The Pixel Purist:

[FBX]

Anyway! I've got a bit of a weird problem with RGB colour. As you can clearly see, component is gorgeous, warm, vibrant and pretty much identical to what I see on my BVM. It really is top notch. However, RGB is extremely... Dull. Although, it's not a brightness or contrast issue. I thought it was at first and spent a while messing with them, but they didn't fix anything. It seems like the problem is actually a greeny blue hue over the entire image. I tried messing with the RGB settings, but it only made the whites extremely red, or made everything even more dull. I don't have a reliable way of capturing it, but another good example was the grass outside Peach's castle in SM64. On my BVM, it's green, the sand is orange, and the walls are grey. On the Mini, the grass is highliter neon green, the sand is blueish, and the walls are red. It's visible pretty well if you look at the top corner of the sunshine image - the grass is neon on the RGB one and correct on the Component one.

Have You tried the A/D setting? I recall the component auto-default is considerably more vivid than the RGB default. Other than that, maybe check saturation, gamma, brightness settings.

[Jademalo]

Can't change saturation for RGB, it's blanked out. A/D is 133 for both. As I said, I've been over gamma and brightness to practically every combination and this is as close as I can get it to looking decent. It seems to me that green is just totally overblown for whatever reason. I've tried all manner of cables and inputs and it definitely seems to be a mini issue rather than an input issue.

I'll try lowering the A/D somewhat and see if that helps things.

EDIT: Eeehh... It kinda fixes the green issue, but then everything looks super, super dull and increasing brightness and gamma just makes it look washed out. Yellows are also really, really green.
Speaking of those - What is the difference between brightness and gamma? Visually im struggling to see that much between them. Also, am I right in thinking that black is contrast?

[Fudoh]

Brightness is white level (usually called contrast on TVs). Gamma raises the mid-levels without directly raising the white level or the black level.

[austin532]

Anyway, if I may ask, how are you able to get RGB output from the Framemeister when on the D-Terminal input? On mine, it won't ever switch to RGB if I'm using the component D-Terminal.

I assume it's outputting RGB but I suppose I could be wrong. The status page list YCbCr as Input and RGB as Output. Also if it wasn't outputting RGB wouldn't I be getting a washed out image?

I have my TV set to Full and changed the color output to RGB in the mini Options menu. You have to refresh the mini to take effect.

[Jademalo]

Brightness is white level (usually called contrast on TVs). Gamma raises the mid-levels without directly raising the white level or the black level.

Brightness is contrast?
Lovely =p

Also I see, that makes a bit more sense. It's a bit of a weird one since sometimes it looks like it makes a huge difference, and sometimes it's totally unnoticable. I'm still not entirely sure what to do to get RGB's colour right though, especially considering most people recommend A/D 131... I feel like I've tried every option at this point and I just can't get it right. I wish saturation was enabled for rgb, I'd probably be able to get it much closer with that, lol.

[Fudoh]

especially considering most people recommend A/D 131

the problem with the A/D level setting is that it totally screws with the gamma. It's less about recommending a certain, but more about finding a setting that gives you no solarization/noise problems.

[Jademalo]

especially considering most people recommend A/D 131

the problem with the A/D level setting is that it totally screws with the gamma. It's less about recommending a certain, but more about finding a setting that gives you no solarization/noise problems.

On Sunshine spesifically, that was 133. Lower than that and blues got noise, higher than that and whites got noise. What's annoying me slightly though is even if I actually lower it substantially, I still can't get the colour right. It's strange since it was so easy to get component to look exactly like both an emulator and my BVM, even though I've heard loads of people complain that component is terrible.
If I do get the colours looking closer, then everything tends to be really dull and grey. One thing I've noticed A/D is really good at is getting a really nice, clean and bright white. I haven't managed to get that with lower A/D.

I feel like I'm doing something hillariously wrong and I haven't noticed. Has anyone got some recommended a/d, brightness, gamma and black settings for rgb so I can give them a shot and see if it's an improvement?

[FBX]

Anyway, if I may ask, how are you able to get RGB output from the Framemeister when on the D-Terminal input? On mine, it won't ever switch to RGB if I'm using the component D-Terminal.

I assume it's outputting RGB but I suppose I could be wrong. The status page list YCbCr as Input and RGB as Output.

