Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[BrianC]

RABU has you play as the chick rescuing the dude! Overseas version "STAR SAVER" reversed things.

Oh well, at least the intro suggests parity between them. And I agree it's not a game where you should see a mech-less character a lot.
The GB game Max (Rubble Saver II?) is supposed to be a sequel to Rubble Saver.

Max is the same game as Rubble Saver II. The grappling hook looks interesting. It looks like the sequel sells for a bit more than the original. Only one EU listing came up when I searched worldwide on ebay. Not to mention that the game is a bit of a pain to search for thanks to all the GB games with Max in the title like Monster Max. It definitely doesn't top X GB in terms of being hard to search for, though. I did find X and I like it quite a bit.

[BIL]

Gave RS2 a brief spin this evening, cleared two and a bit stages (that overseas cover, aieee! the JP version is comically similar to the original's but at least it's not frickin hideous ).

I'd tried this out a while back and didn't find it as immediately intriguing as the original. Revisiting, the obvious improvement is the greatly smoothed-out framerate. And where RS1's grappling hook was essentially a pit rescue item with limited stock, RS2's is a fully-fledged movement option. Could easily see doing some cool things, even if it's not as immediately engaging as Bionic Commando's masterpiece grappling engine.

I'm reminded of why I wasn't as compelled, though. RS1 is a shooting-obsessed sidescrolling action game with the mercurial charm of feeling like it's being faxed to my GB from a madman's MSX somewhere in early 1980s Tokyo. RS2 feels like any other serviceable GB platformer with ambling level design, lots of space and no-rush pacing. I'm sure it might pick up and I'll certainly have to give it a proper look before saying any more, but for now I stopped playing the third stage because its clear popcorns -> open door -> repeat cycle was making me drowsy.

[Obiwanshinobi]

RS1 is a shooting-obsessed sidescrolling action game with the mercurial charm of feeling like it's being faxed to my GB from a madman's MSX somewhere in early 1980s Tokyo.

Dunno why I thought of Speccy first, but it does feel like a real old computer game running on GB by mistake.

[Squire Grooktook]

What's the general opinion on Altered Beast? I cleared it (genesis version, at least) years ago, and I remember enjoying the boss fights and the stage gimmicks. A lot of people act like the game is terrible these days. I always thought it was decent though. Am I alone on this?

[BIL]

Never played the AC version, but the MD one is totally fine. Not what I'd call a standout, but there's little wrong with it, some of the powers are fun (I love body-ramming mechanics!), and the overall theme and style are rad. Those yellow-clad bruiser zombies are classic.

I suspect it gets more flak than it deserves for being the system's overseas launch pack-in, with the true early-gen killer app The Revenge of Shinobi hitting very shortly afterward.

[BrianC]

I found AB to be a nice game as well.

[BIL]

Anecdote Corner: my first exposure to the Genesis was when my cousin got a launch system and a bunch of games that naturally attained XTREEM NOSTALGIA CACHET in my little boy brain. There were no arcades where I grew up, so all this stuff made strong impressions just by virtue of the hardware.

After Burner II
Altered Beast
Golden Axe
Revenge of Shinobi
Space Harrier II
Super Hang-On

Personal taste for super scaler games aside, there's no reason to bother with any of the above three today - the MD simply couldn't capture their essence, and infinitely better Saturn, DC, PS2 and even 3DS ports exist (I don't do nostalgia collecting, as a rule... teh ROMZ more than suffice). Revenge blew my goddamn mind, as it did most peoples', and still holds up mightily today. Axe is kinda the beltscroller counterpart to AB, not outstanding but a solidly executed port (extra content, even) and very characterful. Those two are in my current collection.

AB I'd actually consider picking up. Feels a bit weird having Axe but not that, given what a similar position they occupy in the system's early life (edit: and their shared Makoto Uchida authorship... play Dynamite Deka's PS2 AGES arrange mode for maximum AXEBEAST funnin).

edit II: oh, also

[Squire Grooktook]

some of the powers are fun (I love body-ramming mechanics!), and the overall theme and style are rad.

