PS2 480i Games to 240p. (i'm a noob)

[Charleaux330]

Ok, so I'm tired of racking my brain and would like to try to just ask as a noob. I've read Fudoh's Scanlines Demystified and have a pretty good idea on what I need to do, but I'm still scratching my head a bit. I don't want to buy the equipment and cables before I know for sure.

Here's my stuff: Sony PVM-14N6U (supports SoG and has ext. sync input), Fat PS2 SCHP-30000, and Okami (480i only game. does not support 480p).

Is it possible to get this 480i only game to 240p?

Should I buy PS2 Component cables These? Then get a Component to VGA adapter like this one Kramer C GM/3RVF-1 Then feed the VGA output to an VSC or RGB Interface. and out to the TV.

or do I...

Use a RGB PS2 Cable > Sync Strike > VSC > RGB Interface > MONITOR

Please help me. I have done my research. It's my understanding of the components is my problem. Please feel free to explain in detail a solution. Details help me understand whats going on. Thanks guys.

[BazookaBen]

Why do you want to change Okami to 240p? It's a 480i game, it has 480 vertical lines of resolution at 30 frame per second. If you change it to 240p, you'll be hiding half the image.

[Charleaux330]

Why do you want to change Okami to 240p? It's a 480i game, it has 480 vertical lines of resolution at 30 frame per second. If you change it to 240p, you'll be hiding half the image.

Is this true? I thought Id be getting a sharper picture? I hope more people will chime in on this.

I think id only need a rgb interace not the vsc.

[BazookaBen]

Is this true? I thought Id be getting a sharper picture? I hope more people will chime in on this.

I think id only need a rgb interace not the vsc.

You need to read up on the difference between interlaced and progressive resolutions, and why games/TV were rendered in 480i. Just think about it, if Okami is 480 lines of resolution, why would squishing or cutting that to 240 lines make it sharper?

The only time you would get a sharper picture with an Extron RGB is if the game was originally designed for 240p but is scaled up to 480i in the console port, like Mushihimesama. Then you're just returning it to it's orignal form.

Okami was designed from the ground up for a 480i resolution, it would look gross being downscaled to 240p on an RGB interface.

[Charleaux330]

Is this true? I thought Id be getting a sharper picture? I hope more people will chime in on this.

I think id only need a rgb interace not the vsc.

You need to read up on the difference between interlaced and progressive resolutions, and why games/TV were rendered in 480i. Just think about it, if Okami is 480 lines of resolution, why would squishing or cutting that to 240 lines make it sharper?

The only time you would get a sharper picture with an Extron RGB is if the game was originally designed for 240p but is scaled up to 480i in the console port, like Mushihimesama. Then you're just returning it to it's orignal form.

Okami was designed from the ground up for a 480i resolution, it would look gross being downscaled to 240p on an RGB interface.

I have thought of this exact thing. However I am set on a mission to get a better sharper picture from 480i games on the ps2. I agree that i may have a misunderstanding concerning all of this, but i need more information or people to confirm that 480i is the best picture i can get with okami or any other original/true 480i game On the ps2.

EDIT: Here is a quote from fudohs "scanlines demystified article". The Extron interfaces can also be used for a completely different approach: using a sync processing dip switch on the back, an incoming 480i RGB signal can be converted to 240p by adding a simple line offset. This simply tells the monitor to remove the line offset between the fields, handling the interlaced fields like progressive frames instead. This is by no means an official feature of those interfaces, but merely an accident, since the units were simply not created for interlaced 15khz signals. There are two caveats though: first this only works on CRTs which don't apply digital processing. It works great on arcade cabs, Sony PVM and BVM sets, most 90s TV sets, but likely not on newer TV sets and not if you want to feed your newly gained 240p signal into another upscaler. Second, if your source isn't a linedoubled 240p title, but a true hi-res game, then the resulting image will be 240p, but it will show a certain amount of flicker. Still much better than actually connecting a 480i source directly to your monitor.

He says in another part that you can go a bit further and use a VSCs antiflicker option to make the RGB interfaces flicker almost nonexistant.

