Display advice

[Kilmaattikahn]

Many thanks for the info-packed reply, Xyga

One question I hadn't thought of before, is HDCP essential (keeping in mind I intend to watch Blu-Rays via PS3)?

Thoughts on the Samsung S24D590PL? Decent enough or should I stick to one of your many suggestions instead?
EDIT: Or I could just use the search function to find out.

[Fudoh]

Without HDCP you won't get a picture from any BD playback device (or from a PS3 in general - even for games).

But you can be certain that every display with a HDMI port is fully HDCP compliant, so no problem.

[Xyga]

Thoughts on the Samsung S24D590PL? Decent enough or should I stick to one of your many suggestions instead?

The Samsung D590 and D390 are among my suggestions yes, though those are last year's models still available from many vendors, now in 2015 they're E390 and E590, but not in stock everywhere yet.
The D390 was found in various reviews to have better default color settings, but it's got one less HDMI input and less attractive bezels.

As mentioned earlier I prefer the LG models which by a hair perform the same and are better equipped for the price, 24MP57VQ or 24MP77HM would probably be my choice.
The only reason to choose the Samsungs I believe is they're maybe faster by a hair, and I really mean by a hair.
Only a very trained eye would be able to see even the smallest speed difference between a Samsung AD-PLS and an LG AH-IPS both driven by a balanced overdrive (which is pretty much the case on all those modern IPS monitors).

Anyway in reality as I don't play fast 3D games like FPS, I would buy an AMVA monitor, like the Iiyama.
Or if I had to buy an IPS it would be one with beyond-average contrast/black/coating performance for that type of panel.
I am thinking of the fantastic but expensive and not-the-easiest-to-purchase LG 27MB85R, or that other LG NCX hasn't finished reviewing yet.
Sticking to 24" I would pick the Eizo 2450 if the low glow panel is confirmed.

Clearly when it comes to IPS keep in mind that - of course they're the best alternative to TN - but most often the contrast and black levels those offer are just as shitty as any TN's.
Only a few IPS models really stand out in that field, and those are the models I would encourage people to go after.
The Samsung AD-PLS glow even more than the LG AH-IPS, hence even more of a problem when watching movies.

[Kilmaattikahn]

But you can be certain that every display with a HDMI port is fully HDCP compliant, so no problem.

Great, thanks!

Anyway in reality as I don't play fast 3D games like FPS, I would buy an AMVA monitor, like the Iiyama.
Or if I had to buy an IPS it would be one with beyond-average contrast/black/coating performance for that type of panel.
I am thinking of the fantastic but expensive and not-the-easiest-to-purchase LG 27MB85R, or that other LG NCX hasn't finished reviewing yet.
Sticking to 24" I would pick the Eizo 2450 if the low glow panel is confirmed.

The issue is that I'm trying to avoid online ordering and local physical stores haven't even heard of Eizo/Iiyama, so I'll have to stick with something from LG/Samsung/Dell/...

Clearly when it comes to IPS keep in mind that - of course they're the best alternative to TN - but most often the contrast and black levels those offer are just as shitty as any TN's.
Only a few IPS models really stand out in that field, and those are the models I would encourage people to go after.

So as a rule of thumb VA is the way to go? That might be hard for me to get because it seems LG and Samsung are mostly IPS.
Narrowing it down to 24" 1920x1080, are all of those better IPS models listed in either your revious reply or this post (which seems to only list IPS)?

[Xyga]

There's no rule of thumb, both LCD panel technologies have their pros and cons.

IPS pros
- best viewing angles
- most natural and evenly distributed colors
- fast pixel response times (second only to TN)
IPS cons
- poor contrast ratio and black levels in most cases
- off-angle 'glow' ruining the advantage of wide viewing angles in dark scenes

VA pros
- viewing angles are better than TN (but narrower than IPS)
- best contrast ratio and black levels (around three times better than both TN and IPS)
VA cons
- a bit less natural colors and not perfectly distributed (they go lighter on the corners if you look closely)
- possible 'black crush' effect around the center of the screen (black scenes rendered too dark and therefore hiding away some details)
- pixel response times are close to IPS except the most contrasted ones (quick black to white transitions for instance, can leave a dark trail)

So basically if you're into really fast games like FPS and critical color work like photo you'll prefer IPS,
if you're into less-frantically animated games and watching movies you'll prefer VA.