Particularly love how their incorporated into some of the boss fights. Bear Somersaulting into the snails shell, using the Leopards vertical charge dash to hit the lava crocodile after manuevering under him, dashing through the final boss. I feel like it makes a lot of the fights very memorable.

[Mortificator]

The bosses are good in both design and attack, up to the embarassing final one. Yes, supposed god of the underworld, turn into a rhino-man! That'll scare me.

[BrianC]

Personally, despite the lack of scaling, I found SH2 different enough to stand on its own. It also has some of the cooler bosses in the series. I especially like the flatwoods monster.

Super Hang On has an interesting additional mode with sim like features, but it's not very fun to play. The mode starts you off with a weak bike and you have to face the same oppoent over and over to progress. The sad thing about the Genesis port is that it was the best version up until M2 did versioms for PS3, 360, Wii, and later 3DS. The GBA port had a better framerate tham the Genesis version, but botched other aspects like the track design and score tables.

[BIL]

I have such a fondness for II's monsters and bosses, particularly those flying armours, that weird "singing" stone face and most of all Medusa. I'd never played or even seen/heard the arcade original, and wouldn't for several years, so that one actually feels less novel to me. It's the immense velocity and intense scenery-dodging I enjoy Harrier for these days, though, so it's hard to give II much time. I'm happy enough with its spot on the AGES SHII disc.

Funny how II's biggest contribution to the series came well over a decade after its release, in giving M2 the perfect excuse for that second AGES Harrier disc.

[Volteccer_Jack]

Been playing SMS Ninja Gaiden. It's got the wider options and more intricate/vertical design of NGIII, but it's managed to maintain that razor sharp sense of speed from NGI/II that the third entry slightly dulled. The bosses are also mostly a step up from the NES games, albeit still not impressive. The downsides are that ammo is too plentiful (even without the infinity bug), and the game is a bit of a memorizer thanks to very fast enemies and start-up lag on the sword. Much like X6, I can immediately see why it doesn't have a fanbase, and much like X6, I am head-over-heels in love. Just look at the horrific work of insanity/genius that is this game's level design:

[Mortificator]

I liked the Master System game at first, but as I played it more, my opinion dropped. I'd ultimately choose the patched Ninja Gaiden III over it, though that's not the fairest comparison.

[BrianC]

I have such a fondness for II's monsters and bosses, particularly those flying armours, that weird "singing" stone face and most of all Medusa. I'd never played or even seen/heard the arcade original, and wouldn't for several years, so that one actually feels less novel to me. It's the immense velocity and intense scenery-dodging I enjoy Harrier for these days, though, so it's hard to give II much time. I'm happy enough with its spot on the AGES SHII disc.

Yeah, don't get me wrong, I definitely like original Space Harrier better. I especially like how some stages slow down and speed up. Some ports lack the intense speed in stages like Revi.

[BIL]

For IS...ever had that feeling where you know a game is a kusoge but you can't help but love it?

Robocop VS Terminator (MD). :[ Beautiful trash. Not a horrible game in the grand scheme of things, but revisiting this ultraviolence favourite the rickety undergirding is impossible to ignore. Incessant restore items plaster over a jumbo hitbox, wafting bullet clumps and most critically: no hitstun on anything whatsoever.

No palpable impact at all, actually. Robocop has a Shinobi-style automelee punch. Even the lowliest grunt will contact-decimate your lifebar before it connects. For all the gore, this isn't actually a "violent game" at all. Quite the opposite: it's irritatingly frail and halting. Or it would've been, if not for all those lifeups! Instead, it's just a pretty, vacantly diverting gorefest/scenery smasher. It's also one of those Western-developed MD titles that's maaad pricey in JP format, so I can't even let it by on novelty.

Shame the quality audiovisual assets weren't given to someone with half a clue. A RvT sidescroller with this dark, bloody, black-lit presentation and Valken's thumping heft would be glorious. Did these chumps even see Robo vs ED209 or Kain? Sheeeit!