On mine, it will only output RGB if the input is RGB. If I use the D-Terminal, the full status screen shows the output as YCbCr no matter what I do.

On Sunshine spesifically, that was 133. Lower than that and blues got noise, higher than that and whites got noise. What's annoying me slightly though is even if I actually lower it substantially, I still can't get the colour right.

And there's also the issue of crushing colors. I found out anything beyond 140 will crush green shades in SMW, so there's a very small window of accuracy to work with. Anyway, I don't have RGB for the Gamecube, but I do have the original component cable. I was thinking of doing that system next.

[Jademalo]

On Sunshine spesifically, that was 133. Lower than that and blues got noise, higher than that and whites got noise. What's annoying me slightly though is even if I actually lower it substantially, I still can't get the colour right.

And there's also the issue of crushing colors. I found out anything beyond 140 will crush green shades in SMW, so there's a very small window of accuracy to work with. Anyway, I don't have RGB for the Gamecube, but I do have the original component cable. I was thinking of doing that system next.

My GC is mainly done with the Wii and the component cables, but in 480i. With component honestly I have absolutely no complaints, and the colours are fantastic.
I've taken a few shots of SM64 to show this isn't a system issue though, even on this greens go insanely neon and whites are grey.

Here's an image of the top of the mountain on bob-omb battlefield.. You can also see the Bob-omb's stache is extremely grey.
http://i.imgur.com/r5SZzz6.png
And here's a section of the grass taken and averaged in Photoshop. An image from a guy in the other thread on the left (https://blz.la/rgb/img/2014/framemeister_29.jpg), mine is on the right.
http://i.imgur.com/DQmst34.png

Here's also an image of the very start of the game, you can see how neon the grass looks especially here. The texture has been almost completely destroyed.
http://i.imgur.com/eDErXur.png
Here's another image of the start, but one I took a couple of days ago. For some reason the colours are different again, lol.
http://i.imgur.com/KLf8qFN.png

[FBX]

And which system is this on again? N64?

[Jademalo]

This happens for all systems I use RGB on. The original images were the Wii running sunshine, and those above images are my rgb modded N64 running SM64.

[FBX]

Well that is very strange then. Perhaps your mini is defective? The only way to know for sure would be to get a hold of another mini and cross-reference.

[Jademalo]

I'm starting to think it's maybe a firmware bug now. As I said in the other thread, this is getting mega confusing, but I'm pretty sure it has something to do with colour spaces.

The new OBS has an option to use 601 or 709 colour. This is an issue related, but really weird.

Using Component on 709, I get a perfect image
Using RGB on 709, I get a greeny image.
Using Component on 601, I get an image IDENTICAL to RGB on 709
Using RGB on 601, I get an INSANELY green image.

Just from looking, it's almost as if rgb is getting a double helping of 601's greeniness, even though I don't think it works that way, lol. What really gets me is that component on 601 and rgb on 709 are entirely identical, and I mean entirely. RGB on 601 practically doubles the issue, and makes the greens flat out insane.

[Fudoh]

could you maybe refrain from posting the same text in both threads ? I think we're all able to concentrate on one of the threads (which should be the Framemeister one)

[Jademalo]

Yeah of course, sorry. I had it in my head that it was two entirely different places since different people were participating lol. I was also a bit confused and flustered because nothing made sense, and for good reason, since it didn't. Lol.

My bad!

[FBX]

New updates:

1. Pixel Purist page now has a an additional link to a page describing 4:3 aspect correction and the importance of it. This can be found below the Zelda LttP image.

2. New page on Nintendo Gamecube at perfect 2x scale with aspect correction. The link to it is at the bottom of the Pixel Purist page.

3. Added in several notes to disambiguate PS2 and PS1 settings on the PS2 component output.


http://www.firebrandx.com/pixelpurist.html

[austin532]

Shouldn't the V-Scaler be at 5 for 480i/p games to prevent halos and ringing or do the Zoom settings help correct this?

[FBX]

Shouldn't the V-Scaler be at 5 for 480i/p games to prevent halos and ringing or do the Zoom settings help correct this?

For Gamecube? The component cable image was nice and clean, and V_SCALER: 6 looked great on it (with the 2x scale setting that is).

