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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 4:30 pm 


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thea3on wrote:
The NES I'm using is unmodified (no AV mod done before). As well, I'd like to pass-through audio to etims board, do I simply take wires from pin 1 & 2 of the CPU and move them to pins A & B on etims board, then have it passed out through pin O to the multi-out?


Correct, connect CPU pin 1 to A, and pin 2 to B, and wire O to connections 11 and 12 on the multi-av output.

thea3on wrote:
I've read this cable will not work and I'll need one with the caps removed. Is this the case?


No, the cable should work just fine. You don't need to remove the 220uF caps on the NESRGB RGB output. If you want to bypass the capacitors on the NESRGB RGB lines, just connect from the + side of the capacitors instead of the pads on the edge of the PCB.

thea3on wrote:
I also ready funny things about using different pins for sync for rgb to work on the xrgb mini as per GameTechUS videos.


If you've recently purchased an NESRGB kit you should be fine to use CS# or PPUV connections for SYNC. Wire either to multi-av pin 3, 7, or 9, depending upon which pin your SNES RGB cable uses for SYNC. Try CS# first, and if you have issues switch to PPUV.

As seen on the previous page:
viletim wrote:
If you have version 1 board hardware (marked "NESRGB", bought on April 2014 or earlier) you should use PPUV for sync. This version has a crappy sync separation circuit. All other sync outputs have a bit of noise on them which may upset some digital processors. The PPUV signal, while being the original PPU video output, doesn't cause colour interference problem like the V signal does because it doesn't have any colour in it while the NESRGB board is operating.

If you have later hardware (marked NESRGB12) then all the signals with sync should be fine: PPUV, Y, V, CS#. I generally recommend the Y signal for most setups. The CS# is not really designed to drive a 75 ohm video input, but it should work (as well as any other console at least).


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:03 am 


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Location: Edmonton, AB
Thanks for the help!

Install was a success except for some major fiddling with wires as I was putting everything back together to make sure things didn't get pinched. I'm loving the crisp pixels with the jp-21 cable and xrgb-mini. I was worried for a bit though since my initial test was with Mario 3 and there was the wonky pallet shifting/sprites messing up on the right edge of the screen. I was concerned I broke the PPU until I discovered that it was normal but hidden via overscan on CRTs.

Thank you viletim for the awesome product!


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:39 pm 


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So... I've been working on cables and NESRGB related stuff for 2 weeks straight now with about 8 hours a day committed. My wife is really understanding and supportive, I'm pretty lucky haha. Anyways... I have constructed multiple SCART to Multiout connectors that are beautiful with the signal (I use CS# for sync which is basically the composite video through an EL1881, in other words it's beyond sufficient). As for my other cables that use an LM1881 for say an N64 (since composite video will cause nasty cross hatching), I have a switch installed on the SCART connector that allows to switch between composite video for sync and to the LM1881 for C-SYNC. I have also constructed SCART to BNC breakout cables that work beautifully. I have Sony PVM I use for RGB testing and for my LCD tv's, I use a cheap SCART to HDMI converter/upscaler (check out FUDOH's website, excellent source!). What is really surprising is that it is actually beyond decent at displaying my RGB outputing systems now (I got really lucky and checking to see if my SNES & N64 were RGB capable... and they both were!!! UN3 and NS1) and actually suppresses my desire to buy an XRGB mini. Buy anyways... yeah, I've been way to involved in this. I'll be making more cables and comparing them with Retro Consoles Accesories cables, Some other one from Sweden I bought, and of course the other varioues ones I constructed. Sorry for the rant.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:23 pm 


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Excellent. I am a firm believer in people making their own cables.

Take your wife out to dinner.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:47 pm 



Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 40
Hello,

I'm sure this has been answered numerous times before, but searching didn't yield concrete results. I just received Tim's NESRGB board. So I assume its the most recent version. I have a front loading NES. I want to wire it for expansion audio as well. I currently have a Famicom version of CV3, and a Gyromite 60 to 72 pin adapter. I plan on buying an Everdrive N8 in the near future. What do I need to know to get this to work?

Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:53 pm 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
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Location: Toronto, Canada
jamisonia wrote:
Hello,

I'm sure this has been answered numerous times before, but searching didn't yield concrete results. I just received Tim's NESRGB board. So I assume its the most recent version. I have a front loading NES. I want to wire it for expansion audio as well. I currently have a Famicom version of CV3, and a Gyromite 60 to 72 pin adapter. I plan on buying an Everdrive N8 in the near future. What do I need to know to get this to work?

