What's your favorite weapons and upgrade system?

[KAI]

What's the Option Complete bonus? (Kuro/Arrange systems are pretty much a complete mystery to me)

It's the item shower you get every time you have all the weapons in stock.

[Sheado]

No, see, don't do this. A lot of the ones being mentioned are emulated in MAME

Thanks for the MAME suggestion - I've mostly been playing new stuff and ports of old stuffs. YouTube has been good as a time saver or pre-screen before I start playing something. So many shmups, so little time =]

If you have an XBox 360, I strongly suggest picking up a copy of Strania.

Strania looks awesome. Gonna have to get that wifi working on my XBox 360 again so I can try this out.

It manages to strike a good balance with the weapon powering where it still encourages you to score, and rewards you for scoring, but doesn't actually force you to score. I imagine that this is an incredibly hard balance to strike, however, so that's something that you should consider. In fact, Radiant Silvergun is often beraded for forcing you to engage with the highly proscriptive scoring system in order to get your weapons to a reasonable power level to even tackle the game (I couldn't say how true this is, as I've never played it).

Interesting point on the scoring systems. I rarely play for points and would hate to be forced to comply with a complex scoring system.

passively charging weapons are awesome.

Thanks for mentioning this! Passive charge wasn't even on my list of possible designs. I kinda like passive charge too.

Srry, if you weren't really looking to discuss weapons systems generally, rather than powerup discussion, specifically, btw I know that was a lot of text, but it seemed at least sort of relevant.

Thanks LordHypnos. Actually your feedback is exactly what I'm looking - it helps a lot! I should mention I'm playing shmups (and I have been for about 25 years), but I still feel like there's a lot of good ones I haven't played yet - and so little time to catch up =]
Oh and yeah, Ikaruga probably does have 3 weapons. Maybe 6 if you think of each weapon's polarity. But I over-simplified and used it as an example for the single weapon choice.
P.S. Nice gameplay videos btw.

I just thought I'd also mention the weapon system used in ring^-27. In the game you have a basic normal shot and a button that creates a link between you and an enemy

Didn't have this on my list either. Thanks for mentioning it. Weapon lock/link is definitely one of the less common designs out there.

one way to solve the problem of powerup dodging is to include a button that prevents the current weapon from switching. This button could either be held to prevent weapon switching or pressed to toggle between accepting new weapons or not.

I like the idea of putting all those buttons on modern controllers to use. Sometimes I wonder if older shmup designs were limited by budget constraints around having too many buttons.
Also, thanks for the R-Type Leo example.

Is even worse when all the upgrades got cancelled when you switch over, putting you in a nasty situation.
The only games that make those right are Mushihimesama with the timer on the pickup, and Fire Barrel for the untouched upgrade.

Thanks for those examples. A timer on the pickup is an interesting approach - I wonder why it's not more common...

I think that Elemental Master (Technosoft, Sega Genesis / Mega Drive) is kind of an example of this. In each of the first four stages you get a new weapon after defeating the boss.

I really like getting a new weapon after defeating a boss. To me, it makes defeating a boss even more rewarding.

[atro]

Cool thread.

I voted "other".
I like power up systems like Outzone/Fixeight.

You start with a weak shot and get "P's" to upgrade, then you can have special weapons like the Super Burner/Superball that takes out a lot of damage.

[Squire Grooktook]

Personally, I'm fine with all of these except "one weapon only".

Whether it's a large variety of weapons all available at once (Radiant Silvergun), or periodic weapon switching (Mahou Daisakusen, Strania, any Compile game), I like when a game has a unique and fun system for shooting stuff besides the "tap to spread, hold to laser" shit that's become super played out ever since Bullet Hell took over.

I know it's difficult to balance, but I wish more developers would experiment.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I like when a game has a unique and fun system for shooting stuff besides the "tap to spread, hold to laser" shit that's become super played out ever since Bullet Hell took over.

I think one of the reasons for its prevalence is because it works so well; you can have two different shot types on one character, and you can easily adjust your movement speed to suit, all at the push of a button. It's still possible to come up with shots that function interestingly and feel really interesting to use (Ketsui's lock, Casper's sawblade scissors in Deathsmiles, Reco Abnormal in Futari). One of the reasons I like Cave so much is because of how simple yet elegant the shot/laser system feels.

Even if your ship has just one weapon like ChoRenSha 68k, a slowdown button is incredibly fun and easy to use and is generally a welcome addition for tap dodging compared to other speed adjustment systems (Gradius powerups, PinkSweets shifting). You don't even necessarily need to have the slowdown button tied to shot/laser, you could do something like XOP Ultra where you have a toggle button for your selected shot types, with a separate slowdown button.

That being said, innovative weapon/movement systems that work well are really fun too (Acceleration of Suguri, Strania).

[LordHypnos]

I like when a game has a unique and fun system for shooting stuff besides the "tap to spread, hold to laser" shit that's become super played out ever since Bullet Hell took over.

I think one of the reasons for its prevalence is because it works so well; you can have two different shot types on one character, and you can easily adjust your movement speed to suit, all at the push of a button. It's still possible to come up with shots that function interestingly and feel really interesting to use (Ketsui's lock, Casper's sawblade scissors in Deathsmiles, Reco Abnormal in Futari). One of the reasons I like Cave so much is because of how simple yet elegant the shot/laser system feels.

Even if your ship has just one weapon like ChoRenSha 68k, a slowdown button is incredibly fun and easy to use and is generally a welcome addition for tap dodging compared to other speed adjustment systems (Gradius powerups, PinkSweets shifting). You don't even necessarily need to have the slowdown button tied to shot/laser, you could do something like XOP Ultra where you have a toggle button for your selected shot types, with a separate slowdown button.