Much like X6, I can immediately see why it doesn't have a fanbase, and much like X6, I am head-over-heels in love.

I like quite a few of those scrappy "licensed doujin" latter-day sequels, at least when they distill the right elements of their series. Haven't played any of the PS-era Xs much, but I knew I had to have X6 when I saw its ill repute and unfriendly stage design! See also Metal Slug 4, aesthetically laughable yet a surprisingly substantial and super-tough pastiche.

OTOH there's Dracula XX, a game that imitates and exacerbates all the wrong aspects of oldschool CV and thus earns my frothing disapproval. Where did the notion of oldschool CV protagonists walking slowly come from, I wonder? Certainly not the briskly scrolling original or any of its console sequels. It blighted the otherwise excellent Dracula Densetsu II, and with XX already soundly inferior in most departments it makes me want to cover my cart with a folding chair and hit it with a flying elbow. I suppose it's not a fair comparison... had Konami simply CTRL+V'd Rondo's engine as in the above Rockman and Metal Slugs, XX would still be lame but not intolerably so.

[Imhotep]

I've been playing Dragon Fighter recently, great game, cool settings and crisp gameplay. I particularly like the fact that initiating dragon form doesn't cost any extra dragon meter, so it's useful in short bursts, to perform extra high jumps and the like.

While not a hard game, it provides a decent challenge. I was surprised, however, to find a code at the "END" screen after waiting for a few minutes (4xA, 4xB, 4xA,B). After input at the title screen, the game changes to hard mode:

-no item drops
-some enemies release return bullets when killed with the dragon
-faster bullets
-dragon energy depletes faster (not 100% sure)
-respawning enemies appear at faster rates (not 100% sure)

The biggest game changer is definitely the lack of health drops, it makes for a much more unrelenting challenge, I died at the 5th stage.
I very much like the fact that there's an "extended" game, will try the 1LC.

[BIL]

While not a hard game, it provides a decent challenge. I was surprised, however, to find a code at the "END" screen after waiting for a few minutes (4xA, 4xB, 4xA,B). After input at the title screen, the game changes to hard mode:

Oh my god. I love you. I'm sure I'd checked GameFAQs for any extra mode cheats after beating Normal (as I always do), but somehow I totally missed this one. That's my weekend sorted then.

[Ghegs]

^- That's very cool. More games should do that. I was all O_O when after I cleared Solomon's Key 2 there was a code that gave access to 50 more stages.

I do have Dragon Fighter but I didn't really warm up to it, I like a bit more complex stage designs than what I saw there. But I'm not working on any Famicom game currently (went back to Jigoku Gokuraku Maru for a moment to make a 1LC video) so I should probably give it another go, then.

[BrianC]

^- That's very cool. More games should do that. I was all O_O when after I cleared Solomon's Key 2 there.

I like how the original Kirby's Dreamland for GB did something like that. Unlike other Kirby extra modes, enemy difficulty is beefed up and harder variations of certain enemies appear.

[drauch]

^- That's very cool. More games should do that. I was all O_O when after I cleared Solomon's Key 2 there.

I like how the original Kirby's Dreamland for GB did something like that. Unlike other Kirby extra modes, enemy difficulty is beefed up and harder variations of certain enemies appear.

Oh no shit? Beat that game so many times growing up and never even noticed it. Probably my short attention span.

[dojo_b]

Hi folks, I'm new here but I've learned tons from browsing this great thread. A huge influence on my gaming tastes.

After a months-long campaign, I managed a 1LC of Ninja Gaiden this morning. Fun every step of the way and well worth the effort to conquer. I think of myself as a fairly mediocre gamer (with no previous 1LCs and only a few recent 1CCs), and this was definitely a product of long practice not raw talent. To embolden others to try, I want to describe my experience (this will be a bit long).

To train, I allowed myself continues but not save-state abuse. I say this because I think save states, even for practice, completely change the essence of this game. (Not to say they'd ruin it. I also mostly avoided watching videos, but this was just a little extra masochism.)

