Framemeister + PVM = Good Idea or Impractical?

[Grimakis]

So I had this idea relating to the Framemeister having trouble with switching between 240p and 480i. For some games, navigating menus, choosing characters can be difficult. Do you think it is reasonable to find a PVM with both RGB IN/OUT and S-VIDEO IN/OUT and then daisy chain to the Framemeister? That way when the game switches from 480i to 240p and back, you maintain the image on the PVM.

Does the PVM need to be on in order for the signals to be passed through? I would guess that it does.

Also, has anyone had luck splitting the RGB signals and sending them to both a PVM and the XRGB Mini? This would have the benefits of not needing the PVM on the whole time.

One more semi-related question, but how hard is it to send 15KHz RGB to a VGA Monitor. If I could pick up an old CRT Monitor, that might be way cheaper than a PVM.

Regards,
George

[Ed Oscuro]

If you get a PVM you won't need the Framemeister unless you're keen to use a bigger screen. Yes, passthrough requires the PVM to be on. Passthrough won't alter the signal at all and the Framemeister / your final display device won't benefit at all. In case you think there is some magic conversion being done by the PVM - forget it, it's not so.

PC VGA displays will work - going from RGBs to RGBHV - if you use a scaler like the old XRGB series (DISPL, XRGB, XRGB 2, XRGB 3). Each of these has some strengths (or quirks) and weaknesses.

[Einzelherz]

Semi related question: can you use the pass through to check lag on another display?

[Fudoh]

Semi related question: can you use the pass through to check lag on another display?

sure, still the most solid method.

[Xan]

The XPC-4 apparently doesn't have the slow transition times of the XRGB-mini, so getting that seems like a vastly more reasonable solution than having a PVM running while gaming, but not looking at it 99% of the time (if I understand that idea correctly).

[Ed Oscuro]

The XPC-4 apparently doesn't have the slow transition times of the XRGB-mini

What I read is that it still drops video, just not as long.

[broken harbour]

The XPC-4 apparently doesn't have the slow transition times of the XRGB-mini, so getting that seems like a vastly more reasonable solution than having a PVM running while gaming, but not looking at it 99% of the time (if I understand that idea correctly).

I actually considered getting a second processor that has a much faster handshake, my scart switch has 2 outputs, so I could just run a cable off the 2nd output into another processor and send it to my hdmi switcher.


$$$ though, and really, its not for that many games.

[Grimakis]

The XPC-4 apparently doesn't have the slow transition times of the XRGB-mini, so getting that seems like a vastly more reasonable solution than having a PVM running while gaming, but not looking at it 99% of the time (if I understand that idea correctly).

Yes, you understand the idea correctly. I guess you're right it wouldn't make much sense to have both the PVM and my LCD always running. Let's say my idea is to split the signal to the PVM and the Framemeister. Anyone saying that I wouldn't need the Framemeister if I had the PVM, I understand you, but I have the Framemeister already. Also, we are most likely talking about a 14" PVM

I am used to playing on a 40" LCD, which is equivalent to a 32.8" 4:3 television. So to drop down to a much smaller set would not be possible. At least not for multiplayer games, other people people would be huddled around a small set, sitting on the carpet. As nostalgic as that may be for me, it isn't ideal when other people are around.

I guess I'm wondering if anyone here uses at setup that includes both a PVM and Framemeister+LCD, and if you have found any advantages in doing so? I guess I just want a PVM haha, and I'm trying to justify the purchase by figuring out all the benefits.

[Ed Oscuro]

As you outline it, that 14" PVM is not going to meet your needs. A lot depends on your specific usage case. It's just possible that you might like a larger CRT TV, and use a RGB to component transcoder for that. Or perhaps a rear projection TV could be worthwhile. At a real stretch, there are some very good big monitors / pro displays, but they seem impossible to find or too expensive (Mitsubishi Megaview Pro series, and of course the NEC XM series, and of course the larger "presentation" type PVMs like the 2950qm).