That being said, innovative weapon/movement systems that work well are really fun too (Acceleration of Suguri, Strania).

I don't really have a problem with no focus ability in shmups (I mean, they're usually designed around having or not having it, after all), but I definitely find speed switching with a separate button (e.g. most older caravan games, including Recca) to be annoying, especially if it's mapped to select, and you can't change your mapping, and there's like 5 different speeds, and only like one spot where you need to change speed and you need to change by several degrees (Recca st. 1 boss, for example). Hold button to move slower is way preferable IMO. I don't ever use autofire in those types of games either, FWIW (meaning I just tap for unfocused), though I don't mind the separate focus button, it's just kind of distracting to switch between shots all the time. For some reason I didn't mind the two shot buttons much in Eschatos though, but IIRC, you can do everything with two buttons in there, which helps

An interesting example of kind of "proto-focus" is Zero Rei (X68000 caravan game), where you've got two buttons, one shoots, one fires a homing laser and switches shot types simultaneously. There are two shot types, one is a traditional caravan style five way thing, while the other is a straightforward shot. You're move speed is slower with the straight shot than with the five way. This game came out in 1994, IIRC. Fairly obscure doujin (great music, too, ofc, b/c X68000). Though it's not related to the focus, the homing laser recharges while you are using five way, so you can fire more homing lasers at once after using five way for a bit, or just fire two by switching to five way and immediately back to straight. It makes a bit more sense if you see it, and probably even more while playing.

I definitely agree with Squire, btw, about liking a bit more weapon variety than shot / bomb, or shot /focus/bomb, but it is easier to screw up novel weapons systems, I think.

[Squire Grooktook]

I like when a game has a unique and fun system for shooting stuff besides the "tap to spread, hold to laser" shit that's become super played out ever since Bullet Hell took over.

I think one of the reasons for its prevalence is because it works so well; you can have two different shot types on one character, and you can easily adjust your movement speed to suit, all at the push of a button. It's still possible to come up with shots that function interestingly and feel really interesting to use (Ketsui's lock, Casper's sawblade scissors in Deathsmiles, Reco Abnormal in Futari). One of the reasons I like Cave so much is because of how simple yet elegant the shot/laser system feels.

Even if your ship has just one weapon like ChoRenSha 68k, a slowdown button is incredibly fun and easy to use and is generally a welcome addition for tap dodging compared to other speed adjustment systems (Gradius powerups, PinkSweets shifting). You don't even necessarily need to have the slowdown button tied to shot/laser, you could do something like XOP Ultra where you have a toggle button for your selected shot types, with a separate slowdown button.

That being said, innovative weapon/movement systems that work well are really fun too (Acceleration of Suguri, Strania).

A focus mode is an entirely separate subject altogether. Although I'm pretty much always in favor of having a focus. If a game wants you to move fast it should find a way to make you move fast intuitively rather then forcing you IMO. I also vastly prefer the focus to control speed only and not effect movement.

Cave's style is okay, I'm just not a fan of the ultra spartan 1 weapon 2 shot system. Helps that most people just "follow the leader" in that regard and don't even try to come up with something unique. It's definitely one area of the genre where I can legitimately say bullet hell made things a lot less interesting IMO.

[Sheado]

Cool thread.

I voted "other".
I like power up systems like Outzone/Fixeight.

Thanks for voting atro and thanks for those references. Fixeight looks amazing.

I like when a game has a unique and fun system for shooting stuff besides the "tap to spread, hold to laser" shit that's become super played out ever since Bullet Hell took over.

I know it's difficult to balance, but I wish more developers would experiment.

I like a bit of variety in weapon systems as well. But yeah, balancing can really become an insane mathematical nightmare =]

I think one of the reasons for its prevalence is because it works so well;

but it is easier to screw up novel weapons systems, I think

On the other hand I can appreciate the elegance of a simple system. I sound schizophrenic, but there's definite pros and cons between traditional and innovative approaches. Both can be good, but messing up an innovative approach can be really bad.

As an exercise my team and I have been balancing a few different approaches. Single shot vs multiple weapons accessed at all times vs multiple weapons as pickups and I can already see how much more insane it is to balance the latter examples. We're a small team and we might take our chances with a more weapon-filled approach, but if we were a large team with lots of employees I think it would be really scary to risk straying from the 1 weapon, 2 shot system.

[ED-057]

I like the one in Blazing Lazers which has four primary weapons and four secondary weapons. Some secondary weapons behave differently depending on which primary weapon you have, or in the case of the "F" the primary weapon changes instead.

[Lobinden]

I like the third option because it presents another resource for the player to manage whilst playing, at some points the player may want to avoid the item along with bullets to keep their current weapon if their current weapon is better for the present situation, but they are still free to pick up the item once it becomes more useful. An example of this would be keeping the item bouncing around in Raiden during a stage but picking it up when it turns blue just before a boss.

Slightly less related but I do prefer it that when you die you keep your current "power-level" or at the very least the game spawns items at the top of the screen when you respawn, because this ensures that there will never be any points in the game where the player cannot perform a "recovery", and it gives the player a choice on whether they want to try a new weapon out upon respawning to see if it will work more effectively than the one they were using before.

[Sheado]

I like the one in Blazing Lazers

Thanks for voting ED-057 and thanks for that Blazing Lazers reference. That stacking upgrading system is really interesting.

I like the third option because it presents another resource for the player to manage whilst playing

Good point Lobinden - it helps me think of weapon management as a mini game itself.