Info on Cave's "Danmaku Tengoku" and "Oni Death" from IKD

[GSK]

Gaming.moe just posted a fairly lengthy interview with IKD, conducted in 2010 but not published in English until now. The interview covers a lot of ground on topics that most of you will already be familiar with, but what might be of most interest to this board is a little background on Danmaku Tengoku and Oni Death, two games that were announced by CAVE early on and listed in their Shooting History book but never shown publicly. Here's a pull:

Cave recently published a book about the company’s shooting game development history. Included in the book is a timeline of all of the company’s developed games, and it lists two which were cancelled: Oni Death and Danmaku Tengoku. Fans are curious about these titles – do you remember anything about them?

*laughs* Oh wow… I really don’t remember all that much. *laughs” Danmaku Tengoku, eh? That was a game where we first tried to use pre-rendered sprites. There was a bit of a boom in games using that graphic style, and we wanted to try a shooting game with it. We planned to use a PCB with new specs to make the game look better. Atlus’s PCB didn’t have the color depth we needed. We got to about the halfway point and realized… this game really wasn’t looking good at all. *laughs* We didn’t really have the right tools and know-how for this hardware. “How do we make this look good?” We struggled with it. The large graphics looked alright, but they looked awful when they were scaled down. Since most of the graphics in shooting games are smaller… that was a big problem. The graphics looked bad and the hardware was a problem, so eventually we cancelled it and decided to just focus on Dodonpachi instead.

As for Oni Death… *laughs* to be honest, that was one I wasn’t involved with at all. It was another department doing the work on that one… we were doing Dodonpachi at the time. Hmm… I actually haven’t the foggiest idea why it was cancelled. The graphics and the concept seemed good… and then one day, *poof*. “Where did it go?” *laughs*

So you could say Oni Death… died. *laughs*

*laughs* Yes!

Did any of the concepts or systems for these games wind up getting repurposed later down the line?

Nothing from the two games ever made it elsewhere. *laughs*

The full interview is here: http://gaming.moe/?p=757 It covers lots of topics besides, including the rationale behind region-free X360 releases, drama with Deathsmiles 2, how they almost quit arcade dev until Dodonpachi II convinced them to come back, etc. Enjoy!

[system11]

Even though I don’t intend for it to happen, a lot of the games I work on come out feeling very similar.

[CloudyMusic]

It's a good reminder that so many of the things that fans speculate about endlessly just boil down to numbers on a balance sheet, and that's true for any business that wants to stay in business. The parts about Deathsmiles II and Progear were really interesting, too.

[cave hermit]

Great interview: It was interesting how IKD touched on western emulation (even if he kept it as brief as possible), and really western perception in general.

Also, there was an Akai Katana PCB made specifically for home use? What was that like?

[KAI]

Yep, you can find more info about the Limited Version on this HG101 article

So Ikeda likes Racing games? Cave made a few racers but he wasn't involved in any of them. Weird.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

While the gold changes made a lot of Limited Edition have less slowdown, I've found that you can get it to a more dramatic slowdown (slideshow mode basically) vs. the original in some parts. Whether that is a good or bad thing, I think it feels cool, but it turns some folks off. High scoring off bosses is pretty intense (one type/way) because you have to be right next to them with your option on them to suck out the greens. It has been a while since I checked the differences but I think some of the option string lengths are longer on the Limited Version so I think that sentence was also wrong. At least one of them. But maybe I'm remembering wrong.

[trap15]

Very interesting interview, was quite surprised to hear AMI was a subsidiary of IGS. Explains a lot.

[CStarFlare]

Yep, you can find more info about the Limited Version on this HG101 article

The article also mentions that Shin for Nesica is the same as the X360 version, but I could swear someone (sinmoon?) had a blog post about the differences between the versions. Does anyone know if the two are truly identical (excepting porting differences like slowdown)?

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

I don't know why slowdown would need to change if neither of them maxed out the hardware. Did they? I always assumed any slowdown would be programmed slowdown.

[iconoclast]

Yep, you can find more info about the Limited Version on this HG101 article

The article also mentions that Shin for Nesica is the same as the X360 version, but I could swear someone (sinmoon?) had a blog post about the differences between the versions. Does anyone know if the two are truly identical (excepting porting differences like slowdown)?

I know for sure that they added a bomb shield to the TLB in the Nesica version, for starters. There's got to be some other differences, they're probably just subtle ones that most people wouldn't notice.

[blackoak]

As someone who spends a lot of time reading and translating stuff like this, I have to say: great interview (and a great translation too, hats off). The comments about online integration with arcades is interesting. You can tell Ikeda was/is frustrated about the decline of the industry and its apparent conservatism. Have to agree with him about Progear, never liked that one personally. DDP II otoh...