NCX gives very good advice and the reason why there's more IPS on his website is there are more manufactured and those usually fit gamer's needs more. He's got a dedicated VA thread you can check.

Not all models he mentions are available worldwide as you've noticed, the trick is to know what kind of panel and type of monitor it is.
The 1080p IPS from LG and PLS from Samsung found almost everywhere are all very, I mean VERY, similar in terms of quality and performance.
As I've mentioned myself it's more a matter of browsing their available model numbers and pick the size and features you like most.

You can narrow-down both brand's proposed standard 1080p IPS/PLS offers to the following;

LG -> **MP**HQ, **MP**VQ, **MP**HM
Samsung -> S**D390**, S**D590**, and new models S**E390** (not sure about the E590 variant yet)

ex.#1
LG 24MP65HQ = 24" 65 series (2014) HQ (HDMI+VGA)
LG 27MP67VQ = 27" 67 series (2015) VQ (HDMI+VGA+DVI)
etc...

ex.#2
Samsung S24D390HL = 24" SD390 series (2014) European model number (HL) -> Asian or NA would be 'PL' I think
Samsung S27D590P = 27" SD590 series (2014) European model number (P) -> same as above
Samsung S24E390HL = 24" SE390 series (2015) European model number (HL) -> same as above
etc...
The final letters in the Samsung model numbers aren't always clear but those mostly designate the region where the model is sold.
Sometimes you will even see other letters placed at the very beginning of the model number before the 'S', doesn't really matter.
Some Asian variants include a TV tuner and might perform differently.
Smaller 22" versions feature a TN panel I believe.

So whether it's LG or Samsung, all of those feature the same generic AH-IPS or AD-PLS panels, offering almost the same lag, colors, and response performances.
Again the differences will come from the model numbers that tell you the size, connectivity, year, region, etc.

Competiting brands like AOC, Acer, Asus etc offer more or less the same monitors, with the exact same panels manufactured by LG and Samsung, and as expected similar performances.

Yeah, this market is mostly... marketing.

PS: only Dell with their current S series make a significant difference as both S2415H and S2715H models are 'glossy'.
As well as the few Eizo featuring a 'low-glow' panel (when it's true).

[Kilmaattikahn]

LG -> **MP**HQ, **MP**VQ, **MP**HM
Samsung -> S**D390**, S**D590**, and new models S**E390** (not sure about the E590 variant yet)

So whether it's LG or Samsung, all of those feature the same generic AH-IPS or AD-PLS panels, offering almost the same lag, colors, and response performances.

This and IPS vs VA pros and cons overview are most helpful. Cheers, mate!

[Xyga]

Just make sure you can easily return/exchange your unit if it's got some obnoxious backlight bleeding !
Because this is a quite common manufacturing quality problem and particularly annoying on IPS panels.

Just to highlight what I'm talking about;

- Two examples of typical off-angle 'glow' as seen in the dark.
That's normal and you can't do anything against it, most lcd's and in particular TN and IPS will show more or less.



- Two examples of backlight bleeding, which is a manufacturing fault and shouldn't be accepted;



VA panels suffer less from this... actually they do as much, but you won't see it like you would on an IPS.

Good luck with your purchase !

[Kilmaattikahn]

Just make sure you can easily return/exchange your unit if it's got some obnoxious backlight bleeding !
Because this is a quite common manufacturing quality problem and particularly annoying on IPS panels.

Yeah, that's part of the reason I prefer a brick & mortar store for this, it'll be easier for me to return it if I lose the lottery. Thanks again for all the advice!

[dosu]

Acer Predator XB270HU
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/acer_xb270hu.htm

If it wasn't for the price(party due to GSYNC)
it looks pretty amazing, 3ms input lag, great response time and motion blur, 1440p

Though at 1080p/60p with displayport to hdmi still have the same input lag and all?

[Xyga]

Yeah we were talking about that one on the previous page, it's the display of the moment and probably of the year.
The big issue (for me at least) is that it doesn't take anything else but DisplayPort, and it's ULMB (flickering backlight feature) doesn't make much sense.
Also it's very expensive for a PC-only monitor.

-

Most 24" & 27" 1080p monitors on the market at the moment offer sub-1 frame lag, well at least the mainstream name brand models like Samsung, LG, Dell, Asus, etc do.

