New AV Amp Now Getting HDCP Warning When trying to Capture!?

[lettuce]

I have had a Sony STR-DH800 amp for the last 5 years and never had an issue with HDCP when capturing form consoles (apart for PS3), i today got the Pioneer VSX-924 AV Amp as it has dual HDMI out sockets and more HDMI In sockets than my old Sony amp. I currently have the amp setup so HDMI Out 1 goes to my LCD TV and HDMI Out 2 goes to my Micomsoft XCAPTURE-1 USB 3.0 capture device (which is attached to my PC). But when i load up AmaRec capture software im getting the HDCP logo on the screen from my XBOX 360 and XBOX ONE consoles (the xbox 360 never even had HDCP protection!!!), im even get the HDCP logo when just having HDMI Out 1 connected to the Micomsoft XCAPTURE-1 and nothing attached to HDMI Out 2!!

Surely this cant be a limitation of the Pioneer?, this was the main reason i bought the amp for its dual HDMI Out sockets but if i cant even use my capture device when just using the main HDMI out socket then the amp is completely useless to me!. My last 2 amps used to work fine with capture devices and never got any issues with HDCP.

Is there any settings i need to enable or disable to bypass this HDCP protection?

[Fudoh]

I could imagine that Pioneer still enforces HDCP on all HDMI outputs.

I don't have a Pioneer amp, but I have a Pioneer DVD recorder (which I use for its comb filter). You input composite (or anything else), and you get a HDCP encrypted HDMI output - no way around that. The only way to get rid of HDCP is to use an external stripper device.

[lettuce]

I could imagine that Pioneer still enforces HDCP on all HDMI outputs.

I don't have a Pioneer amp, but I have a Pioneer DVD recorder (which I use for its comb filter). You input composite (or anything else), and you get a HDCP encrypted HDMI output - no way around that. The only way to get rid of HDCP is to use an external stripper device.

Your kidding, so my 5 year old Sony amp allows for HDCP on HDMI yet this 2014 Pioneer amp does not? If thats the case im sending it back as its no good to me otherwise. So if im looking for another amp what do i need to be checking for? Any ideas if the DENON AVRX2100 would have the same issue?

[CkRtech]

Pioneer VSX-924 AV

HDCP discussion aside, what firmware are you running? Is it 1-247-005-010-116? Pioneer's site has that firmware for download and says in <ahem> perfect English:

CHANGE HISTORY FOR VSX-924
Ver 1-247-005-010-116

No HDZONE sound is output.
Improve the stability of HDMI connection.
Other improvement.

Pretty vague, but worth a shot.

[Fudoh]

Your kidding, so my 5 year old Sony amp allows for HDCP on HDMI yet this 2014 Pioneer amp does not?

The Pioneer is fully HDCP compliant. It just does a little too much. It likely adds HDCP to all HDMI output signals, no matter if your original signal has HDCP (like the PS3) or not (like the 360).

So what you actually have to find out is wether another AVR like the Denon will output unencrypted HDMI as long as your source doesn't have encryption. Just encrypting everything might just be easier for the manufacturers.

[lettuce]

But I thought according to HDMI standards It is mandatory, at no time can an HDCP encrypted signal be exposed externally decrypted, so I should of got the same issue with my old Sony amp no?

Also I'll have a look what FW the amp has, thanks

[system11]

The Sony was doing the right thing and sending HDCP where required, the Pioneer is being lazy and putting HDCP on whether the source signal is infected with it or not.

[Unseen]

The Pioneer is fully HDCP compliant. It just does a little too much. It likely adds HDCP to all HDMI output signals, no matter if your original signal has HDCP (like the PS3) or not (like the 360).

Some statements in the manual (*) seem to confirm that theory. On page 23 (english version) there is a note that the reciver can only be connected to DVI devices if that device also supports HDCP and that connecting it to a non-HDCP device should result in an error message on the front panel.

(*) Thanks for restricting that PDF, Pioneer! Who would want to copy-and-paste text from a manual anyway?

[lettuce]

Damn if that Is the Case then I'm sending the Pioneer back as it's as much use as a chocolate tea pot. Guess ill look at the Denon x2100w then hope that isn't as stupid as the Pioneer

I'm just trying to think of an option in the settings that could be causing this issue, maybe in the hdmi control settings or something as this just seems holly stupid on Pioneer's part

[BuckoA51]

Nothing made from chocolate is ever useless.

[Fudoh]

why don't just you add a $30 stripper to the HDMI port running into your capture box and forget about it?

[lettuce]

Well id rather not have to buy/use another device that will use another power source to do something this amp should automatically do itself. I'll send it back and try the Denon as said my old Sony never had an issue at all

Hmm seems like the Denon might be ok, i picked these from the manual....

"In order to play back digital video and audio such as BD video or DVD video via HDMI connection, both this unit and the TV or player must to support the copyright protection system known as HDCP (Highbandwidth Digital Content Protection System). HDCP is copyright
protection technology comprised of data encryption and authentication of the connected AV devices. This unit supports HDCP. If a device that does not support HDCP is connected, video and audio are not output correctly. Read the owner’s manual of your television or
player for more information."