I just found out that retrogamingcables.uk makes a female scart to din-15 output with sync stripper incorporated. So i believe i could use my ps2 scart cable to this adapter to an rgb interface and then out to my tv. Maybe even go the extra step to incorporate a vsc.

[BazookaBen]

I'm asking you to think about it. If a game is made of 480 unique lines, how does removing (or overlapping) 240 of those lines make it sharper?

Imagine looking at something in real life with a pair of glasses. Now draw 240 small black lines over your glasses. Did you see better before or after you drew those lines over your glasses?

When people talk about using an Extron RGB or VSC, it is to bring a 240p game which is improperly scaled to 480i by the console BACK to 240p. It only works for games that are truly 240 lines but are duplicated to 480i or 480p.

I guess you may be thinking about this sentence from Fudoh:

Second, if your source isn't a linedoubled 240p title, but a true hi-res game, then the resulting image will be 240p, but it will show a certain amount of flicker. Still much better than actually connecting a 480i source directly to your monitor.

I think that statement is demonstrably false, unless I'm misunderstanding what he means by hi-res title. Maybe he can chime in.

[CkRtech]

Despite the fact that I support retro gaming and go to an effort to try to make the output of these things look the best I can (as we all do), can I ask you this - Have you considered getting Okami HD for PS3?

[Charleaux330]

Despite the fact that I support retro gaming and go to an effort to try to make the output of these things look the best I can (as we all do), can I ask you this - Have you considered getting Okami HD for PS3?

I had no idea they made an hd remake For okami. That sounds great. Ps3 wasnt very appealing to me in the past, but here lately Ive learned some new things about it.

Glassjoe, Yeah I get exactly what your saying. I still refuse to believe 480i is better in this case though. It seems there is another shmup thread about doing the same thing im wanting to do. I just found it. Link Here Sounds like the problem would be trying to use a vsc, because it needs a 480p signal which is 31khz signal. The ps2 boots at 15khz. Some ps2 games can do 480p, but not okami. I would have no reason to downconvert a 480p image into 240p though... unless i was doing gamecube player gba titles.

So i guess it doesnt get any better for 480i only ps2 titles with either a extron emotia or a rgb interface? Im also a little confused on what he means by a high res title.

[BazookaBen]

Glassjoe, Yeah I get exactly what your saying. I still refuse to believe 480i is better in this case though.

Not sure why you would refuse to believe something while having no reasoning for doing so. What is "unbelievable" about what I'm saying?

I'll try to explain it to you a different way. Okami is a 30 fps game at 480i. At 30fps, 480i is just as good as 480p. Why?

Because all TV's scan at 60hz, which means they have to show something every 60th of a second. In a 480p/30fps game, it simply shows one full frame twice in a row, which adds up to 30 unique frames a second. For a 480i/30fps game, it simply shows one half of a frame, first odd lines then even lines, which every two 60ths of a second gives you a full frame. When you add that up, you still get 30 unique frames a second.

But then turning that into 240p is just ridiculous, because you would either squish two different lines together (Extron RGB) or remove odd/even lines altogether (Extron Emotia). Why would either of those be a good idea for Okami? Think about my glasses example earlier, it makes no sense.

[Charleaux330]

According to retrorgb progressive lines are drawn dIfferently than interlaced. Reducing flickering and blur.

[BazookaBen]

According to retrorgb progressive lines are drawn dIfferently than interlaced. Reducing flickering and blur.

Actually, they're drawn the same way(left to right, sequentially from the top to the bottom), what's different is when they're drawn each scan cycle. You need to read up on it a little bit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlaced_video

RetroRGB is talking about very specific situations, the blurring/flickering isn't a universal rule with video games. If your run Okami through an Extron RGB you're going to make the flicker and blurring worse. If you had a 480p version and ran it through an Extron Emotia, you would lose half your resolution, making it less sharp.

Where blurring/flickering is an issue is in games like Mega Man 9 on Wii, which is supposed to be a 240p game, but they just duplicate each line for a 480p buffer which is displayed as 480i. I know that probably doesn't make sense to you, but the end result is looks like 240p image that is shifted up and down by one line really fast. That creates the uncomfortable flickering/blurring RetroRGB refers too.