Some may have around 3ms, some may be around 10ms, but you'd have a hard time noticing the difference (unless maybe you are among the few god-tier players on this Earth for whom a +/- 5ms difference actually matters ).

Dunno about DP to HDMI and lag.

[dosu]

Yeah that kind of sucks, I guess the 1 displayport only is a Gsync thing?
I wonder how close to a CRT the motion blur is, my next monitor I hope will be just as good if they can actually pull that off.(and cheaper than the Acer lol)

[Xyga]

Certainly they could have included an internal I/O & scaler board able to manage other more typical video signals too, but it would have raised the price a bit and they're 100% targeting high-end PC gamers anyway...

[Xyga]

In response to "YONKE" http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... start=2130

i was referring to this one
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00K7CMY8C/?ta ... estmonitor

Mmh.. I can't speak about Viewsonic monitors, there isn't much talk about those, but I bet this one is like most current full-hd IPS monitors; the panel inside must be an LG AH-IPS or Samsung AD-PLS, which are extremely similar anyways so it doesn't make any sensible difference.
LG, Samsung, Dell, BenQ among others are known to do well-implemented overdrives today, but I don't know about Viewsonic...

2.4 ms respond time)
...
i think i can live with 3-5 ms , what is very important for my its ghosting (or blurness) because im very receptive to blurriness and easily my head start to hurt when i play in blurry monitors. on my LG tv ghosting its very minimal.

I suggest to not trust those advertised milliseconds too much, they're usually fake figures used for marketing and don't tell you about how the real 'ghosting' is perceived when you're gaming.
IPS panels are not as fast as TN's, but the difference is not dramatic. The typical IPS response time today is on average for all colors about 10ms (don't be surprised, that's actually quite fast) and a few select are a little more responsive around 7~8ms. The fastest known is around 5ms but it is very expensive.
The Dell P2414H and U2414H are around 7~8ms.
Most LG and Samsung around 10ms.
Really don't let that put you off, 7ms to 10ms is pretty fast as long as the RTC (overdrive) is well done, which has become a common thing with most brands.
Your LG TV is probably slower than that in reality, but you haven't noticed.

Here's - maybe - an explanation for your particular case; another source of ghosting/blur can be a flickering LED backlight, or 'PWM LED backlight'.
A minority of people are affected by it, they perceive it as 'blur' and it can cause headaches, maybe - maybe - that's your real problem here, and not the actual 'response time' of the LCD panel.
PWM is not found everywhere, it was common when LED backlight first appeared on the market, but today most LCD LED displays don't use PWM anymore.
Current monitors from LG, Samsung, Dell, BenQ, even Asus and Acer I believe, don't use PWM, so most of their mainstream displays should be safe.

Here's a good read if you want to learn more about responsiveness and ghosting: https://pcmonitors.info/articles/factor ... nsiveness/

After your suggestions on the LG brand i found this one
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00JFX ... _i=desktop
what do you think of this one?

Yeah it is well known, it is one of the best full-hd IPS on the market.
It is declined in various model names depending on the year of release and connectivity: 27MP65HQ, 27MP65VQ, 27MP67HQ, 27MP67VQ, also exist in 24" size.
Higher end model in the series is 27MP75HM, 27MP77HM (same as MP65 but with added speakers)
Below is 27MP55HQ, 27MP57HQ, 27MP55VQ (mostly the same but with thicker bezels, no fancy design)
etc.

Another good place for monitor suggestions is here: http://wecravegamestoo.com/forums/monit ... ssage.html

[Ed Oscuro]

After your suggestions on the LG brand i found this one
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00JFX ... _i=desktop
what do you think of this one?

Yeah it is well known, it is one of the best full-hd IPS on the market.
It is declined in various model names depending on the year of release and connectivity: 27MP65HQ, 27MP65VQ, 27MP67HQ, 27MP67VQ, also exist in 24" size.
Higher end model in the series is 27MP75HM, 27MP77HM (same as MP65 but with added speakers)
Below is 27MP55HQ, 27MP57HQ, 27MP55VQ (mostly the same but with thicker bezels, no fancy design)
etc.

Interesting, I didn't realize this was anything special, and there's only one (quite enthusiastic, however) user video review that I found. Amazon has some people complaining about ergonomics and signal detection, but these might be abnormal / user fault. The main thing that surprised me is that this display is a year old now (3 April 2014 release date), yet its price is about the same as newer options. If anything it seems to be slightly more expensive than at launch.

