Kanji practice (kanji book recommendations)

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

English haws never been a consistent language. EVER.

This is not true, of course. The English writing system was fairly consistent in Old English. Before the influx of French loanwords and French morphology into English (the cause of much of the irregularity in the modern language), English was a typical Germanic language. All languages have irregularity in some aspect. Japanese verbs are quite regular according to their class, though there are three verbs that conjugate irregularly: kuru 'to come', iku 'to go', and suru 'to do'.

Most language have their difficult points. People who find that the diffiuclt areas of the new language they are working on are similar to their native one will find the new language easy. Someone who hasn't had to worry aobut grammaticla gender (english speaker) will be driven nuts by having to memorize the grammatical gender of every noun, assigned without rhyme or reason. Somene who speaks a language with consistent spelling and pronunciation rules gets badly tripped up over english, which is the WORST offender in this area now. And people not used to memorizing more than two scripts and 1 alphabet between them (again English) will get seriously bewildered by Japanese, with 2 alphabets+kanji!

That's a great point you've made. I think English isn't too hard because it's similar in many ways to Spanish (a lot of words are written about the same, very similar alphabet, and some similar grammar rules.) On the other hand, Japanese is pretty hard for me because I function mostly in Spanish/English mode. Kanji is hell when you're not accustomed to using a large number of characters to make words. Grammar and politeness stuff is weird too.

On the plus side, I can speak some Cantonese and some Japanese words just sound about the same. Easy learning whoohohohohohoo!!!!

PS. Am I crazy to think that Japanese is phonetically similar to Spanish?

[GaijinPunch]

PS. Am I crazy to think that Japanese is phonetically similar to Spanish?

No, besides that crazy rrrrrrrrrrrr sound, and the lisp Spanish people have, they're very similar phonetically.

[EOJ]

As I recall, in the days of "ye olde magick Shoppe" you could spell the same word different ways. and that's consistent? Sure, at the time the spelling was reformed, it was something approacing consistent, but then all the foreign words started getting in, and that took it all out the window.

In Old English (~7th-11th century AD) the spelling was quite consistent with a nice "one letter, one sound" correspondence, as I stated. The language's sound system was disrupted by the Norman conquest in the 11th century, and then the Great Vowel Shift in the Middle English period. Large variations in spellings came about in the 1500s. For example "pity" could be spelled "pity", "pyty", "pitie", "pytie", "pittie", and "pyttye". By the 1700s the spelling became largely fixed, though the "one letter, one sound" correspondence found in the Old English period was largely lost. Here's a nice poem by Richard Krogh illustrating this point:

Beware of heard, a dreadful word
that looks like beard and sounds like bird.
And dead; it's said like bed, not bead;
For goodness sake, don't call it deed!
Watch out for meat and great and threat
(they rhyme with suite and straight and debt).
A moth is not a moth in Mother,
nor both in bother, broth in brother.

[CIT]

twe, I guess it's your job researching and teaching this stuff, but still I'm really impressed by your posts. Really informative, thanks!

[D]

I am Dutch and all other languages are derived from Dutch.
Dutch will be the language of the future.
My language is the best.
All other languages bow before Dutch.
We got tulips and cheese, we rule the Universe.

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

Ahhhh, I'm tired. It seems I'll never finish learning the standard kanji in my life at the pace I'm going. Right now, I know more than 300, but it's hard to say how well I know 'em, so I put 250 in my kanji counter. I guess my plan of learning 1954 kanji in two years is way too ambitious. 1000 is a more realistic number.

[judesalmon]

Just get a word tank.

[GaijinPunch]

UFO: You will not learn them if you're not reading... it's just the way it goes. You can only learn so much through flashcards and repetition. It's a great way to get a base, but once you get to around 1000, you need to "see them in action" for it to work right.

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

What's a good beginners website with readings? Preferably sites that have the pronunciation and vocab for the readings. It's a big pain to read with what I now right now, so I usually only read what's in my kanji book and textbooks.

Yeah, I'm a noob. Though, I don't want to stay a noob forever.

[MSZ]

Hey, a couple of Japanese RPG games won't hurt either. Like Gaijin said you have to read more to learn more.

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

I want to play DQ8! It's horrible how they butched that game in the NA version. I hope DQ9 doesn't come out by the time I'll be able to play DQ8.

Just get a word tank.

What's a word tank?

[GaijinPunch]

I guess for now your texts would be best, but yeah, an RPG couldn't help -- you would probably be playing games anyway, so two birds with one stone. The more voicing the better, as well. Never played DQ, so can't comment.

What I would do is a lesson worth of flash cards for a day or so, until you think you have them memorized. Then do the reading, then go on. Make sure you go back and (perhaps randomly) do previous lessons as not to forget.

Eventually you'll get to the point where you can just pick up something, read it, and use your dictionary to help you. Oh, yeah -- until you get a good feal for the pronunciations, a Nelson Kanji Dictionary is probably not a bad investment.

[judesalmon]

Just get a word tank.

What's a word tank?

It's a sort of electronic dictionary that has all the registered Kanji in it.

You enter what the Kanji is (the best ones have a stylus so you can draw it in) and it tells you how to pronounce the Kanji and what it means.

Loads of Japanese people have them just in case they come across any obscure Kanji they can't read.

[GaijinPunch]

How good is the stylus? You know, there's a a way to do this w/ the Microsoft IME, so you can technically do this with any online dictionary. The problem is, writing a kanji with your mouse is akin to playing pick-up sticks with your butt cheeks.

[CIT]

Actually "Word Tank" is a series of electronic dictionaries specifically made by Canon, and they don't have a touchscreen. Still, the Word Tanks are the easiest to use for people learning Japanese. I use one myself, and am very happy with it.

