poke someone who thought you were out of range, etc.

In SF, you can have a situation where a player is behind on life, yet nearly certain to win. That situation doesn't exist in Guilty Gear, for all the reasons quash outlined in his essay.

Again, examples. I have made plenty of comebacks in Guilty Gear through utilizing the options the game gives me to do so.

[Cagar]

Better netcode.


Fingers crossed for Hokuto no Ken.

Dat Xrd hype

[system11]

Turns out the PS4 port is shitty, avoid it.

As well as graphical issues people are reporting input lag.

[iconoclast]

Turns out the PS4 port is shitty, avoid it.

As well as graphical issues people are reporting input lag.

For USF4? That's funny, they specifically said they were going to fix the input lag that made Capcom's PS3 ports shitty.

Good thing EVO decided they were going to run the PS4 version right after it was announced. Can't say no to those Sony adbux.

[trap15]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3_uTlgodXE
10/10 top quality port.

[quash]

Johnny's back!

[Blinge]

Oh god.. GGAC+R has less input leniency than I'm used to from BBCP..

I've been exposed! =[

[Obscura]

then move on to something bigger and better like UNIEL or Skullgirls.

Ah, much better.

Tell me more about how you make something better by replacing a better game with a worse one

(If anything, the one that should have been replaced was UNIEL. There's a lot to like about that game, but Vorpal/GRD... eeeeuuuuuggghhh.)

Also, X-Factor is a very good idea, but lvl 3 is a bit too dominating.

[KAI]

Best girl confirmed on Xrd Revelator

Spoiler

[Volteccer_Jack]

Not always the case, so don't act like it.

If you are cornered in Street Fighter, you have either made multiple severe errors, or a large number of minor errors. Full stop. Honda doesn't have a corner carry combo.

a pretty minor error against someone with full meter

You are missing the big picture here. Movement is a huge part of these games, and making a movement error is not minor because it means you were either spaced improperly (usually the case) or you mistimed something. Both of these things can happen to anyone in any game, but no other subgenre gives you as many ways to approach this and potentially avoid these situations altogether.

Mis-timing a single button press by few frames in a totally neutral situation is NOT a minor error, but doing something that you know for a fact exposes you to a possible super punish IS a minor error? To quote you, "LOL"

You are going to have to do more than paraphrase here because that statement on its own doesn't even make sense.

There's two layers, the fight to gain resources, and the fight to spend them. Gaining resources involves little to no guessing, and is mainly about valuation and strategy. Which resources are most valuable to you? To your opponent? How much of your other resources are you willing to give up for more important ones? Guessing comes in for the second layer. Spending resources nearly always consists of selecting a particular guessing game, and forcing it to happen. Sometimes you give up the resource in the act of committing, other times you simply bet it on your guess. The winner of the guess typically gets to take their choice of resources as a reward. In a good game, you have a symbiotic relationship, where stray hits can't make much headway against strategy, but strategies are still vulnerable to being overturned by well-placed reads.

With universal defensive tools, all guessing games become "fair", which hamstrings strategy. When you can never build an advantage greater than that conferred by a single bnb combo, the choices you make about which resources to give and take become irrelevant. The outrageous combos in airdash fighters only make this worse, because even if you somehow get into a situation you can't easily handle, any hit you land instantly solves that problem by allowing you to carry the opponent into whatever the hell position you want.

So you have two games. The good fighting game, where you lose because you mis-used resources and didn't properly adapt to the opponent's gameplan. And you have the fighting game where every character has the tools for every situation, where you lose because you thought the other guy was going to do this, but he didn't, and you were surprised.

So just having to guess is a bad situation now, lol.

I very clearly described it as one player having to make a guess while the other player doesn't. Having to guess is always bad, because it includes the possibility of being wrong. People don't pick top tiers because they love guessing, they pick top tiers because they want to guess as little as possible, and they want the guesses they do make to be stacked in their favor. The same logic applies to every single other decision.

You are going to need to give some examples here because you are not making a strong case without them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xYLVD379aI
And old set from back when I was trying to take SF4 seriously, the first round is a textbook example. At the start, they're dead even (actually advantage Guile, but Lamerboi doesn't do much of anything with the advantage), and with each little forward movement Ryu makes, you can see how having less room to move makes Guile's defense weaker and weaker, forcing him to take more and more risks, until he's backed into the wall. The whole round can be summed up as "Daigo walks forward, Lamerboi doesn't stop him, Daigo wins". Walking is the only safe form of movement in SF, so by walking forward, you literally decrease the other player's ability to move. Games with other forms of movement can't compare.