To review, the main defining feature of NG's challenge is a very hard three-stage Act VI, where continues are allowed within each stage, but with a triple final boss battle that hatefully tosses you back to stage 6-1 if you fail (although dead bosses stay dead). So, as BIL and others have suggested, to even learn the ropes with the bosses, you need serious skill on Act VI.

That's THE main thing. And it took me a lamentably long time. My skill improved in discrete phases:

-First, after many struggles, I managed to simply get to the boss rush, only to get destroyed by Jaquio.

-Then I got sufficiently better to arrive at the boss holding the spin-slash subweapon, whose deadly touch allowed me to actually clear the game. This meant plenty of shameful re-encounters of the bosses to regain the spin-slash---since your subweapon is taken away after each boss fight, win or lose! Of course the spin-slash also felt totally cheap.

-Then I learned the rudiments of Jaquio and Demon well enough to take them down with the fire-blast sub (when holding enough ammo, which required still more skill at Act VI). OK, a legit victory, but still with dozens of continues. And again, the necessary defeat and re-encounter with Demon rankled.

Even after winning this way a half-dozen times, I still didn't dare to aspire to a 1CC. I was OK at Act VI, but looking back I still didn't have my stuff together. I really needed to master every encounter, with a clear-cut plan. Unless you are quite good, this is not a game that rewards improvisation. The frequent pit-traps, combined with enemies that can respawn if you move even slightly in the wrong direction, and the general quick pace make it a losing bet.

-So without a clear end-goal in mind, I set out to master Act VI. I would like to say I succeeded, and I almost have, although flying-ninja chaos still erupts sometimes on 6-2. But OK, good enough---now I can actually practice reliably on that Jaquio fucker! So why not try and beat him without subweapons? Within a few play sessions I was able to beat him the majority of times, and it's gotten quite reliable.

Let me say that learning to take Jaquio on with sword alone was one of the most fun experiences I've had in any side-scroller. The surface simplicity of his pattern (sweep L/R and shoot) hides a subtle phase difference between his two repeated behaviors, which frustrates rote player patterns. You have to develop a good sense of timing and anticipation, and it helps to actively visualize whether your attack will succeed or be punished. The shots' homing behavior adds another layer of subtlety as you must learn where to draw the fire and how to evade it.

By the way, there is a key general point here: with an enemy like Jaquio (or Demon) for which attacking and defending/evading are each difficult, it is really helpful to first simply learn to evade. Just getting to Jaquio and running down the timer without being killed is a worthy milestone. Then, you can slowly start to splice attacks into your evasion pattern. Progress should be measured by number of successful (unpunished) hits on the boss, not total damage.

-Now I had a reasonable handle on Act VI and on Jaquio. As soon as I saw him die by the sword, the dream of a 1CC started growing in me. There was no essential difficulty remaining. OK, I was still sadly inconsistent on Acts III thru V. But I had conquered Act VI, so that should be no problem.
In fact, I now think the main obstacle to mastering the earlier Acts is that they are not hard enough! They don't force you through sheer trauma and repetition to memorize every step along the way. But I got myself to draw a few maps, and make notes about the difficult spots, and the rest of the game fell into place relatively quickly.


NG has immense replay value, and it gets much more fun with knowledge and skill. My first half-dozen wins with continues were graceless mockeries of ninja-hood. I'm still not where I want to be. But I'm good enough to have the kind of experience I think the designers would've hoped for me to have.

[BIL]

Hell of a debut post, makes me want to fire up NG1 right now. Welcome aboard!

The flying ninja part of 6-2's first floor always makes me uneasy, specifically landing the big jump at the end. Easy enough to mow through them and the bulk of their projectiles with JS, but also easy to get tagged by a late shot.

The surface simplicity of his pattern (sweep L/R and shoot) hides a subtle phase difference between his two repeated behaviors, which frustrates rote player patterns. You have to develop a good sense of timing and anticipation, and it helps to actively visualize whether your attack will succeed or be punished. The shots' homing behavior adds another layer of subtlety as you must learn where to draw the fire and how to evade it.