[1up]

Wow that was an interesting read. Incredible that it was Dodonpachi II that changed their minds about getting out of the arcade bussiness.

[S_Fang]

I have to say, the french interviewer knows the topic like its belly button, questioning things like doujins and story/characters of a game. Too bad there wasn't the question about PC gaming and a possible shift by Cave to that platform like some smaller companies (Falcom do this), as well asking some opinions about Giga Wing's developers and their wide-screens' solution for vertical shmups.

Is cool that Ikeda likes/played God of War, is really a nice series. Hack and Slashers seems to be the only arcade experience that preserved both gameplay (granted, not so much by comparison to the earlier ones) and notoriety without being a fighting game or a sport game.

I concour regarding Progear being a rough game: how can you dodge those tight bullet patterns without a visible hit-box on an horizontal plane, unless you remember the EXACT spot?

Nonetheless, it was a very insightful yet sad interview, if we consider how Cave is reduced in these days.

[IseeThings]

what I find interesting is that it seems to state that Vertical games are easier to play than Horizontal games, so can be made more difficult without seeming unfair.

while I'm sure there is some science / playtesting logic behind this it surprises me, is ProGear actually easier to play if you rotate all the controls and screen to be of a vertical orientation?

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

I don't know where the game was in development when they changed the orientation but certainly in the final version with so many bullet affected by gravity it is easier in hori. The way it ended up being in regard to difficulty only affected some players. To me the first loop is one of the easiest cave clears.

[chempop]

What a great read, both the interviewer and translator nailed it.

is ProGear actually easier to play if you rotate all the controls and screen to be of a vertical orientation?

My guess would be no because a lot of the bullet patterns have gravity/downward drift to them.

[STG]

is ProGear actually easier to play if you rotate all the controls and screen to be of a vertical orientation?

My guess would be no because a lot of the bullet patterns have gravity/downward drift to them.

I agree, I couldn't imagine playing the last part of the stage 6 boss with a rotated controller/monitor. The way the bullets get tossed up like a softball pitch would be tricky to read vertically.

[Teufel_in_Blau]

Wow, thanks for sharing, that was a great read. The interviewer was VERY good informed.

[RHE]

I wonder if he ever played Fast Striker in Akihabara arcades

[Doctor Butler]

Great read! Thanks.

[supergrafx77]

....how they almost quit arcade dev until Dodonpachi II convinced them to come back, etc.

Very interesting read.
What was most interesting to me was the statements IKD made concerning arcades' decline, specifying its current state at the moment which is fundamentally killing the shmup arcade scene.
This is made clear to me when IKD admits that NESiCAxLive does not have enough "OOOMFH," to save the arcade scene, along with pointing out that Deathsmiles II, their hi-res venture, ....was crap (due to venturing into hires territory which it as a company had no experience with).
Although IKD doesn't specifically say the Viewlix cabs are bad, he admits their games do not work with them due to part of the screen getting cut off (as well as looking like shit on those flat panel pos).
This isn't to say there is no place for the Viewlix, as I would think that fighting games would need higher res in some cases to appeal to the masses.
Which convinces me further that specifically arcade shmups are best on native lo-res, and if not all shmups, at least those developed by Cave since they are good at 15khz.
They've mastered the SH3 hardware (IKD mentions earlier pcbs (pgm, cps2 being nightmares), and what do they do, quit? Because all the 15khz cabs are now all of a sudden low tech and being shipped overseas to the gaijin countries??? And now all there is at offer at the few higher end arcades that exist are basically these Nesica PS4 XboxOne things that people can experience at home=why go to the arcade?
Which further confirms to me that Taito/Sega or whoever, should still make 15khz cabs or at least replacement tubes for the niche shmup genre. WHICH DOES EXIST. Although we may all be in a similar generation/age group.
So now at this point, I can't really completely blame Cave. It's the candy cab makers and Toshiba that have betrayed Cave.
Taito/Sega, or anyone else should still be making lo-res 15khz cabs for vertical orientation for the arcade shmup genre.
Toshiba should still be producing replacement MS9 Nanao tubes for these cabs.
Cave really needs to stop making these phone apps and get back to its roots. I'd say as shitty as the PGM or CPS2 hardware was, a Samsung or iPhone is A LOT shittier.
It's all really so stupid to me.

[Elixir]

It should be noted that this interview was in 2010, and that they at least tried the NESiCA platform with Akai Katana afterwards.

I've heard reports of the AK NESiCA version having input delay, and among other things I can still see why they would be reluctant to use the platform.