So I assume you've already played Okami a little at 480i? Are you using composite or S-video?

[Charleaux330]

I just started it before i left for work. Im using rgb?

Edit: I probably need to add a sync stripper to the playstation scart. All my other consoles are outputting csync. Maybe thats why its not as clear as Im used to.

Edit2: i dont know... read the second to last last section it talks about rgb interfaces from scanlines demystifIed. It sounds like getting a interface to put between my monitor and ps2 would give a better picture.

[BazookaBen]

I just started it before i left for work. Im using rgb?

Edit: I probably need to add a sync stripper to the playstation scart. All my other consoles are outputting csync. Maybe thats why its not as clear as Im used to.

RGB and Component are basically equal, you are getting the best picture quality you can get for Okami. Sync stripper isn't necessary on PVM's, they read the sync signal just fine. If you have a blurry picture, then your tube is bad, because RGB 480i is crystal clear, especially for 30fps games. Now, you will get flicker, especially on thin horizontal lines, but that is totally unavoidable, and you will only make it worse by running it through some sort of processor.

[BazookaBen]

Edit2: i dont know... read the second to last last section it talks about rgb interfaces from scanlines demystifIed. It sounds like getting a interface to put between my monitor and ps2 would give a better picture.

This is the part you're not understanding (from the same section):

If you imagine a classic low-res titles running line-doubled on a 360 (imagine Mushihimesama Futari or ESPGaluda II), lines 1 and 2 are identical and so are 3 and 4 (and so on). Merging lines 2 and 3 on the other hand, causes a certain bluriness and lack of sharpness.

Low-res is the important word here. These low-res (read: 240p) games are line-doubled to 480 lines on the Xbox, but they can be mixed back down to 240 because every two lines are identical. With Okami, every single one of the 480 lines is different, so you're going to end up combining brown pixels with blue pixels, and red pixels with green pixels, and so on, leading to a blurry mess.

[Charleaux330]

I understand what your saying. It makes perfect sense.


But why did he add this part "The Extron interfaces can also be used for a completely different approach: using a sync processing dip switch on the back, an incoming 480i RGB signal can be converted to 240p by adding a simple line offset. This simply tells the monitor to remove the line offset between the fields, handling the interlaced fields like progressive frames instead. This is by no means an official feature of those interfaces, but merely an accident, since the units were simply not created for interlaced 15khz signals. There are two caveats though: first this only works on CRTs which don't apply digital processing. It works great on arcade cabs, Sony PVM and BVM sets, most 90s TV sets, but likely not on newer TV sets and not if you want to feed your newly gained 240p signal into another upscaler. Second, if your source isn't a linedoubled 240p title, but a true hi-res game, then the resulting image will be 240p, but it will show a certain amount of flicker. Still much better than actually connecting a 480i source directly to your monitor. Extron RGB interfaces require a clean sync signal, so a sync stripper might be required on the input side. This might sound complicated, but at only $20 for the cheaper interfaces, that's definitely the cheapest way to true 240p on your arcade cab.

How is it better by running it through the rgb interface. Do the interlaced lines get scanlined out? Cause thats what it sounds like to me. And i dont believe hes talking about a linedoubled game.

[Fudoh]

And i dont believe hes talking about a linedoubled game.

in this case, not really, no, but the whole focus is on a 2D arcade titles nevertheless.

I wouldn't advise to try a 480i to 480p conversion using this method.

If your monitor can only display 15khz signals, it can still make sense to convert to 240p, even for hi-res titles, but for this you need to do a real conversion (480i to 480p to 240p).

[ZellSF]

You can softmod your PS2 and use GSM to do this, that way you don't have to deal with external hardware. That said, if you play lots of retro games it's hardware you can reuse for other purposes, so it's not a terrible idea.

Okami is a native 480i title, converting it to 240p will end up with significantly worse image quality.

The best image quality you can get from Okami is actually by forcing it to 480p using GSM.