"No Picture - Check whether the TV is compatible with copyright protection (HDCP). If connected to a device not
compatible with HDCP, video will not be output correctly."

[Fudoh]

Sounds more like your Pioneer than your Sony, doesn't it ?

[lettuce]

Sounds more like your Pioneer than your Sony, doesn't it ?

What do you mean?

[lettuce]

The Pioneer is fully HDCP compliant. It just does a little too much. It likely adds HDCP to all HDMI output signals, no matter if your original signal has HDCP (like the PS3) or not (like the 360).

Some statements in the manual (*) seem to confirm that theory. On page 23 (english version) there is a note that the reciver can only be connected to DVI devices if that device also supports HDCP and that connecting it to a non-HDCP device should result in an error message on the front panel.

(*) Thanks for restricting that PDF, Pioneer! Who would want to copy-and-paste text from a manual anyway?

This is the odd thing i dont get the HDCP Error message on the front panel of the amp only on the AmaRec capture window

[Fudoh]

This is the odd thing i dont get the HDCP Error message on the front panel of the amp

you probably only get this when a source disables the stream for missing HDCP, so for example with a PS3.

[Fudoh]

What do you mean?

your quote from the Denon manual. What makes you think that it performs differently from your Pioneer ?

[CkRtech]

Out of curiosity, if you fire up your capture software for the Xcapture-1 with other devices turned off and then power up your receiver, what does the capture software display? (No Xbox 360/One powered up, but input selected on your receiver)

Do you still get the HDCP message at that point?

[lettuce]

What do you mean?

your quote from the Denon manual. What makes you think that it performs differently from your Pioneer ?

Yeah this is a risk i know. This problem didnt even occur to me when i was looking for a new amp as it was never an issue with my old amp, i didnt ever think an amp would block all devices on hdmi without checking to see if the device is HDCP compliant

Out of curiosity, if you fire up your capture software for the Xcapture-1 with other devices turned off and then power up your receiver, what does the capture software display? (No Xbox 360/One powered up, but input selected on your receiver)

Do you still get the HDCP message at that point?

With just the amp powered on and all other devices turned off (XBOX, Wii U, XB1) when i fire up AmaRec it still displays the HDCP logo on screen

[Unseen]

Hmm seems like the Denon might be ok, i picked these from the manual....

I did a few quick tests with my Marantz SR6008 (basically the same company as Denon nowadays, very similar hardware and as far as I know the same software) and the result was... inconclusive. Sometimes it activated HDCP with an unencrypted source, sometimes it did not. Switching HDMI passthrough on and off in the input menu of the AVR seemed to convince it to turn off HDCP on the output, but I'm not sure why it was on in the first place.

Test setup: PS4 (HDCP disabled) into the AVR, primary output into the HDMI input of an XRGB Mini, checked input HDCP state using the "Full status" menu of the Mini

[lettuce]

Hmm seems like the Denon might be ok, i picked these from the manual....

I did a few quick tests with my Marantz SR6008 (basically the same company as Denon nowadays, very similar hardware and as far as I know the same software) and the result was... inconclusive. Sometimes it activated HDCP with an unencrypted source, sometimes it did not. Switching HDMI passthrough on and off in the input menu of the AVR seemed to convince it to turn off HDCP on the output, but I'm not sure why it was on in the first place.

Test setup: PS4 (HDCP disabled) into the AVR, primary output into the HDMI input of an XRGB Mini, checked input HDCP state using the "Full status" menu of the Mini

Thanks for testing, form your results guess i should steer clear of the Denon as well then!?. Maybe only Sony AVR's are one of the few that actual treat HDCP correctly. I may looking at the Sony STR-DN1050 then at this rate, has 3 HDMI outs (seems odd) but scarifies 1 HDMI input from last years model (DN1040) from 6 to 5. Still not sure why the amp reports HDCP even when there are no devices turn on (apart from the amp itself) and the capture device isnt even capturing anything!?

I did actually find my HDMI 2x1 switcher that strips HDCP (thought i sold it) and that method does indeed work, i just wanted a clean 1 device setup but looks like thats not going to happen. Would a USB Port to 5.5mm cable be ok to power the hdmi stripper, somthing like this....



The PSU with the HDMI stripper is rated 5v 1a, im thinking i can just hook that up to one of the two USB sockets on the amp and power the HDMI stripper from the amp itself rather than needing another wall socket and adapter to power the HDMI stripper?

[Fudoh]

A few years ago HDCP became mandatory even for upscaled SD movie content. That's one reason why analogue component outputs disappeared from BD players. Maybe Pioneer is just enforcing an updated guideline.

That USB power cable should certainly work.

[CkRtech]

Don't buy a receiver based on how it treats HDCP. Buy it on sound quality. If you need to worry about stripping HDCP, use a separate, external device.

Devices are definitely stepping up their game with the addition of HDCP 2.2 and the continued (practically pointless?) struggle to lock down digital recording. Who knows - maybe the XCAPTURE had its key revoked (if that is even how that sort of thing operates)?