[Fudoh]

yeah, the x2 setting is the only one to allow for V_SCALER 5 with 480p content. With all other modes cause serious jaggies. It's rather interesting though that the additional overscan compensation (through the zoom function) doesn't mess it up again.

Weird little box...

[FBX]

Learning all the nuances of the Framemeister is like solving the Lament Configuration

I noticed while experimenting with zoomed in graphics that the "SHARPNESS" feature is done post-scaling. I found it works pretty well with my Gamecube 2x settings when set to a value of 1.

[12345]

2. New page on Nintendo Gamecube at perfect 2x scale with aspect correction. The link to it is at the bottom of the Pixel Purist page.
http://www.firebrandx.com/pixelpurist.html

Why do you set your PS2 at 4x scale and your cube at 2x scale at the same resolution? This doesn't make sense to me.

[FBX]

2. New page on Nintendo Gamecube at perfect 2x scale with aspect correction. The link to it is at the bottom of the Pixel Purist page.
http://www.firebrandx.com/pixelpurist.html

Why do you set your PS2 at 4x scale and your cube at 2x scale at the same resolution? This doesn't make sense to me.

The "4x" is referring to 320x240 game modes, whereas "2x" is referring to the various 480i/480p modes. I don't recall the Gamecube using any 240p modes, so I just called it 2x.

[12345]

Shouldn't the V-Scaler be at 5 for 480i/p games to prevent halos and ringing or do the Zoom settings help correct this?

I have to agree with you. I tested the recommended zoom settings with different scaling options in Waverace Bluestorm at 480p and the difference is clearly visible. Please take a look at the following comparison shots:

Spoiler

V_SCALER=6, look at the false conturing on the top of the '8'

V_SCALER=5, no more false conturing but pixaleted look

H_SCALER=10, V_SCALER=5

I know you're a pixel purist but the recent GC settings look far from perfect to me.

[FBX]

Those aren't 'false contours' but rather are the actual horizontal lines of pixels.

All I can tell you is on my 1080p screen with the zoom settings in place and using a Sharpness value of 1, it looks nice and clean.

[12345]

Those aren't 'false contours' but rather are the actual horizontal lines of pixels.

All I can tell you is on my 1080p screen with the zoom settings in place and using a Sharpness value of 1, it looks nice and clean.

I use the exact same settings and I doubt the extra horizontal line of pixels is really meant to be visible. If you really get better/different results with the same setup I'm starting to wonder if there might be different revisions of the xrgb mini.

[FBX]

I'll work on developing an alternative profile for those that want a smoother look. The sharp look used Zelda Wind Waker as the test game, where the epilogue intro as well as the subscreen both looked superb. It may be another deal where each game may look better with different focus settings (focus refers to H_SCALER and V_SCALER).

[FBX]

Update:

Gamecube settings page rewritten to include a 2nd profile of fullscreen with smooth graphics. Most will prefer to play with that profile. Here's the link (hit refresh if old page still shows up):

http://www.firebrandx.com/gamecubeframemeister.html

[12345]

Good, the combination of H_SCALER 11 and SHARPNESS 2 works very well under V_SCALER 5.
I think you should add on a sidenote that it might be possible that setting ZOOM_SIZE 99 might cause a loss of 1% of the image if it reaches the vertical/(horizontal) hight already by default, as previously discussed with some games.

Other than that I like how your blog is shaping up and wonder how other 240p-consoles, like the N64, would differ, in terms of the Framemeister's settings, from the SNES/Genesis page you provided.

[NightSprinter]

FBX, only a VERY select few Gamecube NTSC titles did 240p over component. The ones that come to mind are Zelda Collector's Edition (Z1&2 run at native NES resolution) and Mega Man X Collection (X1&2 run at native SNES, all other games at native PS1 resolution of 320x240 with the game select menu in 480i) Hope that tidbit helps.

[FBX]

Other than that I like how your blog is shaping up and wonder how other 240p-consoles, like the N64, would differ, in terms of the Framemeister's settings, from the SNES/Genesis page you provided.

I'm curious myself, but I only have S-Video for N64. I'd want to have an RGB-capable N64 before I venture into settings for it. I also want to at some point get a Neo Geo home console again so I can try that one out.