Display advice

[Ed Oscuro]

I've seen video of other people getting the exact same problems in Skyrim. I'm also not running the game at settings high enough to cause problems with heat. Other people have discussed the problem appearing after going to new drivers, too.

[Lord of Pirates]

That's just sticker price though, and (for me) a lot hinges on how new AMD cards review. (This won't be as big a deal if the buyer is willing to refresh their hardware regularly.) If they are still power-hungry, my total cost of ownership goes up and suddenly G-SYNC isn't so expensive to get similar quality with similar graphics cards. Just as importantly, I'm not so optimistic about AMD's future, even though the graphics division seems pretty good, although that might not matter to the future of FreeSync (precisely, the open standard portion, not the trademark) much.

Unfortunately I'm not sure there's going to be a usable comparison any time soon; the rumored upcoming AMD cards both sound like expensive high-end parts. I am hopeful that they will improve on power greatly - it doesn't have to be to nVidia levels - while keeping double precision capability high (nice to have in a pinch) and also releasing a card with roughly GeForce 960 price and capability. Worst case scenario is that the upcoming cards are uncompetitive or too far delayed, and nVidia feels no pressure to reduce pricing across the board.

Also, AMD drivers on my HD5850 are already starting to break selectively in certain games - it looks like quite a few people are getting purple fog in Skyrim's loading screens, and other odd visual glitches. Of course, holding onto old cards for extraordinary periods of time isn't for everyone, but I don't feel terribly good about the prospect of losing support for even older games by just keeping the drivers up to date.

Hopefully the upcoming Windows 10 release (and DirectX 12 along with it) can shed some light on the upcoming ecosystem, too.

The power cost is only going to make a difference if the power bill is awful already or if you're keeping the card for a long while (which I assume is the case with you having a 5K series card). I've been trying to keep up and upgrade to minimize overall cost so power usage isn't a huge deal to me. I'm looking at it from the perspective that G-sync is an additional cost and I'm more interested in core performance (processing lag, ghosting, color accuracy, etc.) than I am G/Freesync. With as long as it's taking for the XG270HU and MG279Q I may be able to get a deal on the XB270HU before either of the other two is available .

You may want to rollback your drivers and leave it on whatever was last stable, I had to do that for my 6850 a few months ago. There's a good guide on OCN for fully uninstalling the drivers if you need it. Have you cleaned the card recently?

[Ed Oscuro]

Yeah, I've been putting off a rollback. I might just go ahead and reinstall the OS, and pick an older driver instead. Not sure how many driver revs this problem has been carried through, though.

btw, looking at this site and using their default 12 cents / kWh figure along with 3 hours of use a day, 120W is going to cost more than $15 yearly. Of course, the highest-end part I'd seriously look at right now (the GTX 960) is well behind in price compared to Tom's AMD pick for April at that price bracket, the R9 280X.

Of course I am throwing more weight behind the low-TDP cards than just that - less strain on components and noise leads to some unspecified bias

I don't think processing lag will be an issue with either FreeSync or G-SYNC displays, at least in the a-sync mode. It'll mainly be down to studying individual monitor reviews, I bet.

[Xan]

It's always been the same with newer drivers breaking older software, doesn't even matter if it's AMD or Nvidia. There are probably tons of regressions of older per-game fixes and drivers aren't tested with older games because nobody cares anyway. Even DX9 Skyrim at this point is probably considered ancient with DX12 being around the corner now. The joys of PC gaming.

At some point using old drivers isn't even a very viable option with features like G-Sync etc. making it into newer ones, or even last year's CPU overhead improvements for Nvidia.

[Ed Oscuro]

The good news is that support for newer cards should still be better - that's what drivers are, after all, implementations of the rendering systems for particular hardware. It may just be that AMD hasn't hit a threshhold of bugginess for even a big name game like SkyRim to move on its old hardware drivers.

AMD (and ATI before it) has always been dogged by complaints of poor support; I'm not an early adopter so I've never been bothered by it until now.