It's also a great example of what I meant about winning without a health lead. Daigo is behind on life for most of the round, but he's in total control the whole time; it's his round to lose. This can't happen with universal defensive tools, because when both players have the tools to escape any situation, health is the only meaningful defensive advantage.

[Obscura]

With universal defensive tools, all guessing games become "fair", which hamstrings strategy. When you can never build an advantage greater than that conferred by a single bnb combo, the choices you make about which resources to give and take become irrelevant.

lolwat

Have you ever even played a Guilty Gear game? Most characters have to choose between max damage or knockdown, and despite the universal defensive systems, knockdown is potentially a big deal in Guilty Gear (play against a competent Milia if you don't believe me) Then there's also choices about whether to spend meter (or other resources your character has, such as coins, cards, Eddie meter, or a hairpin) on combo damage or whether to save them for setups, and they're not decisions where there's an obvious "right" answer (compare Bleed's Johnny to DC's Johnny).

I mean, Guilty Gear's insanely oppressive Oki game is like the definition of "stray hits can't make much headway against strategy, but strategies are still vulnerable to being overturned by well-placed reads.". Good lord, if you think the guessing games after Milia knocks you down are "fair", I have no idea what to tell you.

[Blinge]

My fucking face..

just realised Xrd has an EU release date now.. and I just bought ggac+r today. Fucksake. I would've just gone for xrd.

[quash]

If you are cornered in Street Fighter, you have either made multiple severe errors, or a large number of minor errors. Full stop. Honda doesn't have a corner carry combo.

Are you serious right now? ST Honda can get you in the corner with two headbutts. It's not hard for him to land headbutts on anyone that lacks a projectile, either. He can punish virtually any non-projectile move in the game with it and it knocks the opponent back a huge distance even on block.

Mis-timing a single button press by few frames in a totally neutral situation is NOT a minor error, but doing something that you know for a fact exposes you to a possible super punish IS a minor error? To quote you, "LOL"

None of my examples involved super punishes of any kind. I was talking about guard crushes you can set up off of nearly any kind of knockdown.

Which resources are most valuable to you? To your opponent? How much of your other resources are you willing to give up for more important ones?

What resources are there besides meter and positioning? You need to be more clear about what it is you're talking about here, it makes your whole theory difficult to follow.

If we're talking meter management, I wouldn't say SFIV in particular places that much emphasis on it compared to other classic style fighters like KOF.

With universal defensive tools, all guessing games become "fair", which hamstrings strategy.

So blocking "hamstrings strategy" by your logic. I mean, it's a universal defensive tool, so why wouldn't it?

When you can never build an advantage greater than that conferred by a single bnb combo, the choices you make about which resources to give and take become irrelevant.

Not even close dude, lol. Choosing your combo route in a game like Guilty Gear is pretty crucial for a number of reasons, including but not limited to meter efficiency, positioning and frame advantage after it ends, etc.

The outrageous combos in airdash fighters only make this worse, because even if you somehow get into a situation you can't easily handle, any hit you land instantly solves that problem by allowing you to carry the opponent into whatever the hell position you want.

You seem to be under the impression that the majority of characters in these games operate like Millia, when she is basically the exception to the rule exactly because of her overwhelming strengths in these areas.

And you have the fighting game where every character has the tools for every situation, where you lose because you thought the other guy was going to do this, but he didn't, and you were surprised.

Not every character has the tools for every situation, lol.

You really do not understand how this game works. You need to particularly read the part of my article where I explain in great detail how Guilty Gear doesn't let you do something as much as it lets you attempt to escape. Jumping out of the corner can be baited pretty hard. You can either sit there and play it safe, while also risking not getting out of the corner, or you can try to get out and potentially be your own undoing.

Having to guess is always bad, because it includes the possibility of being wrong.

By that logic, you are in a bad situation until you win the round. You are always guessing dude, even on offense. What matters is getting in situations where the guessing game is in your favor. The exceptions to this are the "eat shit" situations where you have literally no options against what the opponent will do next, which is something the genre has tried to eliminate for quite some time.

It's also a great example of what I meant about winning without a health lead. Daigo is behind on life for most of the round, but he's in total control the whole time; it's his round to lose. This can't happen with universal defensive tools, because when both players have the tools to escape any situation, health is the only meaningful defensive advantage.

Bullshit. There's plenty of ways you can control the match in Guilty Gear even with a life deficit. Go watch some Testament or Justice players in +R for the obvious examples.

[Formless God]

Best girl confirmed on Xrd Revelator

gay
wheres dizzi

[MOSQUITO FIGHTER]

Godzilla VS looks so fucking cool

I need this.

[Volteccer_Jack]

ST Honda can get you in the corner with two headbutts.

