Fudoh's ode to old display technology

[julencin2000]

To the people having trouble finding RGB input cards for their JVC monitors. Panasonic sold rebranded monitors that used the same cards but with a Panasonic model number. Try searching for BT-YA702P for the Panasonic RGB card and BT-YA701P if you need the composite/S-Video input card. I own a JVC DT-V1710CG which came empty with no inputs. I bought both Panasonic cards for it and both fit and at least the composite/S-Video card works, I didn't get a chance to try the RGB one yet.

Thanks for the tip, Sarge

[mnneurope]

do u ppl see scanlines everywhere?

[tacoguy64]

Now that my syncForge has arrived, I am able to play 240p games on my beast of a tv the necXP 37 plus.

This thing can handle multiple resolutions from 320×240 to all the way up to 1280x1024 @ 60hz,75hz,85hz, has a dot pitch of .85mm and has so many inputs. And the speakers that come built in are pretty decent themselves.

I havent really done much tweaking yet and intend to run the 240p suite later on but I think the picture quality looks quite nice. I used my galaxy s4 for all pictures. Some were a bit blurry and the lighting probably wasnt best but i think they all came out nice...

http://imgur.com/4WVLPcT,XAP6wWU,ZZTaKK ... ,ODs803T#0

Gradius 3
http://i.imgur.com/4WVLPcT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ODs803T.jpg

SMW
http://i.imgur.com/XAP6wWU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ZZTaKK2.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Z3KPUzv.jpg

SM3
http://i.imgur.com/qZsQ9jt.jpg

Castle of Illusion
http://i.imgur.com/HW0CVVZ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/znEfugQ.jpg

Aladdin
http://i.imgur.com/RrvMH7z.jpg

Lion King
http://i.imgur.com/AQrxV8n.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/JPPa7w0.jpg

Truxton
http://i.imgur.com/3kBqPsM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/cZZITTa.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/sKrIYUN.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/v9gfjMN.jpg

Sonic 2
http://i.imgur.com/wsrmEY8.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/WtPNXXx.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/YkB1C7U.jpg

X-men
http://i.imgur.com/uDhskgP.jpg

Street Fighter 2
http://i.imgur.com/8uABTIk.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/xDy5oKa.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/BJjGYfd.jpg

I don't really have a lot of games but the few I have and tested out with the monitor I was left with a good impression. There wasnt I single game I had that I didnt think would look better than my xrgb mini. I feel that they are very comparable in terms of image quality. As far as what i prefer? Well they are both amazing piece of technology and both have their pros and cons but to me, it just feels more right on the XP37.

[Saturngamer81]

Is there any picture quality difference between the BVM 20G1u and 20F1u models? I know there is a line difference, 800 lines G 900 lines F.

[Mishrak109]

The line difference would be a difference in picture quality yes. Although at that point, you might not notice it.

[Einzelherz]

PVM question: I picked up a 14L5 today (it's beautiful, yay) and the case looks practically unused, save for scratches. I'm trying to dig up its runtime hour count but can't seem to find it anywhere. I did find a secret menu (from neogaf) that had a lot of fine tune settings as well as something for geometry (too scared to mess with any of that) but no sign of an hour timer.

Thanks in advance.

[Ed Oscuro]

There's no hour count menu on the L5 series.

[Skips]

PVM question: I picked up a 14L5 today (it's beautiful, yay) and the case looks practically unused, save for scratches. I'm trying to dig up its runtime hour count but can't seem to find it anywhere. I did find a secret menu (from neogaf) that had a lot of fine tune settings as well as something for geometry (too scared to mess with any of that) but no sign of an hour timer.

Thanks in advance.

Only the BVM's (at least the models after 1998) have hours listed, the PVM's do not.

[Einzelherz]

Can anyone explain the super fine and hi scan trinitron wegas to me? Wikipedia shows them as having a 1080i resolution, but does that mean they have a high TVL like these BVMs and PVMs?

[Ed Oscuro]

I don't think you'll find an exact number: Sony didn't advertise a TVL equivalent for consumer televisions, except perhaps in the exceedingly rare case(s?) where a consumer-purchaseable set was really a PVM. Apparently some of the tube types were common across other lines and the TVL specs can be figured out, but you would have to go from tube to tube in order to work out a likely number. Of course this isn't necessary.