Selling / trading the Framemeister for cash towards an XPC-4 might be worthwhile, but I'm not sure how the XPC-4 stacks up in terms of features. All Micomsoft devices seem to have a slightly different profile from all the others.

@ Einzelherz: Don't see why not.

[Grimakis]

As you outline it, that 14" PVM is not going to meet your needs. A lot depends on your specific usage case. It's just possible that you might like a larger CRT TV, and use a RGB to component transcoder for that. Or perhaps a rear projection TV could be worthwhile. At a real stretch, there are some very good big monitors / pro displays, but they seem impossible to find or too expensive (Mitsubishi Megaview Pro series, and of course the NEC XM series, and of course the larger "presentation" type PVMs like the 2950qm).

Selling / trading the Framemeister for cash towards an XPC-4 might be worthwhile, but I'm not sure how the XPC-4 stacks up in terms of features. All Micomsoft devices seem to have a slightly different profile from all the others.

@ Einzelherz: Don't see why not.

Having a large could very well be the best solution, however I don't have the space for my 40" LCD and a large CRT. I can't get rid of my LCD because I need it for Blurays, TV, and PS4. I'm also adverse to getting rid of the Framemeister, as I just got it. I have found it to be wonderful for the most part. I think I'm probably just going to keep my eyes peeled for a 14" PVM at the right price and snap it up if I have the chance. Then I can worry about how I set it up later. worst case scenario and I have a PVM that I don't use very much. I kind of miss the look of my old Daewoo(very small) CRT, so maybe a small 14" PVM won't be that bad if I only use it occasionally. It can always double as a nice monitor for my Commodore 64.

[noonan2678]

This post is funny as I have a similar thought...

I currently have a 55" Sony X900 with a Mini, then a PVM2950q next to it. I REALLY want them both hooked up at the same time. I started with the PVM and got somewhat fed up with the lack of constancy in the signals, so got the Mini and have most systems up and running. I still have all the cables for the PVM, the SyncStrike, Interface, etc.

Fudoh has been a huge help for sure with some of the settings/decisions. I'm curious if you go for them both...I'd also like to somehow "split" the signal to get them both enabled should I want to view on either screen. I do have the space for both, which is good, but can't think of a way to do this without multiple consoles, which is not really an option.

[Artemio]

Splitting the signal works, I've done this for arcade and consoles.

I've built custom cables for it, in the Arcade case I had to use diodes for the second arcade monitor for stability in the signals. I've also used the splitter to play in the cabinets and record the upscaled signal via a frame meister.

For the consoles I've used pvm->xrgb and a splitter, both with good results.

Keep in mind that depending on the impedance of the devices the signal might loose more or less power, I've measured it with the scope in my setup and it is there, but not really visible for me.

[ociplaC]

Semi related question: can you use the pass through to check lag on another display?

sure, still the most solid method.

Wouldn't a more reliable method be sending the signal through a powered splitter, then outputting it to both displays simultaneously? How much lag would the passthrough theoretically add, in terms of ms?

[Ed Oscuro]

How much lag would the passthrough theoretically add, in terms of ms?

Probably far less than 1ms. Probably essentially zero.

Remember that these units were meant for professional environments where having different displays in sync was common. More to the point, there's no processing going on and the signal doesn't appear to go through any long path to get to the next unit.

A powered splitter is only meant to cure voltage (brightness) drops over distance. Don't know if the PVM output is passive or active.

[noonan2678]

Wouldn't a more reliable method be sending the signal through a powered splitter, then outputting it to both displays simultaneously? How much lag would the passthrough theoretically add, in terms of ms?

What type of splitter are you referring to?

[Ed Oscuro]

Distribution amplifier, SCART switch, there's many names for 'em.

[Skips]

Yes, passthrough requires the PVM to be on.

Did not see this until now but most PVM's/BVM's do not require that they be on to pass a signal through to the out connections (or even plugged in for that matter). I think out of the many different PVM's and other branded commercial grade monitors I have had I only ran into one that needed to be on to do pass-through. I believe it was the 20/14L5? Don't quote me on that exact model though, I can't remember 100% as I have had probably 20 or so different PVM models roll in and out of my possession over the past two years. Even then I think it was the BKM-129X card I tried and not the stock RGB/Component ports.