I don't think there's many dictionaries that let you write Kanji anymore (there used to be a Zaurus one a while back), because nowadays you can just get a dictionary for your Palm, Cliè, etc, instead. The best one for Japanese learners is Dokusha, and what's more, it's entirely for free!!!

http://www.geocities.com/andrew_brault/dokusha/

Once you know over 1000 Kanji, and you know all the radicals, it is faster to just use a typing dictionary, though.

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

Just get a word tank.

What's a word tank?

It's a sort of electronic dictionary that has all the registered Kanji in it.

You enter what the Kanji is (the best ones have a stylus so you can draw it in) and it tells you how to pronounce the Kanji and what it means.

Loads of Japanese people have them just in case they come across any obscure Kanji they can't read.

The prices on these things are rediculous. Rediculous! I tell ya. I'd have to sell an arm, a leg and Radiant Silvergun to get one of the higher end ones.

@Seven Force: Did I say I'm poor before? I got no palms, blueberries (whatever their name are), or pocketPCs, so sadly I can't use that program.

I'll stick to the intarweb for the time being. The online dictionary I'm using seems pretty good.

wwwjdic.com

Gimme some feedback on it. Please. What about other sites?

[GaijinPunch]

Do you have Microsoft Bookshelf-J? It rocks the house. It gets the most Japanese-time in my house. But yeah, as Seven Force said, you need to learn the radicals, and maybe even learn how to look up kanji by radical.

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

Do you have Microsoft Bookshelf-J? It rocks the house. It gets the most Japanese-time in my house. But yeah, as Seven Force said, you need to learn the radicals, and maybe even learn how to look up kanji by radical.

Dunno what Microsoft Bookshelf-J is.

I know a good many of the radicals. Where can I find a complete set?

[GaijinPunch]

The Nelson has all of them. I'm sure there's a site on the net w/ them somewhere. The only reason they come in handy other than knowing the kanji better, is to look them up in a Kanji dictionary. Bookshelf-J is the Japanese version of Bookshelf, which is a Kodansha E/J-J/E dictionary. It is one of Microsoft's 3 good applications. I highly recommend getting it. You can PM about it if you want.

[CIT]

Good Luck to everybody taking the Proficiency Test tomorrow!

頑張って下さい！

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

This is the coolest day of the new year. Today, I saw two beautiful jp girls at school and even got to hear them talking. Well, sorta, because I went into shock at hearing them speak japanese and only remember something finishing in "shii." They even did me the favor of passing in front of me a couple of times, so I could take a good look. Great times.

Also, there was this chinese girl on the train that was reading a japanese textbook. It seemed a bit advanced because there was a good many kanji in the readings, but I couldn't really tell since I was sitting a little far. Just thinking about a 15-or-so-years-old girl beating the crap out of me in japanese sends chills down my spine. I should have paid attention when my mom was forcing me to learn cantonese. Grrrrr .

Anyways, at my current learning rate, I reckon I'll have 1000 kanji learned in two years. I can recognize and write about 300. I can recognize about 400.

[GaijinPunch]

This is the coolest day of the new year. Today, I saw two beautiful jp girls at school

Didn't get their numbers?

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

This is the coolest day of the new year. Today, I saw two beautiful jp girls at school

Didn't get their numbers?

Shizz, you're the second person to ask me that--no. I can get a lil' farther than asking them their numbers, more than that and I've to consult my books.

I could've asked them in English, but that'd be no fun .

[Ganelon]

Also, there was this chinese girl on the train that was reading a japanese textbook. It seemed a bit advanced because there was a good many kanji in the readings, but I couldn't really tell since I was sitting a little far.

You sure it wasn't a Chinese textbook?

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

Also, there was this chinese girl on the train that was reading a japanese textbook. It seemed a bit advanced because there was a good many kanji in the readings, but I couldn't really tell since I was sitting a little far.

You sure it wasn't a Chinese textbook?

No, I'm sure. I read the book title.

[Neo Rasa]

Also, there was this chinese girl on the train that was reading a japanese textbook. It seemed a bit advanced because there was a good many kanji in the readings, but I couldn't really tell since I was sitting a little far.

You sure it wasn't a Chinese textbook?

No, I'm sure. I read the book title.

But if it was in kanji......

[NTSC-J]

I've been cramming in the kanji the past few months and have about 1500 down. My brain is approaching a near meltdown but one must persevere. Learning the radicals proved invaluable.

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

You sure it wasn't a Chinese textbook?

No, I'm sure. I read the book title.

But if it was in kanji......

It wasn't all kanji but there were more than in my textbook. The one I'm using right now is more concerned with grammar and and sentence patterns. It's called "Learn Japanese: New College Text Volume II."

[GaijinPunch]

I've been cramming in the kanji the past few months and have about 1500 down. My brain is approaching a near meltdown but one must persevere. Learning the radicals proved invaluable.

Any plan to make the big trip over? 1500 is very impressive. Just make sure you don't forget them. Gotta read...pretty much every day until you don't want to remember them.

[NTSC-J]

I've been cramming in the kanji the past few months and have about 1500 down. My brain is approaching a near meltdown but one must persevere. Learning the radicals proved invaluable.

Any plan to make the big trip over? 1500 is very impressive. Just make sure you don't forget them. Gotta read...pretty much every day until you don't want to remember them.

Yea actually I'm moving in March to Tokyo. If you're in the area I'd love to have a tour.

Reading manga on the side and studying flash cards everyday helps, although I can't help but wonder when I'll ever get to use the kanji for guaze and placenta.