In general terms it's pretty clear from the article - the physical resolution table shows Super Fine Pitch at 1440x1080i and Hi-Scan at 853x1080i. These sets have to drive 540 horizontal lines (i.e., vertical resolution) across the screen every 1/60th of a second (double what a 480i-only tube does), so they are definitely higher resolution than 480i PVM and BVM tubes in that regard. TVL is the other measure, defining how many black and white stripes running up and down the screen would be distinguishable (horizontal resolution) - the same as stating how many well-defined pixels can sit next to each other on a horizontal line in the center of the screen. Whether SFP and Hi-Scan hardware is able to fit exactly 1440 or 853 alternating dots for the TVL spec is questionable, but they should be close to that number, close enough that the pixels will be exceedingly well defined for 480i or 480p sources. The tubes' TVL could measure somewhat higher or lower, but certainly with the 1440x1080i Super Fine Pitch you would have an exceedingly sharp picture for a consumer CRT TV.

Of course this doesn't mean that such sets will be ideal for classic gaming. High TVL is simply a solution to specific requirements (HD footage, footage from industrial or medical cameras, computer graphics workstations, and the like). If you are interested in classic video games, regular 480i WEGA units are a better bet for compatibility, and even then in many late 480i sets the scanlines are already exceptionally clearly defined, to the point that many people don't prefer them for classic game sources. It's only when you get into the 480p and later eras that TVL is important. Even then, I wouldn't be sure that 1440x1080i would be the first choice for 1080p era sources, due to it only being half resolution (540 lines every 1/60th second, instead of the full 1080 of 1080p) and the horizontal resolution is also far too small. Additionally, some of the Hi Scan and SFP televisions might do weird things that make them less desirable for 480i gaming, like filtering or buffering images.

[Fudoh]

so they are definitely higher resolution than 480i PVM and BVM tubes in that regard

BVM tubes easily do 720 lines vertically. After all the FW900 uses the same tube as the 24" BVM D/A series, and they have no problem displaying 1440p or even higher.

For consumer sets I would assume a 1:1 square TVL rating, so about 500 TVL max for a 1080i set.

[Ed Oscuro]

so they are definitely higher resolution than 480i PVM and BVM tubes in that regard

BVM tubes easily do 720 lines vertically. After all the FW900 uses the same tube as the 24" BVM D/A series, and they have no problem displaying 1440p or even higher.

That's true, but the question mentioned TVL, and that's not exactly interchangeable with resolution. That's only multiformat monitors using the tube's capability to actually display higher resolution than 480i; there's no way a 15KHz set is going to resolve 720 lines vertically, though I agree it can be sharper in definition due to the better tube even with a 480i signal. For a 480i BVM or PVM, which is what I was talking about, the 1080i TV is going to display a higher resolution (i.e., 480p, 1080i, 720p), regardless of its TVL spec.

I see I made a mistake in forgetting that the question was originally in reference to a PVM 14L5, though. That's a good example of a set that supports high resolutions up to 45KHz, but its 600 TVL spec means the actual clarity won't be as good as the 20" version.

For consumer sets I would assume a 1:1 square TVL rating, so about 500 TVL max for a 1080i set.

For what the question refers to (and I don't know the source, it's not given), the list states SFP and Hi-Scan are listed with 1440 and 853 lines "physical resolution (aperture grille)." To display HD resolutions, a SFP tube-equipped TV is going to have to have a much higher TVL spec than 500.

Did they really lie that badly?

[Einzelherz]

Well I didn't specifically question in comparison to my 14L5 (still waiting on my BNC adapters ) but I referenced TVL because to me, at least, that seems like a characteristic of possible sharpness. From my limited exposure to the PVM it also seems like it might have to do with smoothness of scrolling.

You were right on the link I was referencing, Ed. Essentially I'm trying to figure out ahead of time what hierarchy I should look for if I decide to part with my 27" Philips (first purchase after my first "adult" job, which makes it more emotional than logical). We have a nice supply of CRTs around here, though I don't really want anything larger than 27", but I'd like to be prepared should something specific pop up. Maybe I'll stumble onto a 20L5 one day and satisfy this craving

[Fudoh]

Did they really lie that badly?

they certainly did. Your average 15khz set will gladly display a 720x480i signal, but still not exceed 300 TVL and thus not fully resolve a good SD signal. 500+ TVL on 1080i sets seems realistic. A 550 TVL tube is able to resolve nearly 1000 pixels of horizontal resolution. For a 1080i signal on a tube, that's quite impressive already.

