Fudoh's ode to old display technology
Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
It's more accurate to say that BVM level quality might not show any appreciable difference with some sources.
It's not BVM-level and it's not a good deal with the screen burn. Keep looking.
To give you an idea what you should be looking for, I got a couple PVM-20L2 monitors with BKM-129X boards installed for $150. One has a tiny smudge in the AG coating or maybe a chip in the glass but is perfect otherwise.
If you're going to pay big bucks for a monitor, certainly aim higher.
It's not BVM-level and it's not a good deal with the screen burn. Keep looking.
To give you an idea what you should be looking for, I got a couple PVM-20L2 monitors with BKM-129X boards installed for $150. One has a tiny smudge in the AG coating or maybe a chip in the glass but is perfect otherwise.
If you're going to pay big bucks for a monitor, certainly aim higher.
Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
IIRC correctly I paid £130 for the Ikegami but that included shipping in a proper flight case.tacoguy64 wrote:Oh wow, bvm level picutre quality? Thanks for that bit of input. I found another Ikegmai of the same model, but the seller here is telling me that its in perfect condition. If thats the case then i might jump on this one and take a chance. The asking price is $200 but that's before shipping.
Keep a lookout for the 80 series Ikegami monitors they have the digital controls and are a lot newer.
Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
Currently trying to setup my BVM-A20F1U on Groovymame. Having mixed success.
Does anyone know if these monitors will happily sync to the majority of arcade resolutions and timings? Or do they primarily like refreshes very close to 50 and 60Hz only?
In any event, I'll post my VMMaker.ini monitor settings once I've settled on something that's useable.
Does anyone know if these monitors will happily sync to the majority of arcade resolutions and timings? Or do they primarily like refreshes very close to 50 and 60Hz only?
In any event, I'll post my VMMaker.ini monitor settings once I've settled on something that's useable.
Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
On another subject, what's the maintenance menu on a BVM for? What functions hide within?
I've tried 1111 and 9999 as the password with no luck.
I've tried 1111 and 9999 as the password with no luck.
Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
Fudoh mentioned in the past that the A series (and seemingly only the A series) is picky about sync. Neo Geo was mentioned as a particular problem case, so you could try that one out if it seems worthwhile. Sounds like you're having exactly the results expected, sorry.
Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
Ah ok, for a moment it seemed like they were being hyped up to be at the bvm level. I was able to find one in excellent condition for $150 pre shipped. But it does come in its original boxing as well. That would put it closer in the range of what CMcK paid for his.
Believe me i dont want to spend much on these monitors. Especially after hearing about how cheap some of you guys got yours for. But so far in all my searching i have found nothing close to a good deal.
Believe me i dont want to spend much on these monitors. Especially after hearing about how cheap some of you guys got yours for. But so far in all my searching i have found nothing close to a good deal.
Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
I picked up a sony 28dx200u here in the UK, and the picture using my SNES is strange, seems like it is 480i, swear it looks interlaced, If I turn the DRC function to DRC50 it seems to smooth it out to make it look more like 480p, but yeah pretty much can't see any scanlines at all so very different picture to my BVM.
Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
I think once you've seen BVM, you can't go back.
Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
+1 though 29" consumer Trinitron tubes with SCART are a close second, once you've dialled in purity and convergence behind the yokejedman wrote:I think once you've seen BVM, you can't go back.


Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
Jedman's Sony is likely a 100Hz set with digital processing, frame or field doubling...
Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
You know, I've come to really appreciate my B&O CRT for retro gaming. The image quality didn't impress me at start, but grew on me subsequently. But what really makes it my top choice is the classic B&O design aesthetics. I do have a BVM, but its bulky grey box is an eyesore compared to the unobtrusive slim profile of the MX4200, so the BVM just sits in its box while the MX gets all the action.
I will soon buy another B&O TV so I have two, and in the future perhaps more as backup.
I think I want to try a BeoVision 1 this time, its design is to die for.
I will soon buy another B&O TV so I have two, and in the future perhaps more as backup.
I think I want to try a BeoVision 1 this time, its design is to die for.
Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
Stumbled across this 1998 ad for a Philips plasma, thought I'd share it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piIOf3rTcP8
$15,000 and not even component inputs apparently?
$15,000 and not even component inputs apparently?

Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
yes It seems you can't switch the 100hz and processing off, looks awful.Fudoh wrote:Jedman's Sony is likely a 100Hz set with digital processing, frame or field doubling...
The picture settings are strange to.
The game present seems to have more a more accurate picture but you can't adjust any settings apart from the contrast, while the personal setting gives objects strange halo's and distorts the shapes of some things, text is a different shape and circles and not circular. noticeable in the final fantasy VII menu screens where the materia is not circular lol.
Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
Didnt know that Plasma technology was so mature in '98. I got my first in 2007, I can only imagine how state of the art that panel must have been back in '98.
Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
Hi guys, just got home to my PVM-14L5...and I already have a few dumb questions:
IGNORE THIS PART KTHX
1. I'm using my Wii and component cables (NTSC), but the PVM is only displaying black and white! I've turned off Mono mode using the lit panel buttons, and Blue Only mode is not on either. What gives/how can I change this?
2. Will I need a pair of external speakers to get audio?
IGNORE THIS PART ABOVE KTHX
Edit: I am the biggest idiot in the world. I had BOTH Blue Only and Mono modes set together at the same time. I'm still trying to get accustomed to the LED Panels. Note to self: Orange means On, Green means Off!
To make up for this idiocy I shall post some pics of the PVM later.
IGNORE THIS PART KTHX
1. I'm using my Wii and component cables (NTSC), but the PVM is only displaying black and white! I've turned off Mono mode using the lit panel buttons, and Blue Only mode is not on either. What gives/how can I change this?
2. Will I need a pair of external speakers to get audio?
IGNORE THIS PART ABOVE KTHX
Edit: I am the biggest idiot in the world. I had BOTH Blue Only and Mono modes set together at the same time. I'm still trying to get accustomed to the LED Panels. Note to self: Orange means On, Green means Off!
To make up for this idiocy I shall post some pics of the PVM later.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
I think I ended up buying the Ikegami that you were looking at on ebay. If anyone is interested in how the Ikegami's compare to the Sony pro monitors:
IMO, this model is similar in quality and spec to the high end Sony BVM's and it is in a differemt league to all of the PVM's i have seen.This isnt suprising as it originaly retailed for around $16,000.
For people who like the super defined scanlines that you get on broadcast monitors, then that Ikegami is worth a look. It has a fine dot pitch of .31mm so you get a horizontal resolution of over 900 lines, just like on the BVM201fu. It has rgb and Component inputs as standard (on RGBs BNCs), plus it has space for extra input cards. It has all of the image control you will ever need built in on a crazy video tape sized remote that slides out from under the screen. It uses analogue style pots for image adjustments but with an on-screen display so you get the best of both worlds. Quick adjustments of the rgb color balance is great for mame as the default colors often look wrong. It has memory to save 3 sets of settings and a button to reset it to factory calibration whenever you like.
The screen is curved, so it looks more like an old arcade monitor except with perfect convergence and colors. Mine also had no geometry issues that I could see. The one I bought was made in 2004 so this is a late (ish) model in crt terms. I actually wanted a curved screen but I know some people like flat. The monitor casing has square sides (for rack mounting) so it can be easily positioned for vertical games. It is very, very, very heavy though.
It worked at 240p obviously but I managed to get an image at up to 1024 x 768I. I didn't test it at any higher resolutions than that but that doesn't mean it wouldn't work. For mame use, 15khz was most important to me and it worked well at 256 lines (54hz) for games like mortal kombat. My Sony Trinitron tv couldn't sync to anything below 57hz. The ikegami needs a clean sync btw. I used an extron rgb interface for this.
The fine dot pitch makes text in windows easy to read. I used a 800x600 res for my desktop (interlaced). Anything higher seemed to Flicker too much.
It did well with interlaced modes like 480i (which isn't suprising). My tri-sync arcade monitor has terrible flicker with anything interlaced so 480i has to be scaled to 480p etc.
The downside to this monitor for me is that fine dot pitch. Arcade monitors typically use A tubes (same as consumer tv's) which have a .8mm dot pitch. The M tube on most pro monitors gives an image that it closer to what you find on a regular crt PC monitor, even at native 240p. scanlines are thick and black. Graphics look blocky like they do on an HD Monitor. To be fair, if you sit further back from the screen, it becomes less of a problem and for a lot of people, the amazing contrast, color death and convergence will make up for the jagged edges. The contrast is particularly amazing and I can see details that I had never seen before.
The 20" tube gives 19" of viewable screen. I prefer a larger one so I ended up buying a brand new Billabs BL25C90T 24.8" tri-sync arcade monitor with a flat crt. Even with the amazing quality of the Ikegami, CGA games look better on the arcade monitor with it's appropriately corse A tube.
People who were looking for a BVM20F1U but have been put off by the price some of them sell for on ebay, should check out this IKegami. My one was going for $175 (although I ended up getting it free thanks to fedex) while the only BVM20F1U on ebay at that time was going for over $600.
There are other Ikegami models on ebay but not all are in the same league. The TM20-17rh, for example, had an original rrp of around $3,000 so, while I haven't seen it, I would guess that it is closer to a Sony PVM in quality than a BVM. Ikegami also make much cheaper security monitors which should be avoided for this purpose. You want one of their "Grade-I master monitors".