As I understand it, devices push their HDCP-ed signal to the display, the key exchange/authentication happens, and the signal can be displayed. If you add a repeater (ex: a receiver), then the receiver has to authenticate with the player, has the freedom to add to the signal/do signal processing/etc, and then has to re-encrypt (or whatever the term is) with HDCP prior to pushing it out to the display.

It could be that current standards call for a receiver that can take HDCP (which...they all should, otherwise they are mostly useless) to always HDCP-ize their output. Perhaps it makes more sense for the manufacturers to just simply add HDCP on output in order to wave all responsibility - regardless of if the input signal has HDCP or not.

Dual output has also been known to cause issues because the same key can't be used for two simultaneous outputs (or something like that). It could also be that this very thing is what is causing the "issue" on your receiver. Who knows?

I suppose you could try to disable dual output (if that is even an option) to see if that alters HDCP-handling (i.e. disables the extra work the receiver does). Obviously, that removes a function that you want...but it might help explain things.

Apologies for my vagueness on how HDCP works. I haven't really read that much about it until I started skimming the net after you started this thread.

[lettuce]

A few years ago HDCP became mandatory even for upscaled SD movie content. That's one reason why analogue component outputs disappeared from BD players. Maybe Pioneer is just enforcing an updated guideline.

That USB power cable should certainly work.

So your saying that all modern untis (last 2-3 years or so) will more or less have the same issue. My old Sony STR-DH800 was launched in 2010 would this have put it outside these new HDCP regs?

[lettuce]

Dual output has also been known to cause issues because the same key can't be used for two simultaneous outputs (or something like that). It could also be that this very thing is what is causing the "issue" on your receiver. Who knows?

I suppose you could try to disable dual output (if that is even an option) to see if that alters HDCP-handling (i.e. disables the extra work the receiver does). Obviously, that removes a function that you want...but it might help explain things.

Apologies for my vagueness on how HDCP works. I haven't really read that much about it until I started skimming the net after you started this thread.

That was one of the first things i tried, disabling the dual output and only had output 1 enabled didnt help at all, i attached output 1 straight to the xcapture device and still was HDCP locked. The odd thing is its even HDCP locked when the amp it just turned on and no other devices, for example i cant even get the OSD menu of the amp to appear as that HDCP lcoked down as well.

By the sounds of it ever amp will have similar issues in 2015, im guessing my Sony STR-DH800 which was released in 2010 was just outside these new HDCP regs being enforced!?

Thanks for helping me understand this mess a bit more

[Unseen]

Thanks for testing, form your results guess i should steer clear of the Denon as well then!?.

Maybe yes, maybe no. I'm not sure why the AVR decided to encrypt an unencrypted signal, maybe it is an attempt to reduce the time needed for (re)establishing the link between the AVR and TV by keeping the signal "looking similar" all the time - when I booted the PS4, it was still configured with HDCP on and turning it off on the PS4 didn't turn it off on the AVR's output.

Maybe only Sony AVR's are one of the few that actual treat HDCP correctly.

Technically there is nothing wrong with encrypting a signal that was received unencrypted, the only thing that is disallowed is decrypting an encrypted input.

Would a USB Port to 5.5mm cable be ok to power the hdmi stripper, somthing like this....

I don't know the details about your HDMI stripper, but I use a cable like this for my 2-port HDMI splitter and didn't have any problems with it yet.

[lettuce]

Ok new issue now, when im using the View HD 1x2 Spliter (to strip the HDCP) im not getting any audio from the XB1 console. If i plug the HDMI spliter directly into the XB1 (XB1>Spliter>capture device) then i get audio from my capture software but if i run the spliter in tandem with the Pioneer amp (XB1>amp>spliter>capture device) then i get no audio.

Can anyone thing of any reason why the pioneer would now be blocking the audio

[Fudoh]

Most certainly because your amp does accept a lot more codecs and audio formats than your capture card does and the XBOne likely just acts according to the EDID it reads. AVRs like yours are made to override the target EDID settings. Makes sense since you want HD audio at the AVR, but not on your TV which is fed by the AVR.

You should be able to adjust this on your AVR though. Or just manually limited your XBOne's output to stereo PCM.

[lettuce]

Most certainly because your amp does accept a lot more codecs and audio formats than your capture card does and the XBOne likely just acts according to the EDID it reads. AVRs like yours are made to override the target EDID settings. Makes sense since you want HD audio at the AVR, but not on your TV which is fed by the AVR.

You should be able to adjust this on your AVR though. Or just manually limited your XBOne's output to stereo PCM.

Yeah that the first thing i tried setting the xbox to 'uncompressed stereo' but didnt make a difference. What sort of setting should i be looking for on my AVR?

I was looking at one of these...



http://www.amazon.co.uk/Revesun-Convert ... B00P0WQWW8

strips HDCP and also has a 3.5mm audio jack for stereo out so i should be able to get audio via the 3.5mm jack to 2 Phono and hook that up the 2 Phone sockets on the Xcapture. Or theres this one but its more money...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/ViewHD-HDMI-Spl ... B00L0X2GIU

But ideally i would like to try and get it working with my current stripper device

[Fudoh]

Maybe your AVR resamples stereo to a higher sample rate, 96khz maybe ?