So an absolute minimum of two severe errors, then. Glad that you've conceded the point.

None of my examples involved super punishes of any kind.

You said "against someone with full meter". I even quoted you in my post, for fuck's sake. You make a mistake, and the opponent spends their super punishing it. In what universe is that not a "super punish"?

So blocking "hamstrings strategy" by your logic. I mean, it's a universal defensive tool, so why wouldn't it?

No it isn't. We've already been over how parry isn't even truly universal, and it's much much much more powerful than blocking. The whole reason Guilty Gear needs a million different mechanics is because even three different kinds of blocking don't cover all threats.

Not even close dude, lol. Choosing your combo route in a game like Guilty Gear is pretty crucial for a number of reasons, including but not limited to meter efficiency, positioning and frame advantage after it ends, etc.

Me: Fishing for combos gives a bigger strategic advantage than playing strategically.
You: Not even close LOLOLOLOL, combos give lots of strategic advantage!

Not every character has the tools for every situation, lol.

You really do not understand how this game works. You need to particularly read the part of my article where I explain in great detail how Guilty Gear doesn't let you do something as much as it lets you attempt to escape.

These word games are getting annoying.
You can "attempt" to do literally anything at literally any time. That's just a weasel word that obscures the meaning of your statement.
Letting you do something IS IN FACT THE SAME AS letting you do something.
Doing things requires tools, ergo your first sentence is contradicted by your third.

You are always guessing dude, even on offense.

I already explained how walking forward is inherently offensive, yet is not a guess. I don't know how to put it in simpler terms than that.

situations where you have literally no options against what the opponent will do next, which is something the genre has tried to eliminate for quite some time.

So why does chip damage still exist, and why is it bigger than ever in MvC3/MKX? Why are bursts limited to once per round? The raison d'etre for bursts is to "fix" situations where the defender has literally no options, so by your logic the defender should be able to burst many times per round. It can be "baited pretty hard" after all, there's no balance issue, so according to you it can be nothing but good.* Why do modern fighting games focus on long combos in the first place? You're delusional if you think the genre has made any effort to eliminate non-guess situations.

*DBZ Burst Limit actually does let you burst every few seconds, and I'm one of the few people who don't hate the game.

Bullshit. There's plenty of ways you can control the match in Guilty Gear even with a life deficit. Go watch some Testament

No, he can't. He can set-up plays ahead of time, he can play a hell of a lot more long-term than 90% of the cast, he can even control where on the stage the battle occurs. But none of that matters because nothing he does can overwhelm Guilty Gear's defensive mechanics, which means he cannot gain advantage over a significant health lead. He and Eddie do come the closest to what I'm talking about though, which is why they're both top tier.

[Skykid]

Man, Guilty Gear is about as much of a convoluted, over-complicated pain in the ass to witness an argument about as it is to play.

[quash]

So an absolute minimum of two severe errors, then. Glad that you've conceded the point.

Two errors that against anyone else wouldn't be severe, or even errors at all. Honda is a character that turns the fundamentals of ST upside down and anyone who plays the game knows that.

You said "against someone with full meter". I even quoted you in my post, for fuck's sake. You make a mistake, and the opponent spends their super punishing it. In what universe is that not a "super punish"?

Your inexperience is really showing through here. Punishing is reacting to a move that was either whiffed or unsafe and using that window of time to directly attack the opponent.

Kain throws a fireball and Rock Shine Knuckles through to punish him before recovery ends = super punish

Someone gets knocked down and eats an inescapable guard crush from Kain = not a super punish

No it isn't. We've already been over how parry isn't even truly universal

Universally accessible does not mean universally useful. This seems to be a common theme in your line of reasoning.

and it's much much much more powerful than blocking. The whole reason Guilty Gear needs a million different mechanics is because even three different kinds of blocking don't cover all threats.

And you seem to be under the impression that having a catch-all solution is somehow superior to having multiple solutions that only work against certain tactics.

Me: Fishing for combos gives a bigger strategic advantage than playing strategically.
You: Not even close LOLOLOLOL, combos give lots of strategic advantage!

You are missing the point, again. There is plenty of strategic play in Guilty Gear, and combos add to it.

You can "attempt" to do literally anything at literally any time. That's just a weasel word that obscures the meaning of your statement.
Letting you do something IS IN FACT THE SAME AS letting you do something.

Again, missing the point. You do not have an out at all times in every situation, so stop acting like that is the case. You do however have the opportunity to create an out at a later time.

I already explained how walking forward is inherently offensive, yet is not a guess. I don't know how to put it in simpler terms than that.

Spacing is a mixup, dude. I don't know how to put it in simpler terms than that.