There is also a series which is one generation newer with models like the HTM2004. I haven't seen these but I believe that some do both SD and HD. There is a 19" one with a flat screen too. I have no idea if these upscale CGA graphics like some of the progressive scan consumer tv's do.
IMO, this model is similar in quality and spec to the high end Sony BVM's and it is in a differemt league to all of the PVM's i have seen.This isnt suprising as it originaly retailed for around $16,000.
For people who like the super defined scanlines that you get on broadcast monitors, then that Ikegami is worth a look. It has a fine dot pitch of .31mm so you get a horizontal resolution of over 900 lines, just like on the BVM201fu. It has rgb and Component inputs as standard (on RGBs BNCs), plus it has space for extra input cards. It has all of the image control you will ever need built in on a crazy video tape sized remote that slides out from under the screen. It uses analogue style pots for image adjustments but with an on-screen display so you get the best of both worlds. Quick adjustments of the rgb color balance is great for mame as the default colors often look wrong. It has memory to save 3 sets of settings and a button to reset it to factory calibration whenever you like.
The screen is curved, so it looks more like an old arcade monitor except with perfect convergence and colors. Mine also had no geometry issues that I could see. The one I bought was made in 2004 so this is a late (ish) model in crt terms. I actually wanted a curved screen but I know some people like flat. The monitor casing has square sides (for rack mounting) so it can be easily positioned for vertical games. It is very, very, very heavy though.
It worked at 240p obviously but I managed to get an image at up to 1024 x 768I. I didn't test it at any higher resolutions than that but that doesn't mean it wouldn't work. For mame use, 15khz was most important to me and it worked well at 256 lines (54hz) for games like mortal kombat. My Sony Trinitron tv couldn't sync to anything below 57hz. The ikegami needs a clean sync btw. I used an extron rgb interface for this.
The fine dot pitch makes text in windows easy to read. I used a 800x600 res for my desktop (interlaced). Anything higher seemed to Flicker too much.
It did well with interlaced modes like 480i (which isn't suprising). My tri-sync arcade monitor has terrible flicker with anything interlaced so 480i has to be scaled to 480p etc.
The downside to this monitor for me is that fine dot pitch. Arcade monitors typically use A tubes (same as consumer tv's) which have a .8mm dot pitch. The M tube on most pro monitors gives an image that it closer to what you find on a regular crt PC monitor, even at native 240p. scanlines are thick and black. Graphics look blocky like they do on an HD Monitor. To be fair, if you sit further back from the screen, it becomes less of a problem and for a lot of people, the amazing contrast, color death and convergence will make up for the jagged edges. The contrast is particularly amazing and I can see details that I had never seen before.
The 20" tube gives 19" of viewable screen. I prefer a larger one so I ended up buying a brand new Billabs BL25C90T 24.8" tri-sync arcade monitor with a flat crt. Even with the amazing quality of the Ikegami, CGA games look better on the arcade monitor with it's appropriately corse A tube.
People who were looking for a BVM20F1U but have been put off by the price some of them sell for on ebay, should check out this IKegami. My one was going for $175 (although I ended up getting it free thanks to fedex) while the only BVM20F1U on ebay at that time was going for over $600.
There are other Ikegami models on ebay but not all are in the same league. The TM20-17rh, for example, had an original rrp of around $3,000 so, while I haven't seen it, I would guess that it is closer to a Sony PVM in quality than a BVM. Ikegami also make much cheaper security monitors which should be avoided for this purpose. You want one of their "Grade-I master monitors".
There is also a series which is one generation newer with models like the HTM2004. I haven't seen these but I believe that some do both SD and HD. There is a 19" one with a flat screen too. I have no idea if these upscale CGA graphics like some of the progressive scan consumer tv's do.
Ed Oscuro wrote:Hmm, check out the Ikegami TM20-90R on eBay.
I was torn about mentioning it...it seems like a really decent price. I think I want HD though so I'll concede it for now (but once you see the prices people want for the HD sets, well...)
Fudoh mentioned, some time back, that Lawfer got an Ikegami of some sort. You might try looking him up for info, though he probably had a different set entirely.
Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
Ive also heard that PS2 RGB may be slightly better than component out for 480i and 240p titles. I personally use a PS2 slim and I have to say that the component out appears to be pretty flawless on my F4500 plasma. Even 480i looks great on it, especially on titles that allow you to turn off the flicker filter (GOW for ex.).Ed Oscuro wrote: PS2 is an interesting case. Fudoh has asked me about that before with my systems, and I don't doubt it does appear in some cases, but I wasn't able to find it. It might just be the slim units I was using. There might be some other variables - difference between NTSC and PAL regions, too.
Can anyone shed any light on what sources / console revisions exhibit the most obvious differences?
Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
Anyone with experience in regards to the Sony LCDs that came to replace the PVMs?
I've been offered a Sony LMD-1410 - but really won't bother if experience outthere says they are garbage for our use
I've been offered a Sony LMD-1410 - but really won't bother if experience outthere says they are garbage for our use

Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
They do 240p, 480i/p, 576i, 720p, 1080i.Classicgamer wrote:There is a 19" one with a flat screen too. I have no idea if these upscale CGA graphics like some of the progressive scan consumer tv's do.
Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
All the caveats of LCD technology will still apply here. Not worth it in most cases, IMO. It's a 640x480 panel which sounds interesting, but that also means it might behave just like a regular TV VGA input in regards to 720x480 sampling. 240p handling and input lag are also two big unknowns.mchay wrote:Anyone with experience in regards to the Sony LCDs that came to replace the PVMs?
I've been offered a Sony LMD-1410 - but really won't bother if experience outthere says they are garbage for our use
Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
Should I be concerned about buying a new BKM adapter card from a seller who's BVM broke down and so he removed the card? What I mean is the card shouldn't be the issue right? He says it's working
Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
Would any poster here, that is situated in the UK, be interested in a BVM-A14 ?
Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
Does he have a spare BVM to confirm the card is ok? If not I'd ask him what symptoms he has, in what way the BVM broken? Then look up that BKM card in a service manual to confirm what circuits are on it vs. other circuits that are on the BVM's other boards, and see if you can make a best-guess as to which circuit (and therefore which card) is likely causing the issues he's seeing.Huggers wrote:Should I be concerned about buying a new BKM adapter card from a seller who's BVM broke down and so he removed the card? What I mean is the card shouldn't be the issue right? He says it's working
If he doesn't have another compatible BVM for that BKM card though, it's hard to know for sure what is broken unless he's a tech or has experience. I'd want some sort of guarantee that he'll cover shipping it back and refund if you have any issues with the card...
Last edited by niall on Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
Also, I forgot to mention, for free.lui wrote:Would any poster here, that is situated in the UK, be interested in a BVM-A14 ?
Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
Hi everyone!
I've just registered and I'd really like to thank you all for the amazing amount of information you guys provided in this thread.
After reading up most of this thread, and after trying an upscaler and being "just ok" with it, I decided to take a shot at CRTs and bought 2 small Sony monitors (don't have much space around!): a PVM-14M4E and a BVM-14M4DE.
I have to say: these monitors are absolutely wonderful. Those Sony CRTs are definitely the way to go for old games! I'll probably sell my video processor and keep the Sony monitors.
This said, both work but have some small quirks.
The BVM takes a couple of minutes to get the "right" geometry (when I power it up the geometry is garbled and then stabilizes after some time) and there are RGB lines over the screen (they shouldn't be visible).
I do believe someone already said in this thread that both of these issues are due to failing capacitors and I have absolutely no problem recapping a monitor (hell, I've recapped countless audio equipment, even very old components) but this thing has >140 electrolytic capacitors in it, not counting ceramic and SMD ones.
Do I really have to replace all of them?
It can be definitely done but that would be quite an investment in components and time.
Can anyone point me to what caps should be replaced in particular?
The PVM, on the other hand, has no geometry issues but it has the white slightly "pinkish" and, more irritating, light colours produce a "dark halo" on their right.
This picture will explain this last problem better than my bad description (not a native english speaker, sometimes I struggle with precise, technical descriptions).