I actually use the BNC out connections to go to the PEXHDCAP from my BVM. I have had about three different model PVM's since I did this setup and all of them could be off and pass RGB to the PEXHDCAP just fine. The one thing you DO have to be careful with when doing pass-through to devices such as the XRGB mini or capture cards is that they don't always terminate the connection correctly (usually they don't terminate sync in a way the PVM/BVM requires) which results in wonky color or sync issues. Just be aware you may need to solder 75 ohm resistors in your out cable between the RGB and or sync line and ground to give the monitor the proper 75 Ohm. Usually PVM's don't give a shit but a BVM tends to require this (but not always).

So in short, the PVM needing to be on is a rare case and depends on the model. More models than not don't need to be on to do this.

[Ed Oscuro]

That's interesting. Of course, the PVM will need to be on for it to be useful if there's a signal drop on the Framemeister, due to the warm-up period, so there's still not a free lunch here.

[Grimakis]

That's interesting. Of course, the PVM will need to be on for it to be useful if there's a signal drop on the Framemeister, due to the warm-up period, so there's still not a free lunch here.

But I disagree. Generally speaking, you will know which games are resolution switching. So if you are about to play one of those games, you turn the PVM on. If you aren't, leave it off. In fact, you can play on the PVM and not the Framemeister, if you want.

The more I think about this, the more appealing it sounds. You can use one, the other, or both. This will mitigate both resolution switching, AND the ability to play light gun games. All without needing to switch inputs.

[Skips]

That's interesting. Of course, the PVM will need to be on for it to be useful if there's a signal drop on the Framemeister, due to the warm-up period, so there's still not a free lunch here.

*edit*

Misread what you posted. I think he intends to just play those games on the PVM in the firstplace and not even bother with the XRGB.

[Skips]

That's interesting. Of course, the PVM will need to be on for it to be useful if there's a signal drop on the Framemeister, due to the warm-up period, so there's still not a free lunch here.

But I disagree. Generally speaking, you will know which games are resolution switching. So if you are about to play one of those games, you turn the PVM on. If you aren't, leave it off. In fact, you can play on the PVM and not the Framemeister, if you want.

The more I think about this, the more appealing it sounds. You can use one, the other, or both. This will mitigate both resolution switching, AND the ability to play light gun games. All without needing to switch inputs.

Daisy chaining the monitors/devices is a nice way of doing it. Although I don't use it for what you do I do use it to link devices together so I do not need any sort of amps. It allows me to play on the CRT lag free while I record with the PEXHDCAP. It also allows me to link monitors I am currently working on without having to plug crap into it directly. If you were looking at getting an commercial grade CRT anyway its definitely a good way to go. I used to have a PVM connected to an XRGB. It worked great.

If you do go BVM instead of PVM though just remember you may need to 75 ohm terminate (solder a 75 ohm resistor between sync and ground) your cable's sync line yourself. The BVM's are super picky about termination and it its not terminated correctly on the XRGB side it will give sync issues.

[Ed Oscuro]

If you aren't, leave it off. In fact, you can play on the PVM and not the Framemeister, if you want.

The difficulty here will be that next to even a moderately-sized LCD screen, the PVM is going to be comparatively tiny and pushed out of the way. Juggling viewing distances would be an issue for me even with a 20" PVM. If you bring the PVM close enough to view comfortably at the same time a main TV you'll probably want to use a long HDMI cable so that the XRGB controls are right with the PVM and the console. One way to set things up would be a swivel chair and an L-shaped table (or a little cart to the side of the main TV's table, with the PVM / XRGB / console piled on.

Personally I prefer having the two devices separate - not a fan of having devices hooked up to the mains when not in use. Of course that isn't so workable if you only have one of a console or only one space to set everything up.