Speaking of older displays, this review caught my attention as Tom's still recommends it as a "Business" (semi-professional) option:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/pla ... ,3647.html

I wonder when this "extra clear" type of display has started appearing in other models since then. (It might not be any real advantage; I'll have to compare across reviews with these figures showing the display leading the class in gamma results (this page).

[Xyga]

Interesting, I didn't realize this was anything special, and there's only one (quite enthusiastic, however) user video review that I found. Amazon has some people complaining about ergonomics and signal detection, but these might be abnormal / user fault. The main thing that surprised me is that this display is a year old now (3 April 2014 release date), yet its price is about the same as newer options. If anything it seems to be slightly more expensive than at launch.

It's nothing special, just the good standard on 'normal' full-hd IPS monitors. The lower model series are just as good, just less stylish.
The Samsung equivalent would be the S27D390/S27D590.
Those are the 2013-2014 product numbers, but they still exist as identical products in 2015.
27MP65HQ became 27MP67HQ (or VQ) and that's it.
Dind't check the new Samsung model name but again it's the same as 2014 only with a new design.

Really when I say 'best on the market' you have to understand; 'as normal 1080p 60Hz monitors', nothing else.

There's only one review of the 27MP75HM in Russian on overclockers.ru, and I believe one of the 27MP65HQ in Korean on playerwares.
Both serious review websites, turns out they're identical in performance and quality (same panel, same manufacturer, same following series after all).
NCX also reviewed one on his forums and no surprise, in a way that's good because you know what you're buying.

Manufacturing faults are still very common, but it's the same with every brand, even Eizo who sell $1000+ monitors.
Dell maybe have a higher failing rate.

We all know it's only when going higher-grade 1440p monitors, G-Sync, and OLED that we can experience things that are actually better.
If we don't have the money: the 1080p IPS and AMVA displays are here and though still limited by the LCD technology, don't suck as much as they did just 3-4 years ago.

On that topic, we already know about the 144Hz IPS evolution, now there are other interesting things in view: http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/news_archiv ... lay_panels

[Ed Oscuro]

Really when I say 'best on the market' you have to understand; 'as normal 1080p 60Hz monitors', nothing else.

Of course, I hope nobody else gets confused. And you're right, it's easy to forget how many different monitors can share the exact same panel, let alone the same technology.

I can't help but think that, despite the dark spot in my screen, that I would be best served by continuing to hold off on new technology, so that things can continue to shake out and for prices to keep falling. I'm really pretty happy about the great displays showing up for just $260 or so; it used to be you'd have to pay a hell of a lot more just to get close to that quality.

Actually, on that Tom's Review I linked, one of the reviewers seemed to mirror my own confusion at Tom's apparent enthusiasm:

Looks exactly like the "new" QHD Iiyama. Doesn't perform well. Costs a lot. What's the advantage, again?

A year and a half later and Tom's still hasn't gotten to the elite tier of monitor reviewing sites, which is rather surprising actually. Love Daniel's powe strip teardowns though.

[YONKE]

Another good place for monitor suggestions is here: http://wecravegamestoo.com/forums/monit ... ssage.html

Thanks for all your advice i think im sold on the LG IPS monitor ,

reading this review help me out a lot http://wecravegamestoo.com/forums/monit ... h-ips.html

as you commented the LG 27MP35VQ-B in the link its very similar to 27MP65HQ .

This monitor plus a rotating vesa stand its going to be heaven....

[Ed Oscuro]

Did this get mentioned yet?

21:9 aspect ratio, okay...but the main interesting thing is that it will have multiple inputs, despite being G-SYNC! Obviously we need more details but this adds some flexibility to future G-SYNC models.

[Xyga]

as you commented the LG 27MP35VQ-B in the link its very similar to 27MP65HQ .
This monitor plus a rotating vesa stand its going to be heaven....

I'm wondering though if the MP35 (or MP37) have the same colour accuracy as their bigger brothers MP55 (MP57), MP65 (MP67) etc ?

When you go tot he LG website and select models to compare, there's a slight difference i've noticed regarding sRGB accuracy, the MP33, MP35, MP37, MP45, MP47 I believe all show sRGB 68%
When upper models starting MP55 to MP77 all show sRGB 72%.

Not sure if important but that's the only real difference I've noticed.
The LG product pages are a bit messy though so I don't how to take their own information.