So why does chip damage still exist, and why is it bigger than ever in MvC3/MKX?

Because in the good, modern fighting games you have ways to negate it, given you have the resources to do so. Marvel 3 is a pretty shitty game and even it has a ways to reduce chip.

Why are bursts limited to once per round? The raison d'etre for bursts is to "fix" situations where the defender has literally no options, so by your logic the defender should be able to burst many times per round.

First of all, not all games limit bursts to once per round.

Secondly, bursts are there primarily to prevent infinites and they do a good enough job of that. Bursts are obviously quite useful for getting out of combos in general, as well, but that is a strategic decision if there ever was one. Risk getting baited now and being unable to burst again for a long time in exchange for possibly not having to eat a full combo + mixup.

Using a burst on defense (outside of combos) is actually a pretty big risk most of the time, primarily due to the recovery on bursts, but there are other reasons, too (holding back during blockstrings will let you guard immediately after recovery which can be used to bait bursts).

You're delusional if you think the genre has made any effort to eliminate non-guess situations.

The good ones have.

No, he can't. He can set-up plays ahead of time, he can play a hell of a lot more long-term than 90% of the cast, he can even control where on the stage the battle occurs. But none of that matters because nothing he does can overwhelm Guilty Gear's defensive mechanics, which means he cannot gain advantage over a significant health lead.

Dude, seriously, stop for a minute and think. You're saying he can't overwhelm the defensive options of the game when that is patently false. You aren't doing anything against a properly timed EXE Beast/tree, I assure you. But what he does after that guaranteed opportunity is where you can make a good read and attempt to get yourself out of his game.

Basically, your entire understanding of the way the game flows is wrong, which is probably due to some underpinning misconceptions about the genre as a whole.

[quash]

I'm going to assume good faith and go as far as to say that you have at least played the game, and have perhaps watched (and grossly misunderstood) higher level matches.

If you ever decide to play or watch the game ever gain, I want you to ask yourself why lesser players seem to be getting hit all the time while better players are usually just blocking (the normal kind) and waiting for their chance to make a read and get out, if they attempt to do so at all?

Hopefully, this will make things much more clear to you.

[quash]

Man, Guilty Gear is about as much of a convoluted, over-complicated pain in the ass to witness an argument about as it is to play.

The crazy thing is that Guilty Gear really isn't that complicated once you get down to it. A lot of what this dude is saying is so great about Street Fighter is just as applicable to Guilty Gear because it took a ton of influence from SF. I even broke down the similarities in the neutral game in my article to the point where you'd have to have never played a fighting game in your life to misunderstand it.

Yet here we are, arguing about how "universal options reduce depth", and how Guilty Gear doesn't let you win from a life deficit because "the defensive options can't be overwhelmed".

[quash]

Let's go back to your whole "you did something else, and I was surprised" thing for a moment. It's a hilariously dated notion of how these games works at best, and a horrible misunderstanding of how fighting games in general work at worst.

You do not just "do something", dude. Let's say I managed to jump out of your blockstring successfully. Okay, great! Now I have to figure out a way to position myself out of the corner or hit you.

If I airdash forward/double jump, I risk getting anti-aired.

If I try to attack you on the way down, I risk getting anti-aired (airthrows will beat everything when performed correctly, and that's an offensive option more than a defensive one).

Where's the guess that's in the defender's favor? Trick question: there isn't one. You can be surprised as the aggressor all you want, but you are still in control of this situation until you allow it to slip away from you. If your cognizance is so poor that you can't even confirm moves on block and react accordingly, that is an issue that will hamper your ability to keep people cornered in any game, including SF, and especially in SFIV.

Guilty Gear and airdash games as a whole still greatly favor the aggressor. There's mixups in these games that are straight up impossible to replicate in older style 2D fighters. The universal options these games have are a way to make sure that those don't overpower the ability to play good defense, while allowing those who want to make hard reads the chance to do so (but again, at their own risk).

[Blinge]

Man, Guilty Gear is about as much of a convoluted, over-complicated pain in the ass to witness an argument about as it is to play.

haha. Aren't you a KoF fan? I'm thinking kof13, I don't know much about the others.

[Squire Grooktook]

My fucking face..

just realised Xrd has an EU release date now.. and I just bought ggac+r today. Fucksake. I would've just gone for xrd.

Actually you made the right choice. Xrd is a pretty big step back from AC, imo.

Hell, probably one of the rare cases I don't need to put "imo" in. Haven't heard anyone besides Sirlin (lol) place Xrd above AC in anyway besides newness.

[BulletMagnet]

New Tekken character. Teleporting tiger included.

[Blinge]

The Greatest Ken Player Ever