That's true, but the question mentioned TVL, and that's not exactly interchangeable with resolution.

but TVL is a tube-specific rating, while the question of supported resolutions comes down to the chassis. A 20" 15khz-only BVM uses the SAME tube as a 720p and 1080i capable 20" BVM-D or A model.

[Ed Oscuro]

Well, you're not disagreeing with me in any of that, except I can't believe this TVL business. I don't believe you will get anything much better than a gray blur if you alternate 500 black lines and 500 white lines across a field which doesn't separate more than about 550 TV lines. It wouldn't be that bad with "real" content, sure. If we were using a standard like lp/mm as used in the photographic world, then a 550 line pairs standard would make perfect sense here. But I don't see how there can be any detail separation when every two lines are slotted into roughly the same aperture grille spot, unless the TVL spec really is much higher than the rating suggests.

In any case, it seems fair to believe that most good, especially larger, later monitors and televisions will more than adequately resolve any 480i signal from a classic console. 720x480i is indeed problematic for the average 15Khz tube, but Super Fine Pitch and Hi-Scan - and even later 480i-only WEGA in at least the slightly larger sizes - are clearly resolving more than 300TVL. I wouldn't say my KV-27FS120 does 650 lines, but I'm fairly sure it's closer to that than 300. But maybe I should break out the test charts before saying more

I don't want to crowd out the major takeaway from all this - Wikipedia says that Super Fine Pitch is 1440x1080i, but there's no specific reason to believe Super Fine Pitch is that good. It's better than some other sets (Sony advertised "65% more" aperture grille lines) but I expect the resolution refers to what resolutions the tube accepts and will attempt to display, and is not at all a guarantee that image will hold up next to a better tube or any modern 1080p LCD (or 720p for that matter).

[Fudoh]

I don't believe you will get anything much better than a gray blur if you alternate 500 black lines and 500 white lines across a field which doesn't separate more than about 550 TV lines.

sure - - 500 TVL are actually 250 black lines and 250 white lines over the inner square area of a tube.

than 300TVL. I wouldn't say my KV-27FS120 does 650 lines, but I'm fairly sure it's closer to that than 300. But maybe I should break out the test charts before saying more

remember to factor in the aspect ratio. On a 16:9 tube with 650 TVL you're looking at roughly 1150 pixels true resolution - or a test pattern with 575 black vertical lines and 575 white vertical lines. That's heavy stuff for a consumer set.

The whole TVL debate is completely overrated anyway. I think we concluded a thousand postings back that the higher TVL rated tubes aren't as "appreciated" for classic video game content anyway.

[Ed Oscuro]

Interesting, I always assumed that it was just edge-to-edge from the center. Looking at the sources again I see that's not the case. That explains a good deal and makes the TVL look much better in comparison - for any 16:9 tube, my assumption was that displays were roughly half (9/16) as good as they actually are indicated. I imagine they measured this way to combat narrowed edges of the tube.

[Einzelherz]

Finally got my BNC to RCA adapters. Hooked up the Wii to check the color calibration and overscans for 480i and 480p (14L5) using the 240p test suite. Then I plugged in my Dreamcast -> Scart -> CSY-2100 clone and I'm having sync or something issues. If green is the only cable plugged in I get an excessively white synced B&W screen. Adding blue or red gives a slight tint to the screen of the respective color but introduces a lot of tearing that looks like the sync is falling apart. When both are plugged in the screen flips out and starts switching its resolutions (I can hear it clicking) and the screen just goes to black with some horizontal white lines.

I tried it with another CSY and my SNES instead of the DC and it acts identically in all scenarios. I'm completely clueless.

And another thing I don't understand: I used the overscan grid to get the red border squares to fit nicely on 240p, 480i, and 480p but then, using the PS2 and Wii, whenever I play a game the top and bottom have black bars on the top and bottom.

Edit: Ok so I solved the strange sync problem. The BNC-RCA adapters are causing it on the open OUT lines. If I unplug them or plug in another display, the sync corrects itself. But this is only with the converter.

And now a new strangeness. My Wii's 480i red/white grid doesn't match the Dreamcast's 480i red/white grid.

[tacoguy64]

To the people having trouble finding RGB input cards for their JVC monitors. Panasonic sold rebranded monitors that used the same cards but with a Panasonic model number. Try searching for BT-YA702P for the Panasonic RGB card and BT-YA701P if you need the composite/S-Video input card. I own a JVC DT-V1710CG which came empty with no inputs. I bought both Panasonic cards for it and both fit and at least the composite/S-Video card works, I didn't get a chance to try the RGB one yet.