Thanks.


I would reconsider putting it in a front loader. A lot of the games that use EXP audio on Famicom carts are in full size famicom carts (Lagrange Point, Most MMC5 games, etc). With the 60 to 72 pin adapter, it will not fit in the NES front loader. Top loader or Famicom AV are much better choices.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:29 pm 


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leonk wrote:
jamisonia wrote:
Hello,

I'm sure this has been answered numerous times before, but searching didn't yield concrete results. I just received Tim's NESRGB board. So I assume its the most recent version. I have a front loading NES. I want to wire it for expansion audio as well. I currently have a Famicom version of CV3, and a Gyromite 60 to 72 pin adapter. I plan on buying an Everdrive N8 in the near future. What do I need to know to get this to work?

Thanks.


I would reconsider putting it in a front loader. A lot of the games that use EXP audio on Famicom carts are in full size famicom carts (Lagrange Point, Most MMC5 games, etc). With the 60 to 72 pin adapter, it will not fit in the NES front loader. Top loader or Famicom AV are much better choices.


If you want best quality for Famicom expansion audio I would strongly recommend the original Famicom (with Famicom PA board) instead of a top-loader or AV Famicom. OG Famicoms aren't too expensive, but the NESRGB kit for it is higher priced due to the Famicom PA board.

With a top loader you have to use an alternate pin on the cart slot. Wiring a cart pin to the audio circuit will add bus noise. CPU1/2 only with the NESRGB typically has extremely clean output (US top- and front- loaders only).

I've found from several AV Famicom installs that the stock audio circuit in the AV Famicom is overall better than using the circuit on the NESRGB, as it doesn't compensate for the in/out cart audio pins like the Famicom PA board is designed to do.


Last edited by RGB32E on Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:35 pm 


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One of these fixes the problem with the few carts that doesn't fit with an adapter. It also solves the biggest problem with front loaders; the spring-loaded cartridge slot. It's an additional cost though.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:21 pm 


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RGB32E wrote:
I've found from several AV Famicom installs that the stock audio circuit in the AV Famicom is overall better than using the circuit on the NESRGB

LOL really? The AV Famicom's audio circuitry doesn't exactly do a great job of mixing in expansion audio, it's way too quiet compared to the 2A03 audio. I've done a bunch of NESRGB installs on AV Famis and the NESRGB's audio circuitry turned out better every time.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:23 pm 


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YARLY. Yes, the balance is off on stock AV Famicom that can be resolved by changing the values of two resistors? Aside from that, the result in terms of noise is about the same, which is why I have found it to be a wash on the AV Famicom. Even connecting only CPU pins 1/2 to the NESRGB audio circuit outputs a noisy signal compared to the US top and front loaders.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:05 pm 



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Thanks, but I plan to install this on a front loading NES. I don't have a Famicom anymore. Any help getting expansion audio working so I can use an Ever drive N8 with Famicom ROMS would be appreciated.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:39 pm 



Joined: 29 Sep 2014
Posts: 14
ApolloBoy wrote:
RGB32E wrote:
I've found from several AV Famicom installs that the stock audio circuit in the AV Famicom is overall better than using the circuit on the NESRGB

LOL really? The AV Famicom's audio circuitry doesn't exactly do a great job of mixing in expansion audio, it's way too quiet compared to the 2A03 audio. I've done a bunch of NESRGB installs on AV Famis and the NESRGB's audio circuitry turned out better every time.


How do you personally wire it up BTW? I recall you running in to some challenges on the nesdev forums a long time ago.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:11 pm 



Joined: 06 Oct 2012
Posts: 1073
yxkalle wrote:
One of these fixes the problem with the few carts that doesn't fit with an adapter. It also solves the biggest problem with front loaders; the spring-loaded cartridge slot. It's an additional cost though.


Whenever the Blinking light win does get shipped ill be happy. Ive been waiting on something like this for a long time.
He is also working on a nes to famicom adapter to sell alongside it.

should solve all the problems with the cart slot on the the front load nes.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:57 pm 



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Location: Toronto, Canada
Here's the "theoretical" way of doing EXP audio on USA front loader and top loader. Can someone please confirm or correct?