Yes - using the interplay of Jaquio's movement and the tracking shots to create a passively deadly boss is a genius bit of economic design, I think. You effectively need an entry and exit strategy for every attack, with a very tight margin on both. No matter how many times you've seen it, it can tangle you up horribly if you're at all sloppy.

(in that event, a key bit of advice is "stop drop and roll," haha. If you get tagged, hit the deck and let the flames die down!)

[blackoak]

yeah, great post with lots of insight! you've inspired me to revisit NG sooner rather than later.

[Perikles]

While we're on the topic of tough games where you have to practice quite a bit in order to properly beat them: I just beat Metal Warriors (SNES, no SFC release for that one) on one credit/life for the very first time. I've played through the game a couple years back, but I had to use every continue to do so. Now I finally put this teeth-gnashingly difficult game to rest. Most action platformers on the system tend to be quite easy; it's not too demanding to beat titles like Akumajou Dracula (XX), Assault Suits Valken, GS Mikami, Hagane or Zenki on one credit or on one life, Metal Warriors definitely is the exception to this rule.

It starts out fairly simple, the first four missions are a breeze. The fifth stage starts to show some resistance, and by the time you reach the sixth mission you know that this is not going to be a walk in the park like Valken. Jeeps that fire turbo-propelled rockets at you, flying mines that chase you around, little vents that fire deadly grenades at a disgustingly high rate, tons of platforms that crush you instantly, you name it. I love the fact that there is no traditional energy bar in this game, instead your mecha of choice changes colors dependent on how much damage it took (it starts out in a shiny red and goes darker until it is almost brown). It stresses the point that you as the player have to make wise judgment on whether you want to proceed with your vehicle or not. Makes for some extremely tense moments!

I don't quite like the boss fights, though. There is no finesse or style to them at all, they are just battles of attrition. The final boss in particular is merely a bullet sponge who covers way too much room to be evaded. You just shoot a lot and hope for the best. The missions themselves on the other hand tend to be well thought out even though some of them are a tad bit too long for their own good (especially mission 6). It's great fun to blast through them once you get to know them, it emphasizes the fact that you're landing strategically important strikes at the enemy's neuralgic points. I also adore the artwork to this game, it is just as detailed and rich as Valken. The music is unfortunately repetitive, you get to hear the same three or four tracks over and over and over again. Not that they're bad per se, far from it, but they start to get on your nerves.

I'd definitely recommend Metal Warriors to everyone who likes some rockin' mecha action and isn't afraid of some brutal difficulty spikes. It's most certainly not as polished as Valken or Ex-Ranza, yet it is still a very solid game. What do you guys think of it?

[Imhotep]

got the hard mode 1lc on Dragon Fighter yesterday. Stage 5 kept beeing the biggest hurdle. I was doing better once I realized the turrets are kinda slow to track your position, it's possible to kill them quickly. A viable tactic is also to fly over them and leave them behind via the fighter's faster scrolling speed. Half a dragon bar is sufficient for the boss, so leaving enemies behind is ok. Still a few messy spots left in that stage.

Stage 6 (shmup stage) is unaltered on hard mode, it's more of a (competent) bonus stage anyway.

Great action game, I'm still finding ways to progress more elegantly. I think respawning enemies in a manual scrolling action game are a blessing, they keep you on your toes and create some great improvisational setups. Stage 4 doesn't have them and it was by far the one I've had down at the earliest.

8/10

[dojo_b]

OTOH, respawning enemies can also make it easier to master a game, if you have the discipline to backtrack and replay tough sections that didn't go smoothly. I saw good results when I started doing this on some of NG1's choke-points (where the level layout allowed it).

Re: Metal Warriors---I'm tempted by the mecha-suit subgenre, although I'm not sure where best to start. My sidescroller playing has followed a quasi-evolutionary path, from hop-n-bops (my first love) to hack-n-slash and some rudimentary shooting action. I've yet to really dive into a game whose mechanics are complex or unintuitive, although it sounds like these games can be rewarding (e.g. Hagane, Alien Soldier). Metal Storm was a good way to experience a bit of the lumbering mecha-suit vibe while keeping a pure simplicity of gameplay style.