Hey sarge,

Can you tell me where you found these input cards? I'm having trouble finding it. Oh and did you get the chance to test for rgb yet?

[Xan]

And now a new strangeness. My Wii's 480i red/white grid doesn't match the Dreamcast's 480i red/white grid.

The DC outputs a regular 720x480 signal, but only uses the inner 640x480 area I believe. Generally there are variations between consoles so obviously one setting won't match all systems. On PVMs it's possible to use the underscan option as a second profile though.

[Einzelherz]

And now a new strangeness. My Wii's 480i red/white grid doesn't match the Dreamcast's 480i red/white grid.

The DC outputs a regular 720x480 signal, but only uses the inner 640x480 area I believe. Generally there are variations between consoles so obviously one setting won't match all systems. On PVMs it's possible to use the underscan option as a second profile though.

I've noticed that even on a game by game basis on the same system the overscan is sometimes hugely different. SMB3, for instance has a huge gap on the left, but nothing on the right.

Are regular TVs better at filling up the screen or are they identical? I don't seem to remember my old TVs having significant overscan differences, but I'm not sure I would have noticed either.

My CSY clone is also introducing a lot of interference it seems. It looks like when you would see video footage of a PC monitor where you can see the refreshing waves.

Did a lag check though and my Plasma is only 2-3 frames behind the PVM. That makes me happy, at least.

[Ed Oscuro]

Are regular TVs better at filling up the screen or are they identical? I don't seem to remember my old TVs having significant overscan differences,

Regular TVs aren't adjusting overscan on the fly. Your memory of no significant differences is probably due to the fact that consumer TVs are typically set with huge amounts of overscan (lots of the picture is cut out) and console games accounted for this. People weren't usually calibrating them anyway, so how would they notice a few percentage points of difference? If you put the same tools to work on a regular TV, you'll see the exact same issues.

[Sgt.Wafer]

Hey sarge,

Can you tell me where you found these input cards? I'm having trouble finding it. Oh and did you get the chance to test for rgb yet?

I bought both from the same eBay seller. and I am waiting for some cables to arrive before I can test the RGB input.

[geekmiki]

Back to my RGB misadventures on a JVC TM-H150CG...
I finally got the RGB input card and the Scart to BNC cable (without LM1881 sync stripper) from RetroGamingCables.

And the results are not as expected:

SNES:


MD:


I've tried to look into the menu, but there doesn't seem to be any RGB related configuration items.
Where to go from here? Is this sync stripper related? Should I get the other cable?

Thank you in advance!

[Pasky]

It's missing green it seems.

[tacoguy64]

geekmiki: I have the same problem with my Genesis SCART cable except it's the red that just drops in and out. Sometimes it will display the color, other times just no red. Like pasky said, you are missing green and will need to have your cable repaired.

[geekmiki]

It's missing green it seems.

geekmiki: I have the same problem with my Genesis SCART cable except it's the red that just drops in and out. Sometimes it will display the color, other times just no red. Like pasky said, you are missing green and will need to have your cable repaired.

Ok, so the problem doesn't seem to come from the cables, I tested them all for continuity and all the pins seem to be ok.

EDIT: tested connecting/disconnecting the green cable and there is indeed a change in colors.
The picture is overall very dark and there seem to be random, short losses of sync, especially visible with the PCE Duo RX and Saturn.
Could the input card be faulty or this a cable/setup problem?
With S-Video the picture is sharp and clear.

[Fudoh]

Could be a termination problem. Does the RGB card for the JVC have loop outputs ?

Reminds of the problem when using a PAL SNES cable on a NTSC unit or vice versa. Here the capacitor configuration is the problem.

[geekmiki]

Could be a termination problem. Does the RGB card for the JVC have loop outputs ?

Reminds of the problem when using a PAL SNES cable on a NTSC unit or vice versa. Here the capacitor configuration is the problem.

Here's what the manual says:
The IN and OUT terminals are bridge-connected (auto termination)

So I guess it's loop outputs.
When you say capacitor, you mean on the input card? If I have the right values I guess I could change it.

[Fudoh]

When you say capacitor, you mean on the input card?

no, usually on the RGB cables (in the RGB lines).

But it's still weird if the loop outputs are auto terminated. It should be fine. Just to make sure, everything's set correctly ? The standard setting for the board is certainly YPbPr and not RGB.