As per http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/Cartridge_connector the Famicom EXP audio comes out on pin 46 of the famicom cart. You need to route that to either:

Top loader: pin 51 (EXP9)
Front loader: pin 54 (EXP6)

Pin 54 / EXP6 does not exist on Top loader, hence why pin 51 / EXP9 is used. So if you're using a 60 pin to 72 pin adapter, put a wire as above. If you're just using Everdrive or PowerPak, you'll need to modify your flash device to route from pin 51 to pin 54 for top loader (leave alone for front loader)

Inside your NES, you install a wire from under the 72 pin connector to the NESRGB. New NESRGB boards have a hole next to J5 for EXP audio input. You run the wire from either pin 51 or pin 54 towards the NESRGB. But, make sure to add a resistor between wire and hole on NESRGB. The suggested resistor is a 47k ohm resistor.

Did I get it right? :)


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:36 pm 


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I've heard several people say a 47K ohm is not the correct resistance and most say to use a 100K potentiometer as a rheostat and to dial it in ti'll it sounds correct. I'm unsure what a good fixed value would be but I can confirm a 47K ohm is 'good enough' unless you're an audiophile.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 12:37 am 


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vvs wrote:
ApolloBoy wrote:
RGB32E wrote:
I've found from several AV Famicom installs that the stock audio circuit in the AV Famicom is overall better than using the circuit on the NESRGB

LOL really? The AV Famicom's audio circuitry doesn't exactly do a great job of mixing in expansion audio, it's way too quiet compared to the 2A03 audio. I've done a bunch of NESRGB installs on AV Famis and the NESRGB's audio circuitry turned out better every time.


How do you personally wire it up BTW? I recall you running in to some challenges on the nesdev forums a long time ago.

I use the NESRGB circuit, I gave up on trying to fix the stock audio circuit.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 12:56 am 



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ApolloBoy wrote:
vvs wrote:

How do you personally wire it up BTW? I recall you running in to some challenges on the nesdev forums a long time ago.

I use the NESRGB circuit, I gave up on trying to fix the stock audio circuit.


Yes, but more specifically how did you wire it up. Spare no details :)

I have seen a couple of methods used with NESRGB + AV Famicom for use with the Everdrive N8. I would be interested in hearing your insight as to the method you chose.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:50 am 



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Location: Toronto, Canada
?!? Did I not write a few messages back on how to wire expanded audio? The rest is pulling audio from pin 1 and 2 of CPU as per Tim's instructions.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:09 am 



Joined: 29 Sep 2014
Posts: 14
leonk wrote:
?!? Did I not write a few messages back on how to wire expanded audio? The rest is pulling audio from pin 1 and 2 of CPU as per Tim's instructions.


leonk, No disrespect intended, but I am not asking for instruction on how to wire it up (I have done so many times for my installs)

My question was directed towards ApolloBoy as I wanted to know what method he ultimately decided upon for his _AV FAMICOM_ installs. In his previous post he said he does so by "using the NESRGB circuit", but there are at least 2 ways of doing so, and so I wanted to give him a chance to elaborate if he has a free moment.

Nevertheless, your response is still informative for the thread. So thank you for that. :)


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:47 pm 



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Location: Toronto, Canada
Got it! Sorry for missreading your reply. I've done more than a handful of famicom AV for customers; so here's my take:

1) you can tap pin 1/2 like NES of CPU. You'll get clean audio but you'll lose EXP audio!
2) leave it alone. Most simple solution. EXP audio is already there.
3) some hybrid solution.

Personally, I went with #2. Audio sounds great and no customer ever complained.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:52 am 



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I chose option 2 as well, why fix what does not sound broken to my ear. Regular games sound fine, Akumajo Densetsu sounds fine, I am happy.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:46 pm 


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leonk wrote:
1) you can tap pin 1/2 like NES of CPU. You'll get clean audio but you'll lose EXP audio!

You do know the NESRGB has a provision for expansion audio, right?


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:06 am 



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ApolloBoy wrote:
leonk wrote:
1) you can tap pin 1/2 like NES of CPU. You'll get clean audio but you'll lose EXP audio!

You do know the NESRGB has a provision for expansion audio, right?


Scroll a few posts up and you'll see my instructions on how to add exp audio to NES top loader as well as front loader. I think I'm aware of it. :)

My concern with using NESRGB exp over native is the potential for extra noise entering the analog exp path in the famicom. Unlike NES were exp 6 / exp 9 are not tied to anything, RF audio out from famicom cart does tie to other components on PCB which theoretically can add noise of tapped and routed to NESRGB without removal first.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:11 pm 



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Posts: 404
This will probably be pretty unpopular with people but I am going to post it as a heads up anyway. I had been contemplating it for awhile but I do feel it is a useful tidbit of information for people to be aware of.