[Lord of Pirates]

My madVR performance took a nosedive with my 780 after a driver update. There are always problems on either side. Here's the OCN guide if you didn't feel like reinstalling the OS. I think they compromised on the 960 more than they should've but it's not too bad for the price.

[Xan]

The good news is that support for newer cards should still be better - that's what drivers are, after all, implementations of the rendering systems for particular hardware.

Generally it's not about basic Direct3D rendering functions, it's about things like vendor specific extensions (e.g. lighting in Splinter Cell, bump mapping in Republic Commando), "obsolete" texture formats or programming quirks in games that require driver fixes. Also regressions in new operating systems where the video driver isn't even at fault. I don't see any of those things getting better in the future. Of course a newer card might (or might not) help in specific cases, but the trend is still pretty clear.

[ZellSF]

Someone is working on fixing Splinter Cell Pandora Tomorrow, maybe he moves on to other games in the series if he ever finishes with that:

http://www.jiri-dvorak.cz/scellpt/

Google also tells me the latest AMD drivers fixes some Skyrim bugs. That said the occasional loss in backwards compatibility is something you have to deal with as a PC gamer, every new piece of hardware or software might break something. You might just have to set up a dedicated box to play some games. 99% of games work fine though.


Acer Predator XB270HU is my next display. Will wait to see if it has any glaring widespread QA issues to see if I need to buy it from a place with good return policies.

[evil_ash_xero]

I'm looking to get a new monitor. This is specifically for HD systems. So, no need to worry about older systems or anything like that.

I'm wanting something that has sub 1 frame input lag. As little as possible. This is more important than it being a TN or whatever the letters are for the "lesser" LCDs.

It would be nice if it had portrait mode, out of the box, so I don't have to buy a new stand for it.

Anything out there, with good reviews? I can't find the thread on Shoryuken forums anymore.

[Xyga]

SRK info was old and not based on proper testings anyway.

There's quite a number of monitors mentioned in the thread and pretty much all feature sub-1 frame lag (all reviewed by reliable websites).
Some include a rotating stand as well.

Read just one page back and you'll already learn about much stuff and good products.

[evil_ash_xero]

The only 'glossy' alternative is the Dell S2415H (exists in 27"), be careful though it is a very reflective screen, which can be a problem in broad daylight.
Also Dell are famous for their poorer-than-average factory quality control, issues like backlight bleeding are very common so make sure you get one from a vendor with very flexible and hassle-free returns policy.

OK, this is confusing as hell.
Last time I was looking, I just had to worry about 16:9 or 16:10. Now, the numbers are way higher.
One thing that is very important, is that it is 16:9 (or whatever higher equivalent there is), since I'm using my PS3 on it, and the picture will stretch, if it's not 16:9.

I was looking at this http://www.amazon.com/Dell-S2715H-27-In ... ell+S2715H, since it's the 27 inch version of what you mentioned here. Any idea on it's input lag?
Also, if it doesn't come with portrait mode, is there a stand is good for it?

This LOOKS like it's more than 16:9, but if I can force it into 16:9, then that's fine as well.
This is going to be a pain.

[Xyga]

Well since it's a Full-HD (1920x1080) it is 16:19, no worries.

The lag on that Dell is the same as the 24" model, 4.8ms according to that review: http://pcmonitors.info/reviews/dell-s2415h/
(pcmonitors are reliable so you can trust that figure)

Unfortunately I don't believe there's another glossy monitor of that size available, and definitely not w/ adjustable stand or VESA mounting option.

BTW do you want a glossy monitor for any particular reason besides the superior clarity ?
There's a member here who owns that very monitor, don't remember who but you could do a search with 'S2715H'.

Good snappy 27" monitors w/ adjustable stand (but not glossy);
- LG 27MB65PY-B (1080p IPS)
- 27MB85R-B (1440p IPS)
- any current mainstream LG 1080p monitor I've mentioned on page 5; all have VESA mounting holes so you can buy a desktop stand w/ rotation ability separately.
- Iiyama XB2783HSU-B1 (1080p VA)
- BenQ BL2700HT (1080p VA)

Smaller 16:9 monitors (23" & 24") more often include a rotatable stand, but I don't know if you consider that size or not.