Did this get mentioned yet?

21:9 aspect ratio, okay...but the main interesting thing is that it will have multiple inputs, despite being G-SYNC! Obviously we need more details but this adds some flexibility to future G-SYNC models.

Yeah a couple pages back I believe but it wasn't confirmed at the time.
It's expensive though considering it's not featuring the new AUO panel seen in the XB270HU.
Sure it's got HDMI this time, but it's also limited to 75Hz and I don't see the use for ULMB here.

If only they'd do the same as the XB270HU but in flat 32" and multi-input, I'd be happy to pay the now expected hype-inflated prices manufacturers ask for whatever new 'special feature monitor' they release on the market.

[Lord of Pirates]

I'm waiting to see how the MG279Q and XG270HU pan out, presuming the XG270HU ever becomes available. As interesting as G-Sync is I don't feel like shelling out the extra $200 specifically for it.

[bobrocks95]

I have a general G-sync/Freesync question I figure someone here would know-

Since the whole point is that you don't need Vsync active anymore, what happens when your GPU is rendering faster than the max refresh rate of the monitor? Do you still get tearing or thrown-away frames? Maybe either scenario just isn't really noticeable to anyone at 144Hz?

[Ed Oscuro]

It would either have to go into a V-Sync like mode, and the framerate / frame pacing might bounce around a little in the wait for the next frame, or it will tear. I haven't found an official source yet, but:
http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/339 ... th-g-sync/
...indicates currently it V-Syncs and nVidia will be adding an option to uncap (for tearing).

Same would apply to FreeSync.

Hitting the max framerate would only be a problem when playing on slower 60Hz monitors, or playing really old / power-sipping games.

[bobrocks95]

It would either have to go into a V-Sync like mode, and the framerate / frame pacing might bounce around a little in the wait for the next frame, or it will tear. I haven't found an official source yet, but:
http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/339 ... th-g-sync/
...indicates currently it V-Syncs and nVidia will be adding an option to uncap (for tearing).

Same would apply to FreeSync.

Hitting the max framerate would only be a problem when playing on slower 60Hz monitors, or playing really old / power-sipping games.

Thanks for the info!
And hey, some day all the games that are new right now will be really old and power-sipping. Maybe by then we'll have jumped to 240+ Hz monitors though and the problem will become even less important.

[Xan]

It's also possible to set very demanding settings in the driver to get the FPS below that monitor refresh rate.

[Lord of Pirates]

It's also possible to set very demanding settings in the driver to get the FPS below that monitor refresh rate.

When all else fails, force massive amounts of AA .

[bobrocks95]

Just found out about the ASUS MG279Q, which looks to be the first IPS 1440p Freesync monitor, at least as far as I've seen.

Is ghosting still an issue with Freesync? I've heard that it's due to a lack of variable voltage regulation for the panel's overdrive, whereas Gsync builds that into the module. I guess it's a manufacturer-dependent thing then? How's ASUS on that front?

[Ed Oscuro]

I've heard that it's due to a lack of variable voltage regulation for the panel's overdrive, whereas Gsync builds that into the module. I guess it's a manufacturer-dependent thing then?

Do you have more details on this? When I hear "manufacturer dependent" I think of the company putting together the basic firmware, OSD, and panel, so an ASUS, Planar, Dell, or Monoprice (to name a few), and of course panel makers often make their own displays (like LG). In older reviews it always seemed implied that the display maker selected the overdrive implementation, or at least the amount used, but now I'm not sure.

Unfortunately I don't see any good diagrams of recent monitors which could expose who adds the overdrive and when.

Overall, though, I'm not too worried about FreeSync. I think it remains to be shown that FreeSync is as good as G-SYNC, but on the flip side it's not clear that G-SYNC offers features that are compelling to most users for the price.

It's also possible to set very demanding settings in the driver to get the FPS below that monitor refresh rate.

I also wanted to point out that this seems like a poor alternative to using a soft FPS cap when available, as it is in a huge number of games. In fact, for many games that are well above 60Hz but can't be run at the desired detail setting at the monitor's max refresh rate, a soft cap should give a great compromise - a stable max refresh rate high above 60Hz, without the spikes or GPU demands of always aiming for the highest FPS possible, and all in a display environment much better than traditional v-sync or unsynchronized video can offer.