You were already considering putting quite a bit of money on your original plan though, I'd set aside that money for a PS3 and eventually get the PS3 version of Okami.

[BazookaBen]

He is talking about line-doubled games, except for this part:

Second, if your source isn't a linedoubled 240p title, but a true hi-res game, then the resulting image will be 240p, but it will show a certain amount of flicker. Still much better than actually connecting a 480i source directly to your monitor.

And I believe he's wrong here. I don't think mixing two lines with different content makes an image look better. Sure there is some subjectivity when judging picture quality, but there's a reason we interlaced TV's in the first place. It was to add higher detail with lower bandwidth.

Most TV is 30fps or lower. However, on a CRT, you can show anything at progressive 30hz (vertical) without killing everyone's eyes with flicker. It would look like a fluorescent bulb that is about to blow.

So what they did was split the 30 frames into 60 interlaced frames, that way light is hitting the eye more fequently and we are less likely to notice flicker.

[Charleaux330]

I appreciate the input fudoh, but im still confused cause it doesnt seem like you addressed the Issue. I want to convert 480i ps2 to 240p using a extron rgb interface. Would okami and original 480i games benefit from this?

[BazookaBen]

If your monitor can only display 15khz signals, it can still make sense to convert to 240p, even for hi-res titles, but for this you need to do a real conversion (480i to 480p to 240p).

It won't be as bad, but I still think it would be ugly, because you're changing the original intended position of the lines. They were original meant to be displayed between each other, offset by 1/60th of a second, but now they're displayed one top of each other, offset by the same amount of time. I've never tried this but I feel like it could even make the picture jittery.

[Fudoh]

Would okami and original 480i games benefit from this?

no, but not because of the loss of detail (which you might prefer over the interlacing), but because you introduce a high amount of flicker due to the misalignment of the lines. You display lines of pixels on same scanline that are supposed to be displayed on adjacent lines instead.

but I feel like it could even make the picture jittery.

it does.

[Charleaux330]

Ah ok fudoh i see. Glassjoe was saying a similar thing, but i just wasnt getting it.

So you were saying upconvert to 480p then down to 240p using a rgb interface AND VSC or just the rgb interdace? Would this be worth it? And how do you convert that 480i signal to 480p? An upscaler would introduce lag i believe right?

This is getting pretty messy now

[BazookaBen]

Charleaux330, I'll give you an example of PS2 game that benefits from an Extron RGB: Street Fighter Anniversary Collection.

In arcades, SF2 and SF3 were 240p, but in the collection on PS2 they run at 480i (Capcom screwed up). So it kinda looks like a 240p image that is moving up and down by a millimeter 60 times a second, very flickery. Extron RGB fixes it by making the lines land in the same spot, like they originally did in the arcades.

The best image quality you can get from Okami is actually by forcing it to 480p using GSM.

Since it is a 30fps game it's not super important to play in 480p, as you're not missing any detail in the image at 480i. You do get reduced flicker though. But if your PVM has better color than your 480p-capable display, you might want to go for the PVM. At least that is what I'm doing with Pikmin 2 at the moment.

[Charleaux330]

Thanks for the info.

Edit: im a little relieved knowing i dont have to buy anymore equipment.

[BazookaBen]

And just sit back and enjoy the scenery. Okami was an ambitious game for it's time, it does some neat stuff graphically. They definitely played to the strengths of the 480i format.

...the game itself is a little slow, however. I got bored and never finished it. Maybe one day.

[Xan]

I found it a bit boring near the end because there isn't much variation in terms of gameplay and all the boss fights are the same as well IIRC. Definitely nice as far as style goes though.

[donluca]

Maybe he just wants to get scanlines on 480i material, regardless of the original resolution.

Although Outrun 2 is a 480 lines native title I prefer it running at 240p scanlined.

Personal preferences I guess.

[Grimakis]

Guys, I love the technical discussions on this forum. I've learned so much about video signals in the last two months. Now I'm always checking the input on my Framemeister to see what resolution I am running at. The framerate, color space. Very interesting to know each game and console behaves differently.

Regards,
George