[Cata]

So now at this point, I can't really completely blame Cave. It's the candy cab makers and Toshiba that have betrayed Cave.
Taito/Sega, or anyone else should still be making lo-res 15khz cabs for vertical orientation for the arcade shmup genre.
Toshiba should still be producing replacement MS9 Nanao tubes for these cabs.
Cave really needs to stop making these phone apps and get back to its roots. I'd say as shitty as the PGM or CPS2 hardware was, a Samsung or iPhone is A LOT shittier.
It's all really so stupid to me.

I can guarantee you there are numerous spreadsheets in the offices of the aforementioned companies that will guarantee that never happening

Not saying I'm opposed to it, its just that even Sega is starting to close down their arcades entirely so I think they have to get their priorities sorted out in so many different ways that making older hardware for a small genre, however fantastic it might be, is just entirely out of the equation at this point

[ACSeraph]

Nesica and All.Net definitely are the future though, especially for smaller arcades outside big cities. I live way up in the countryside of Tohoku, and I've gotta say those things are a godsend. Even small arcades are almost guaranteed to get the majority of new release fighting games and lots of other interesting stuff too. Were it not for those machines there would be almost no shmups available to play at all.

And they are popular too, it's difficult to even get on the machines if you are there on a Saturday. I've had to literally beat off groups of DOA players before with my Ayane to play some Caladrius. Pretty amusing to go from a 15 win DOA streak to a high scoring shmup 1cc.

As for the lag on the machines, I've heard that it's really only an issue on some of the older viewlix cabs. I certainly can't detect any, and I don't have any issues doing my Caladrius runs on the All.Net cabs either.

[cicada88]

Thanks for posting this!

[S_Fang]

So now at this point, I can't really completely blame Cave. It's the candy cab makers and Toshiba that have betrayed Cave.
Taito/Sega, or anyone else should still be making lo-res 15khz cabs for vertical orientation for the arcade shmup genre.
Toshiba should still be producing replacement MS9 Nanao tubes for these cabs.
Cave really needs to stop making these phone apps and get back to its roots. I'd say as shitty as the PGM or CPS2 hardware was, a Samsung or iPhone is A LOT shittier.
It's all really so stupid to me.

I can guarantee you there are numerous spreadsheets in the offices of the aforementioned companies that will guarantee that never happening

Not saying I'm opposed to it, its just that even Sega is starting to close down their arcades entirely so I think they have to get their priorities sorted out in so many different ways that making older hardware for a small genre, however fantastic it might be, is just entirely out of the equation at this point

Cave should find a PC programmer or a company specialized in such things and go there, as the STG crowd is much more present and bigger than consoles(full of FPS) and phones(full of strategy games).
Granted, that would be hard and very limited, but they should have a superior budget compared to other doujin software houses.

[emphatic]

If we're discussion cabinets, let's just hope that a better Vewlix cab comes along, with a really expensive monitor (arcade exclusive) that can compete with the low res glow and with native RGB support. I love my MS9s to death, but I'm open for improved technology.

[Stan]

what I find interesting is that it seems to state that Vertical games are easier to play than Horizontal games, so can be made more difficult without seeming unfair.

while I'm sure there is some science / playtesting logic behind this it surprises me, is ProGear actually easier to play if you rotate all the controls and screen to be of a vertical orientation?

If I remembet right, its explained by IKD himself in that french documentary about STGs.
In horizontal it is more difficult for the brain to handle the bullets as they come from the side and are seen by one eye and by the other a bit later.

[Despatche]

(Falcom do this)

Actually, Falcom developed almost entirely for computers before moving completely to PSP and Vita within the last decade. What little that's on Steam is all third-party.

I concour regarding Progear being a rough game: how can you dodge those tight bullet patterns without a visible hit-box on an horizontal plane, unless you remember the EXACT spot?

That's every bullet hell game ever.

[S_Fang]

(Falcom do this)

Actually, Falcom developed almost entirely for computers before moving completely to PSP and Vita within the last decade. What little that's on Steam is all third-party.

Although, some of their games got PC releases in China, like Trails of Blue and Ys Seven, but I don't know if those ports are handled by them or by a third-party. Still, they demostrate the duability of games on PC market and not just doujin.

I concour regarding Progear being a rough game: how can you dodge those tight bullet patterns without a visible hit-box on an horizontal plane, unless you remember the EXACT spot?

That's every bullet hell game ever.

But some of them (the first decade of 2000 and after) has a visible hit-box which allows a precise dodging. I'm not saying that the games lacking of visible hit-box are bad, but at least they didn't have such density that coerce you to micro dodging and it relay on macro dodging.