[Lord of Pirates]

I can't see justifying spending $200 more specifically for G-Sync if the MG279Q is as nice or better than the XB270HU.

[Ed Oscuro]

That's just sticker price though, and (for me) a lot hinges on how new AMD cards review. (This won't be as big a deal if the buyer is willing to refresh their hardware regularly.) If they are still power-hungry, my total cost of ownership goes up and suddenly G-SYNC isn't so expensive to get similar quality with similar graphics cards. Just as importantly, I'm not so optimistic about AMD's future, even though the graphics division seems pretty good, although that might not matter to the future of FreeSync (precisely, the open standard portion, not the trademark) much.

Unfortunately I'm not sure there's going to be a usable comparison any time soon; the rumored upcoming AMD cards both sound like expensive high-end parts. I am hopeful that they will improve on power greatly - it doesn't have to be to nVidia levels - while keeping double precision capability high (nice to have in a pinch) and also releasing a card with roughly GeForce 960 price and capability. Worst case scenario is that the upcoming cards are uncompetitive or too far delayed, and nVidia feels no pressure to reduce pricing across the board.

Also, AMD drivers on my HD5850 are already starting to break selectively in certain games - it looks like quite a few people are getting purple fog in Skyrim's loading screens, and other odd visual glitches. Of course, holding onto old cards for extraordinary periods of time isn't for everyone, but I don't feel terribly good about the prospect of losing support for even older games by just keeping the drivers up to date.

Hopefully the upcoming Windows 10 release (and DirectX 12 along with it) can shed some light on the upcoming ecosystem, too.

[bobrocks95]

Do you have more details on this? When I hear "manufacturer dependent" I think of the company putting together the basic firmware, OSD, and panel, so an ASUS, Planar, Dell, or Monoprice (to name a few), and of course panel makers often make their own displays (like LG). In older reviews it always seemed implied that the display maker selected the overdrive implementation, or at least the amount used, but now I'm not sure.

Unfortunately I don't see any good diagrams of recent monitors which could expose who adds the overdrive and when.

Overall, though, I'm not too worried about FreeSync. I think it remains to be shown that FreeSync is as good as G-SYNC, but on the flip side it's not clear that G-SYNC offers features that are compelling to most users for the price.

No more details that I know, just pieced together knowledge from various comments around the internet. I would think the display makers add that, seeing as how GSYNC is a separate module from the panel and does it. I really hope FreeSync takes off, industry-standard versions of things are generally preferable and will likely last longer, not that I'd expect Gsync to go anywhere any time soon.

That's just sticker price though, and (for me) a lot hinges on how new AMD cards review. (This won't be as big a deal if the buyer is willing to refresh their hardware regularly.) If they are still power-hungry, my total cost of ownership goes up and suddenly G-SYNC isn't so expensive to get similar quality with similar graphics cards. Just as importantly, I'm not so optimistic about AMD's future, even though the graphics division seems pretty good, although that might not matter to the future of FreeSync (precisely, the open standard portion, not the trademark) much.

Unfortunately I'm not sure there's going to be a usable comparison any time soon; the rumored upcoming AMD cards both sound like expensive high-end parts. I am hopeful that they will improve on power greatly - it doesn't have to be to nVidia levels - while keeping double precision capability high (nice to have in a pinch) and also releasing a card with roughly GeForce 960 price and capability. Worst case scenario is that the upcoming cards are uncompetitive or too far delayed, and nVidia feels no pressure to reduce pricing across the board.

I really hope AMD can pull through on the R9 300 line, not that things look that great; they really need to if they want to hold onto their already small market share. High bandwidth memory looks promising and should help with the power problem, but I don't know much of what else is going into the cards. I went AMD with my recent build simply because I couldn't justify spending so much on an equivalent nVidia card- they're definitely exploiting their market position to the fullest.

Also, AMD drivers on my HD5850 are already starting to break selectively in certain games - it looks like quite a few people are getting purple fog in Skyrim's loading screens, and other odd visual glitches. Of course, holding onto old cards for extraordinary periods of time isn't for everyone, but I don't feel terribly good about the prospect of losing support for even older games by just keeping the drivers up to date.

Sure that's a driver issue and not something wrong with the card? Probably depends mostly on if the HD5850 was a refresh of an older card or not. My 270 is like the 3rd rebranding of an old card, and I got one with lots of little visual glitches at first given that it's heavily overclocked.