People think that the NESRGB actually cures the jail bar problem with the various revisions of the NES however it really does not. What it does is reduce the problem to the point where the naked eye will not see it (In MOST but not all cases). By playing with settings on sensitive capture devices such as the PEXHDCAP you can actually make the jailbars super faintly visible again on any NES revision (when using straight RGB with no devices in the middle). They are however usually not visible on CRT's and definitely not visible on scalers such as the XRGB-3 and mini (since they process and filter the video signal). "Well I don't see them on my display so it obviously does not have them", this is a response I get a lot from people and sadly it is incorrect. Keep in mind, Jail bar visibility varies from person to person due to their devices/setups and their actual eyesight (hence why jail bar visibility reports with the PC10 mods were all over the place). Simply put, just because you do not see it does not mean it is not there.

With this background info being said I wanted to bring up the fact that if you are RGB Modding an old Famicom you may get visible jailbars with your display/setup. Their visibility is far worse than any other model of the Famicom/NES once RGB modded (even phonedork noticed it on his Famicom). I have modded about six CPU-07 original Famicom's now with the new kit and have noticed the same results each time (visible jailbars). I also found an old GPM-02 PCB I had forgot about and tried that today as well, same result (albeit slightly better). It is not the mod work as I have talked to others who had the same results as myself (and have done the mod several different ways, including with constructing my own power boards).

Now don't go grabbing them pitchforks just yet, visible does NOT mean they are terrible. I use a BVM-14F5U as my main display and they are visible only if I really go looking for them (going cross eyed makes them a bit more visible too). In other words they are not bad enough to bother people in most cases and it still looks amazing. Where the extra visibility does matter is using sensitive capture devices such as the PEXHDCAP (or any other sensitive video capture device) without any sort of device that processes the signal before hand. I have included some pictures on what to expect when using a PEXHDCAP in a setup similar to mine. Keep in mind this is with the sharpness on its softest setting, you can make it MUCH worse than this. Sadly because of this I ordered an AV Famicom and will be using it for recording game play instead.

Image

Image

Image
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 1:28 am 


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These are not the same "diagonal" jailbars you would get on the NESRGB with an NTSC frontloader when you use "V" for sync though. These are different, perfectly vertical.

And this occurs regardless of the sync you use?

Ive looked closely at my plasma and Im not saying they're not there, but if they are, they are completely invisible, regardless of picture settings. So long as I dont use V for sync, that is. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 1:44 am 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
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Here's my $0.02 about jail bars.

I have a 17" Samsung lcd pc monitor which also has composite input. It's over a decade old (when LCD technology was expensive) so I think Samsung thought it would be a good idea to add this functionality. Point is it also has no video processing. Whatever comes in goes out.

It is the only display I own that shows jail bars on anything from stock NES to famicom AV to av modded top loaders. It even makes jailbars pop on my sharp titler. It's brutal like that. But, using composite cables on NESRGB installed in front, top and famicom AV, I can't see jailbars. Not even in light blue smb1 sky (which is awesome at making them pop!).

Point is. You sure it's not your install or cables you use? Mind you I never did standard famicom but all other systems have no visible jail bars.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:14 am 



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Posts: 404
leonk wrote:
Here's my $0.02 about jail bars.

I have a 17" Samsung lcd pc monitor which also has composite input. It's over a decade old (when LCD technology was expensive) so I think Samsung thought it would be a good idea to add this functionality. Point is it also has no video processing. Whatever comes in goes out.

It is the only display I own that shows jail bars on anything from stock NES to famicom AV to av modded top loaders. It even makes jailbars pop on my sharp titler. It's brutal like that. But, using composite cables on NESRGB installed in front, top and famicom AV, I can't see jailbars. Not even in light blue smb1 sky (which is awesome at making them pop!).

Point is. You sure it's not your install or cables you use? Mind you I never did standard famicom but all other systems have no visible jail bars.


Its not the install method or sync used. Its not the cable used either as I have tried different RGB cables of varying quality when doing each install (some even made myself). It is the same noise/interference you would see in the old PC10 installs (and also the same as an AV modded Famicom). You can even slightly reduce the noise/jail bars using the same exact methods you would with the old AV/RGB mods as well (I tested this too).

Unless I over sharpen the image on the PEXHDCAP I cant see them with an AV Famicom or NES either (and even then they are so faint you gotta really look hard to see them). My point is that the kit does not fix this issue but merely makes it so faint you will not see it. Like I said in my original post, it will vary based on your device (for instance I could not see them at all on my Panasonic monitor or PVM-14M2U).