If you go actual 16:10 there are a few good 24" options with internal aspect ratio control that will keep 16:9 sources such as consoles the right aspect (letterboxed) like the Asus PB248Q & VS24AHL or Eizo EV2455.

There are also much larger and up to 4K monitors already but not all with really low lag or thay are just too expensive IMHO.

Oh and moar, I always repost that useful link: http://wecravegamestoo.com/forums/monit ... ost1359159

[evil_ash_xero]

That batch of monitors you listed...do you know the lag on those? over 4, is more than I was wanting.
And I can do without gloss. I'd like it, but I'm more focused on the input lag.

Thanks for the help.

[Xyga]

Almost all are reviewed on websites like tftcentral.co.uk, prad.de (DE), pcmonitors.info, playwares.com (KR), overclockers.ru (RU), which do reliable lag measurements.
Well there have been doubts with prad a couple of times but I still value their reviews.

I don't want to go and find again the links to the reviews (you can google that easily) but IIRC they're usually in the 4~6ms.
A number are more around 10ms.
Those that go beyond I often don't mention.

Note that some lag measurement are most often valid across a same products series or range, even if the models have slightly different names and secondary features such as size, coating or color filters, they're essentially, technically the same.
(plus once you're used to one particular name brand's habits and product segments over the years you realize they're all using the same few panels and parts from 2~3 manufacturers and they struggle to differentiate their products lol)

Back to lag; under 4ms are much fewer but they do exist, I don't usually focus on such tiny figures in particular because I am totally unable to make a difference between 0, 4, 6 and 10ms delay anyway.
(Few people besides those with a lot of training with specific games can sense even a full frame of delay)

For reviews in English tftcentral have been the best website for a while now (look at their lag charts), you can go there and pick whatever is to your liking, also the recommendations by NCX on wecravegamestoo are valuable.

[evil_ash_xero]

What do you think of this model?
It seems to have very low input lag, but I have some complaints of it's colors.

http://www.amazon.com/Asus-VG248QE-24-I ... B00B2HH7G0

I have a TN now, so I won't be hurting too much from color loss.
Also, this is a second monitor that I'm using, as I have a normal LCD TV, for less timing specific games.
This will be for platformers, shmups, and the upcoming NESHDMI.

[Fudoh]

If you're ok with 24" instead of 27" I want to recommend this Dell:

http://www.amazon.com/Dell-UltraSharp-U ... B00GTV05XG

It's among the fastest monitors in regard to input lag, very solid IPS and it has - by default - a stand which rotates in both directions. I'm using two of these at my desktop.

[evil_ash_xero]

Is there a 27 inch monitor, that has less than 3ms of input lag?

And as long as I can buy something for it, for portrait mode, I'm fine.

And of course, 16:9.

[Fudoh]

How do you go from "I'm wanting something that has sub 1 frame input lag" to "less than 3ms of input lag" in less than a day ? It really doesn't matter if you end up with 3, 5, or 8ms of lag. You won't be able to tell...

[Xyga]

Well the P2714H according to tftcentral sports the following (practically as fast as the models Fudoh just mentioned);
Total Display Lag (SMTT 2): 5.4
Pixel Response Time Element: 4.45
Estimated Signal Processing Lag: 0.95

Understand that the pixel response time has to do with the panel's responsiveness (onscreen, what you see)
And the signal processing lag has to do with the time it takes to the monitor's internal electronics to 'understand' and display the image, so if you want it's the actual 'input lag'.

The overall display lag considered is a synthesis of those elements.

Why do you need one that fast by the way ?
There are plenty of better deals in 27" imho that are rather in the 6ms like the several LG's I've mentioned throughout the thread.
Nobody in the world can tell even a 10ms difference, even fighting games champions.

PS: what Fudoh said again

[evil_ash_xero]

How do you go from "I'm wanting something that has sub 1 frame input lag" to "less than 3ms of input lag" in less than a day ? It really doesn't matter if you end up with 3, 5, or 8ms of lag. You won't be able to tell...

Well, it has to do with my horrible morphine addiction.