(sorry for the bad quality, I shot this with my mobile phone)
Again, I've read that those issues are related to failing caps, which brings forth the question already asked before: do I really need to replace all of the caps?
Honestly, I can kind of live with these problems but I'd really, really prefer to get them sorted out in a permanent way.
Both monitors have been tested with a Japanese Mega Drive with S-Video.
I'll be making RGB cables shortly.
Sorry for the wall of text and thanks for your patience!
I've just registered and I'd really like to thank you all for the amazing amount of information you guys provided in this thread.
After reading up most of this thread, and after trying an upscaler and being "just ok" with it, I decided to take a shot at CRTs and bought 2 small Sony monitors (don't have much space around!): a PVM-14M4E and a BVM-14M4DE.
I have to say: these monitors are absolutely wonderful. Those Sony CRTs are definitely the way to go for old games! I'll probably sell my video processor and keep the Sony monitors.

This said, both work but have some small quirks.
The BVM takes a couple of minutes to get the "right" geometry (when I power it up the geometry is garbled and then stabilizes after some time) and there are RGB lines over the screen (they shouldn't be visible).
I do believe someone already said in this thread that both of these issues are due to failing capacitors and I have absolutely no problem recapping a monitor (hell, I've recapped countless audio equipment, even very old components) but this thing has >140 electrolytic capacitors in it, not counting ceramic and SMD ones.
Do I really have to replace all of them?
It can be definitely done but that would be quite an investment in components and time.
Can anyone point me to what caps should be replaced in particular?
The PVM, on the other hand, has no geometry issues but it has the white slightly "pinkish" and, more irritating, light colours produce a "dark halo" on their right.
This picture will explain this last problem better than my bad description (not a native english speaker, sometimes I struggle with precise, technical descriptions).
Spoiler

(sorry for the bad quality, I shot this with my mobile phone)
Honestly, I can kind of live with these problems but I'd really, really prefer to get them sorted out in a permanent way.
Both monitors have been tested with a Japanese Mega Drive with S-Video.
I'll be making RGB cables shortly.

Sorry for the wall of text and thanks for your patience!

Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
The RGB lines seem to be normal on these CRTs, even on consumer ones, they are normally hidden by overscan. You get into the service menu by pressing menu, then enter+degauss, there you can adjust this easily, most relevant settings are video phase, v center and h/v size. The 240p suite can help you with that, you can use it if you have a flash cart for the MD.
There's also this, which isn't necessarily relevant, but thought I'd post it here anyway: http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/200 ... g02329.htm
Hopefully someone else can help with the other issue. I have a 14M4E myself which has a little green bias issue and some louder whine when its put into RGB mode, I think that particular line was a bit iffy as far as reliability goes. You can tweak red gain a bit and that can help with the red tint, but might not be a permanent fix.
There's also this, which isn't necessarily relevant, but thought I'd post it here anyway: http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/200 ... g02329.htm
Hopefully someone else can help with the other issue. I have a 14M4E myself which has a little green bias issue and some louder whine when its put into RGB mode, I think that particular line was a bit iffy as far as reliability goes. You can tweak red gain a bit and that can help with the red tint, but might not be a permanent fix.
Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
The RGB lines are indeed normal, but they should stay on the top of the screen and out of the way, not in the middle of the screen like I have 
Thanks for your link!
One thing isn't clear though...
The link says:
1. Replace C584 (2.2uF) with 1UF high ripple capacitor.
But the service manual says that C584 is a 1uF 160V cap and not a 2.2uF as stated.
Anyway... I'll source a 1uF 160V electrolytic cap and try to put it in and see what happens.
A good Panasonic FM series cap should do the trick, it's what I use in audio equipment where a high ripple, low ESR cap is needed

Thanks for your link!
One thing isn't clear though...
The link says:
1. Replace C584 (2.2uF) with 1UF high ripple capacitor.
But the service manual says that C584 is a 1uF 160V cap and not a 2.2uF as stated.
Anyway... I'll source a 1uF 160V electrolytic cap and try to put it in and see what happens.
A good Panasonic FM series cap should do the trick, it's what I use in audio equipment where a high ripple, low ESR cap is needed

Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
yes I am interested definitely.lui wrote:Also, I forgot to mention, for free.lui wrote:Would any poster here, that is situated in the UK, be interested in a BVM-A14 ?
Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
I've discovered that this kind of "shadow" to the right only happens with whites, not just bright colors.donluca wrote:The PVM, on the other hand, has no geometry issues but it has the white slightly "pinkish" and, more irritating, light colours produce a "dark halo" on their right.
This picture will explain this last problem better than my bad description (not a native english speaker, sometimes I struggle with precise, technical descriptions).
Spoiler
(sorry for the bad quality, I shot this with my mobile phone)
Any clue anyone?
Also, I've managed to fix the "pinkish white" playing around with color controls: now it's back to pure white (not perfect white like on my BVM, but definitely acceptable)

Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
Would anyone with a BVM 20D1FU be so kind as to take a picture of their settings in the BK board settings (all 9 pages) and their E board settings (all 7 pages)?
I reset the BVM to factory defaults because the geometry was all wack but now I get extremely loud buzzing and there are lines going across the screen line interference. If I set the contrast or brightness higher it gets extremely loud and the image will even ripple unless I turn it down. I'm hoping I didn't damage the deflection board.
If someone could please do this, I'm thinking maybe something is being overdriven with the default values.
The board settings are in the maintenance menu. You can get there by hitting menu -> extend menu and entering '1111' as the password (this is the default password, it may be 9999 or 0000, mine was 1111). Then going to the maintenance menu in the extend menu using the same password. There you can access the add-on board menus.
Would appreciate if someone could do this, thanks.
I reset the BVM to factory defaults because the geometry was all wack but now I get extremely loud buzzing and there are lines going across the screen line interference. If I set the contrast or brightness higher it gets extremely loud and the image will even ripple unless I turn it down. I'm hoping I didn't damage the deflection board.
If someone could please do this, I'm thinking maybe something is being overdriven with the default values.
The board settings are in the maintenance menu. You can get there by hitting menu -> extend menu and entering '1111' as the password (this is the default password, it may be 9999 or 0000, mine was 1111). Then going to the maintenance menu in the extend menu using the same password. There you can access the add-on board menus.
Would appreciate if someone could do this, thanks.