I realize a lot of people wont see them (which is a good thing), this is just a heads up for those that might be considering an original Famicom as they are going to be visible with some devices. It does not change with the old under the PCB install or the new method. Using the PA board or your own power board also wont change it. Power supply also has little to no bearing on it (a cheap PSU of course could make them worse in theory but I did not use any cheap ones to test). I've redone this mod a crap ton of times experimenting with it (and different layouts/methods) over the past half year (even before Tim released the PA board) and the results were all the same.
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:19 am 



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Posts: 404
Josh128 wrote:
These are not the same "diagonal" jailbars you would get on the NESRGB with an NTSC frontloader when you use "V" for sync though. These are different, perfectly vertical.

And this occurs regardless of the sync you use?

Ive looked closely at my plasma and Im not saying they're not there, but if they are, they are completely invisible, regardless of picture settings. So long as I dont use V for sync, that is. :lol:


The "jailbars" you speak of are not the same type. These thin white line ones come from noise caused mostly by poor PCB placement/design. Changing the sync used will have little to no bearing on these. I cant notice them in a front loader or AV Famicom on any of my actual displays either however the original Famicom is one of the worst PCB designs out of all the NES revisions (hence why they are visible with it and not others). Even in the old playchoice 10 mods the Famicom had them much worse than the other models, and I did a lot of those installs as well.
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:02 am 



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Skips: Can you try using an NES PPU inside the famicom and see if it changes?

I did notice "quality" differences between the famicom AV PPU and NES PPU even though they have the same model number (almost like one is make in Japan and the other in China!) Wondering if that plays a role (probably won't) but neat experiment never the less.

BTW.. what were the PC10 fixes? Just adding caps to clean up power to the PPU?

Lastly, the jail bars in your pics, they're very different from the ones seen on standard NES / top loader. They occur much more often / many more of them. This could be a clue..


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:03 am 



Joined: 22 Oct 2013
Posts: 404
leonk wrote:
Skips: Can you try using an NES PPU inside the Famicom and see if it changes?

I did notice "quality" differences between the famicom AV PPU and NES PPU even though they have the same model number (almost like one is make in Japan and the other in China!) Wondering if that plays a role (probably won't) but neat experiment never the less.

BTW.. what were the PC10 fixes? Just adding caps to clean up power to the PPU?

Lastly, the jail bars in your pics, they're very different from the ones seen on standard NES / top loader. They occur much more often / many more of them. This could be a clue..


Already tried all that, plus the PPU in this one is from an AV Famicom I still need to repair. The jailbars appearance/pattern will change between revisions depending on how noisy the PCB is. This is how they looked on the old PC10 mods as well with the original Famicom. They occur much more frequently simply because its that much noisier than the NES and NES 2. From my experience with various video mods it goes AV Famicom > NES Front Loader > NES Top Loader > Twin Famicom > Original Famicom from best to worst as far as noise is concerned. The noisier the PCB the more frequent and noticeable jailbars become. Also keep in mind the PEXHDCAP is very sensitive to this stuff. The screenshots may look bad but it is NOT that even that close on a CRT or scaling device. The PEXHDCAP is just a worst case scenario but ultimately the increased presence of jailbars with the original model is something I just wanted people to be aware of as a couple clients of mine did notice them on their CRT. I just did not want modders getting in a situation where a client is expecting one thing then gets something they weren't expecting.

PPU type played a roll in jailbars in the old PC10 mods slightly. An example would be the white PPU's tended to be more susceptible to noise than the gray ones. However from my Various tests over the past months changing out Composite PPU's in the NESRGB with ones from a different system did not make a difference like it did in the PC10 mods.

Jailbar reduction in the old PC10 mods included caps between vcc and ground on the PPU and CPU, wrapping the PPU and CPU in a copper shield and grounding it, placing the amp as close as possible to the RGB pins on the PPU, and lifting pin 21 from the Famicom/NES PCB. Of course these methods varied greatly across PCB revisions and NES/Famicom models. Sometimes they helped a lot, sometimes they did very little.

*UPDATE*

I actually went back into the PEXHDCAP settings while recording SNES stuff today and found out I had it on the sharpest setting on accident (WHOOPS). This greatly exaggerates the jailbars a bit. Below is a screen cap of the PEXHDCAP on the setting I NORMALLY record at -_-. So take the first few pics as what Famicom Jail bars actually look like and this more of how noticeable they are I guess. Either way though they are still noticeable (especially when moving). I'm honestly not looking to fix it since its easier just to go back to an AV Famicom. I just wanted people to be aware of the issue.

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