I think I'm going to go with the Asus VG248QE, as it seems very popular amongst gamers.

If anyone has some important info, on how this monitor sucks, let me know.

[Xyga]

Asus VG248QE, as it seems very popular amongst gamers.

Shit TN panel with the expected poor viewing angles, PWM (flickering) backlight, nothing to do with whatever normal shmupper would want.


NOTE: Oh God I'm so done with trying to help with monitors, total waste of my time.

[Xan]

There should just be a sticky with all the current recommendations IMO... reiterating the same shit all over again for everyone is a waste of time indeed, and it seems people aren't willing to do even a little bit of research themselves.

[Exidna]

Asus VG248QE, as it seems very popular amongst gamers.

Shit TN panel with the expected poor viewing angles, PWM (flickering) backlight, nothing to do with whatever normal shmupper would want.

PWM is bad, flicker is not.
The lack of flicker is the reason that most LCD panels today have so much motion blur.
The better gaming monitors now have Lightboost/ULMB modes which intentionally strobe the backlight to reduce image persistence and eliminate the "sample and hold" effect.

[Fudoh]

Seriously, if you go with 24", go with the Dell U2414. Why on earth would you pick the Asus instead ?

[Xyga]

@Exidna: only in a situation where you're actually using intended high frequency strobing (PC).

Otherwise unless already featuring very high pulse frequency backlighting (at least over 2000Hz, which is not common) it's exactly the opposite that's happening; it induces another form blurring and eye fatigue, even migraines for some people, PWM-free LED backlighting (or 'direct-current') has been a huge improvement on motion clarity and viewing comfort these past years on standard displays.
Buying a standard 60Hz full hd, wqhd or 4K monitor with flickery backlight is bad idea people, keep that in mind.
Anyway today most led lcd displays use flicker-free direct current, only some models back to 2012 and early 2013 were still using crappy PWM.

We should have a separate "PC monitors relevant to PC gaming and applications advice thread", or people should prior to asking advice specify if they are seeking things like 120Hz or HF strobing and for what reason they think they need it, because when we're talking about consoles, arcade hardware, scalers etc, the uses of such specs are very much limited to only emulation, and in under quite restrictive conditions.

Many if not most 'gaming' monitors we read about all over the internet if they are considered 'good' are with the assumption that gaming = PC = mostly FPS games.
Those monitors by a monstrous majority, with only a few just released exceptions, are useless crap irrelevant to the retro-arcado-shmupper needs.

Actually flat panels are mostly irrelevant to retrogaming period. And we shouldn't buy any... ugh shiet why am I writing stuff again !!?

PS: G-Sync / FreeSync though still rough around the edges for the latter, are very relevant and awesome.

[evil_ash_xero]

Seriously, if you go with 24", go with the Dell U2414. Why on earth would you pick the Asus instead ?

Flat out because of the extra low lag. I know I "won't be able to tell", but I still want the low lag.

The TN I have now, has zilch lag, and some said not to get it. But I did, and it serves it's purpose. Yeah, it ain't so hot in Tate, but it'll "do".
You have to keep in mind, this is not my ONLY TV/Monitor. I have two Sony Trinitron CRTs set up (one 27 and one 36), a Samsung 32 inch LCD (it has about 2 frames of lag). And then I have this LG monitor for my computer.
This is specifically for a handful of games on Xbox 360 and the Wii U. And upcoming, the NES HDMI. They'll just run into a switchbox, and I will use the Asus time to time, when I want to play the shmups or platformers. Other than that, I will be playing the other games on the Samsung.

So, even if it ain't that great, It's not like it's the only thing I have or will have access to. It's not like I will be looking at it constantly, and if the picture isn't great, I'm going to cry or something. If it's as good as this LG (and I suspect it will be), it will be good enough for this purpose.

But I do very much appreciate the advice. And I found the Asus in one of the links provided above. I didn't get exactly what you guys wanted me to get, but you did point me in the direction of some good info. And that's how I picked my monitor last time.

[ZellSF]

How do you go from "I'm wanting something that has sub 1 frame input lag" to "less than 3ms of input lag" in less than a day ? It really doesn't matter if you end up with 3, 5, or 8ms of lag. You won't be able to tell...