[Skips]

This is what my setup looked like a month or two ago (no longer have the genesis or FDS hooked up). Just kinda showing this to show how I have things setup. I went the condensed and unified route with all my fun stuff (PC, consoles, and CRT all in one area).



I had a 40 inch HDTV in place of that monitor before going to a 27 inch monitor. You can sit fairly close to one, although a large HDTV up that close looks kinda meh looking and as you get older begins to hurt the eyes at that distance. Personally I would not sit more than a couple feet away from a 14 inch CRT and maybe four feet away from a 20 Incher. Any farther than that on those two sizes makes the monitor look tiny and difficult to play on. Anyway figured I'd share my setup since I do have daisy chained devices.

[Grimakis]

This is what my setup looked like a month or two ago (no longer have the genesis or FDS hooked up). Just kinda showing this to show how I have things setup. I went the condensed and unified route with all my fun stuff (PC, consoles, and CRT all in one area).


I had a 40 inch HDTV in place of that monitor before going to a 27 inch monitor. You can sit fairly close to one, although a large HDTV up that close looks kinda meh looking and as you get older begins to hurt the eyes at that distance. Personally I would not sit more than a couple feet away from a 14 inch CRT and maybe four feet away from a 20 Incher. Any farther than that on those two sizes makes the monitor look tiny and difficult to play on. Anyway figured I'd share my setup since I do have daisy chained devices.

I like your setup very much. I do admit I only joined this forum to discuss hardware, I actually don't play many shmups, if any at all. (Does Nanostray count?) So i'm not used to playing up and close to a monitor in the arcade style. I'm the laying on the couch from a distance kind of gamer.

I usually find myself playing on my 40" tv at a distance of 8ft. Unfortunately a 14" screen will probably be too small at that distance. HOWEVER, I consider myself to be an adaptable person. Needless to say, I would consider sitting much closer to the PVM. Anyway, this forum is an awesome place for hardware discussions. I was actually referred here by Fudoh, who picked up my post on the AVSforums. Not even a day later, I put in my order for a Framemeister, and I'm now playing on my LCD with RGB coming from my Genesis and SNES, and S-Video from the N64.

The next logical step is to get a PVM, and after looking at the Candy Cab thread, I'm certain I want a JAMMA Candy Cab of some kind.

Thanks a lot everyone... my credit card bill is 3x as high this month.

[noonan2678]

I'm keeping up with this and for me, the situation is a little different.

The only thing I'm concerned with here is ensure a good signal hits both the Mini and the PVM. Pretty sure my PVM doesn't have an output, but I'll check.
That said, I'm looking at an Extron Crosspoint as a possibility. I currently have SCART switchers with only one output. If that were the situation, how
would you go about "splitting" the signal?

Ideally, I'd split it immediately after whatever switching is being used, run one to the mini and the other to a Sync Strike, then the PVM.

Thoughts?

Thanks!

[Xan]

The one time I tried to use an output on a PVM was with a cheap USB S-Video capture device, that thing was probably a faulty piece of junk because it caused the PC to blue screen all the time as soon as that input was selected in Virtualdub. Plugging the cable into the PVM output caused the image to become really dull on the monitor, I'm not sure if that was related to the capture device or the monitor itself though.

[Grimakis]

I'm keeping up with this and for me, the situation is a little different.

The only thing I'm concerned with here is ensure a good signal hits both the Mini and the PVM. Pretty sure my PVM doesn't have an output, but I'll check.
That said, I'm looking at an Extron Crosspoint as a possibility. I currently have SCART switchers with only one output. If that were the situation, how
would you go about "splitting" the signal?

Ideally, I'd split it immediately after whatever switching is being used, run one to the mini and the other to a Sync Strike, then the PVM.

Thoughts?

Thanks!

You can probably find a SCART to RCA-style breakout. Then just use a powered Component video splitter.

http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-ST12 ... B000NK75HI

I can't attest to the quality of the above product, but it could be good?

Regards,
george

[Fudoh]

Not all component switches can run a video sync signal through the audio coax line.