[BIL]

I've unfortunately not played Metal Warriors much at all (my chronic non-JP release laziness strikes again ). I should really address that, mecha sidescrolling is dear to my heart... Front Mission: Gun Hazard is the other SNES/SFC example I've yet to play much.

An oddball I've been meaning to look into is Metal Mech aka Metal Flame Psybuster. Like MW and GH it too lets you exit your mech and run about on-foot. No idea if it's any good or not. I will say The Killing Game Show (MD) unfortunately isn't great, having that same irritating dearth of collision/hitstun as Robocop VS Terminator on the same format.

dojo, either Assault Suits Valken (SFC) or its doujin tribute Gigantic Army (PC) would probably be good entry points. Both are a snap to control, with eminently hefty mecha handling. Valken's the cooler game by far with a varied, pricelessly filmic campaign, but GA has more hardcore action with greater enemy numbers and firepower. Neither's terribly difficult (on default, in GA's case), but they're both substantial, memorable games.

Valken's predecessor Assault Suit Leynos is a favourite of mine with its vast battlefields and nerve-wracking randomised enemy spawns, but the combination of primitive controls and ruthless difficulty make it a decidedly acquired taste. It really does make you feel like a lone unit hightailing it over deadly ground. Ex-Ranza and Assault Suit Leynos 2 are more complex than Valken with similarly user-friendly interfaces; I highly recommend the former, it's brimming over with Toshio Toyota (Maneuver Cepter Granada)'s blend of arcade-inspired pacing and minute attention to detail.

A quick primer on how to kick and vehicularly assault baddies in Ranza:

[Ghegs]

An oddball I've been meaning to look into is Metal Mech aka Metal Flame Psybuster. Like MW and GH it too lets you exit your mech and run about on-foot. No idea if it's any good or not.

I have it and it's not very good, I'm sad to say. The concept is good, but the execution is lacking. The mech is clunky and not in the good way, it's often difficult to hit enemies which also respawn constantly, and the levels are HUGE. You have to search through them for keys and power-ups. Admittedly I've only played it to the second stage, but it hasn't exactly enticed me to play more. I can see the game could sort of be fun, but it'd certainly be an acquired taste.

Very cool cover art on both FC and NES releases, though.

--

Playing Dragon Fighter myself now. The boss fights are cool, but the stages aren't very interesting...

[Perikles]

Front Mission: Gun Hazard is the other SNES/SFC example I've yet to play much.

Gun Hazard excels at achieving exactly what it is setting out to do. It's most definitely a typical Squaresoft action RPG and as such heavily balanced toward the RPG elements. If you don't buy proper equipment and level it up, you're going to do measly damage, merely chipping away the health bars of more resilient foes. On the other hand, it is very easy to get obscenely overpowered, especially considering all the curative items you can get in the shops. The game's strongest suit are the absolutely astounding visual department and the grandiose soundtrack (Warning Two, Successful Attack, Genoce).

You're not going to get even a compromised or watered-down Valken, thus, you're better off setting your expectations accordingly. It takes quite a few hours until you even get to experience every type of weaponry and auxiliary item, so prepare yourself for a slow start. There are some great set pieces at the end of the game (I especially love the Via Blanca), but for every exciting mission there are one to two fairly bland ones. I'd certainly recommend the game if you're willing to accept its RPG heavy nature, but you probably should steer away from it if you want yet another arcadey mecha game.

[Imhotep]

OTOH, respawning enemies can also make it easier to master a game, if you have the discipline to backtrack and replay tough sections that didn't go smoothly. I saw good results when I started doing this on some of NG1's choke-points (where the level layout allowed it).

I was thinking of constantly spawning enemies rather than respawning enemies, Dragon Fighter doesn't scroll backwards. Stages 1-3 and 5 each have one type of enemy that keeps spawning.

Other games that have this are Mr. Heli and Magician Lord (rank dependent).