Well, it has to do with my horrible morphine addiction.



I think I'm going to go with the Asus VG248QE, as it seems very popular amongst gamers.

If anyone has some important info, on how this monitor sucks, let me know.

It was a popular monitor amongst when it was one of the first 144hz monitors and it was one of the first g-sync capable monitors (through an extra kit).

For console gamers, it was always a terrible monitor, for PC gamers it has been outpaced by other monitors. PC gaming monitors have made a lot of progress lately.

You should at least get a PWM-flicker free display without spending more money. If you're willing to spend more money you can probably get a non-TN display capable of 120hz or variable refresh rate. If you're willing to spend a lot of money... get the Acer XB270HU.

This is all for PC gaming of course, if you're not PC gaming, Fudoh's choice is very solid. I have to wonder why the hell you would look at the Acer for console gaming in the first place though.

Seriously, if you go with 24", go with the Dell U2414. Why on earth would you pick the Asus instead ?

If for console games, agreed. For PC games, 60hz and non-variable refresh rate is not good.

Flat out because of the extra low lag. I know I "won't be able to tell", but I still want the low lag.

At the cost of everything. Lag that you won't notice and won't affect your gaming performance in any way is not worth it. You're going the level of crazy that's buying Monster branded power cables. Stop it.

Hell, the guys buying Monster branded power cables might be wiser; they're not getting a worse experience because of their mistakes.

[evil_ash_xero]

Man, you guys REALLY don't want me to get this monitor.

If you can name a monitor that is less than 3 ms, is 16:9, and lives up to your standards, please let me know. 27 would be AWESOME, but 24 is doable. And I live in the U.S., so take that into account. There are many monitors recommended, that just aren't widely available here.

Throw something at me. I went and canceled the Asus.

One of the problems with the recommendations, is that I go to other sites, and they're like "not good for gaming", "too much lag". So, I get info that directly conflicts.
But the Asus is known to have very low lag.

And I don't really appreciate the "if you want this low of lag, you are INSANE!". There are plenty of people on the net, that talk about this. And it's not an expensive monitor at all. Kinda cheap. So, unless I was getting some 1000 dollar monitor, for a few ms shaved off, then I'd understand. But this really isn't the case here.

And also, this is one of the most anal forums on the net, so I think we all have our own obsessions. They may be different, but most people out there would probably think we were spending tons of money for nothing.

[Fudoh]

Flat out because of the extra low lag. I know I "won't be able to tell", but I still want the low lag.

Asus: 3.9ms, Dell: 4.0ms. Asus: TN, Dell: IPS, Asus: No rotation, Dell: rotates both ways. C'mon!

You only get less than 3ms out of the Asus if you feed it with a 120Hz signal, which you can't do with consoles and it's still a pain with most PC games as well.

Man, you guys REALLY don't want me to get this monitor.

your fault for asking here in the first place

[evil_ash_xero]

Flat out because of the extra low lag. I know I "won't be able to tell", but I still want the low lag.

Asus: 3.9ms, Dell: 4.0ms. Asus: TN, Dell: IPS, Asus: No rotation, Dell: rotates both ways. C'mon!

Can you recommend a 27 inch monitor?

And from what I read, the Asus is lower than that. But it seems that lots of sites have different results from their tests.
And the Asus does rotate, from what it showed in the Amazon ad.

Flat out because of the extra low lag. I know I "won't be able to tell", but I still want the low lag.

Asus: 3.9ms, Dell: 4.0ms. Asus: TN, Dell: IPS, Asus: No rotation, Dell: rotates both ways. C'mon!

You only get less than 3ms out of the Asus if you feed it with a 120Hz signal, which you can't do with consoles and it's still a pain with most PC games as well.

Man, you guys REALLY don't want me to get this monitor.

your fault for asking here in the first place

Ah ha! Now you got my attention.

OK, so what's the lowest lag, 27 inch, 16:9 monitor...that is one of the types you like (I barely know anything about LCDs..other than they have lag problems, and make my old games look poor)?