Display advice

The place for all discussion on gaming hardware
Post Reply
User avatar
Xyga
Posts: 7181
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: block

Re: Display advice

Post by Xyga »

And why a single monitor for everything wouldn't make sense ? I don't want one different display for each and every type of source.

I already have a TV that's too big for tate-ing, and I was looking for a single good fast IPS monitor offering everything I needed from simple standard use to advanced features like ULMB and G-Sync.

But this Acer XB270HU monitor is not versatile at all, it's limited to PC use, exclusively for PC gaming.
It would be stupid of me to spend so much for such a limited display, it's perfect for heavy/serious PC gamers of course, but that's it.

Well, it came very, very close to be my ideal monitor. :|

EDIT: while waiting for more info about the Acer I've let a fantastic deal on another monitor pass. This all happened in a few days.
I hate Acer now. *sob*
Strikers1945guy wrote:"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"
Lord of Pirates
Posts: 523
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 5:03 pm

Re: Display advice

Post by Lord of Pirates »

The XB270HU is supposed to have HDMI/DVI inputs as well. It's just that variable refresh is limited to DP as HDMI/DVI don't support it as far as I know?

http://www.geforce.com/whats-new/articl ... r-unveiled
In addition to its G-SYNC and IPS technology, the Acer XB270HU is a fully featured monitor, offering just about every extra you could hope for. Starting from the top, the screen can be height adjusted, titled, rotated into Portrait, and VESA wall mounted. On the side there’s the required DisplayPort 1.2 output for G-SYNC, plus HDMI and DVI outputs for game consoles and other devices, as well as audio out and two USB 3.0 ports for accessories or storage.
User avatar
Xyga
Posts: 7181
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: block

Re: Display advice

Post by Xyga »

tftcentral who are in the middle of writing their review, confirmed it's single input DP.
http://twitter.com/TFTCentral/status/56 ... 56/photo/1
There has been way too much misinformation about the Acer monitors since CES, guess we should blame Acer and the over-hyped press.
It will certainly be what people expect (mostly), minus some minor details (that are big for some people, like me).
Strikers1945guy wrote:"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"
User avatar
Fudoh
Posts: 13044
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:29 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Display advice

Post by Fudoh »

as if Acer was trying to fuck it up on purpose....

Anybody any experiences with DVI/HDMI to DP converters ?
User avatar
Xyga
Posts: 7181
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: block

Re: Display advice

Post by Xyga »

Somebody asked me earlier and I don't know either, but if the monitor lacks a built-in scaler (likely) then there's little hope on that side.

EDIT: on a different topic: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/ue65js95 ... 234012.htm *drool*
But why curved again ?
Strikers1945guy wrote:"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"
User avatar
Ed Oscuro
Posts: 18654
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:13 pm
Location: uoıʇɐɹnƃıɟuoɔ ɯǝʇsʎs

Re: Display advice

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Lord of Pirates wrote:It's just that variable refresh is limited to DP as HDMI/DVI don't support it as far as I know?
Yes, that's correct.
User avatar
Xyga
Posts: 7181
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: block

Re: Display advice

Post by Xyga »

They should have added a secondary scaling circuit with at least a single DVI or HDMI input (one that scales at least a minimum number of consensual PC/HD resolutions).

From what I understand the upcoming monitors with FreeSync-approved built-in scalers will be something like that, and therefore multi-input (?)

EDIT: I feel stupid looking for info about external 1440p upscaling now, thought I would never really need that. Doesn't seem there is even a single solution out there.

Please BenQ or whoever, make the same monitor as that Acer but make it multi-input. Please! :cry:
Strikers1945guy wrote:"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"
Lord of Pirates
Posts: 523
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 5:03 pm

Re: Display advice

Post by Lord of Pirates »

Xyga wrote:tftcentral who are in the middle of writing their review, confirmed it's single input DP.
http://twitter.com/TFTCentral/status/56 ... 56/photo/1
There has been way too much misinformation about the Acer monitors since CES, guess we should blame Acer and the over-hyped press.
It will certainly be what people expect (mostly), minus some minor details (that are big for some people, like me).
I'd like to think this will at least be reflected in the cost but something tells me it won't be :|.
Ed Oscuro wrote:
Lord of Pirates wrote:It's just that variable refresh is limited to DP as HDMI/DVI don't support it as far as I know?
Yes, that's correct.
Thanks, I thought was the case but I wasn't certain about HDMI.
User avatar
Xyga
Posts: 7181
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: block

Re: Display advice

Post by Xyga »

Found an HDMI>DP (well 'mini' DP) scaler: http://www.atlona.com/ATLONA-HDMI-MINI- ... TCHER.html

What to think of it ? Comments on Amazon about the poor scaling quality are a turnoff. It's discontinued and not found used anyway.

Are there really no alternatives ? It's really too bad DVDO skipped 1440p output with the iScan Mini. :(
Strikers1945guy wrote:"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"
User avatar
Fudoh
Posts: 13044
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:29 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Display advice

Post by Fudoh »

1200p is the single link bandwith limit. And I can't think of any 4K scaler that has DP out (yet).

You really think they Acer would disable any internal scaling ? Do all bios screens display in dual link resolutions these days ? I don't even think that Windows handles dual link resolutions during installation and especially before the graphics driver is installed.
User avatar
Xyga
Posts: 7181
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: block

Re: Display advice

Post by Xyga »

Well the review is up and says it's able to display interpolated 1080p, but at the same time it's got no scaler.
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/acer_xb270hu.htm
Kind of confusing.

Does that mean there is support for the single 1920x1080 resolution stretched to the whole 2560x1440 area period ?
(That's still scaling isn't it ?)

Well that could be just enough if it's confirmed working with HDMI or DVI single simply with an adapter.
Of course they didn't try, there's a stupid prejudice saying it's made for pc gaming so nobody would use it with any other source.

EDIT: okay Simon from tftcentral told me he would investigate and hopefully manage to try 1080p HDMI with an adapter before he has to send the XB270HU back.
Strikers1945guy wrote:"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"
User avatar
Fudoh
Posts: 13044
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:29 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Display advice

Post by Fudoh »

Strobing Backlight only between 85 and 100Hz source refresh rate. What kind of people develop such a nonsense ?
User avatar
Xyga
Posts: 7181
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: block

Re: Display advice

Post by Xyga »

I don't get how it can even work at those frequencies actually.

Well we always have G-Sync and the 120/144Hz refresh rates. Good strobing will be for another time.
Strikers1945guy wrote:"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"
User avatar
Ed Oscuro
Posts: 18654
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:13 pm
Location: uoıʇɐɹnƃıɟuoɔ ɯǝʇsʎs

Re: Display advice

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Fudoh wrote:Strobing Backlight only between 85 and 100Hz source refresh rate. What kind of people develop such a nonsense ?
Wait, so strobing doesn't work at 60Hz, and it strobes something like 170Hz or 200Hz?
Xyga wrote:EDIT: okay Simon from tftcentral told me he would investigate
Looking forward to these results!
User avatar
Xyga
Posts: 7181
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: block

Re: Display advice

Post by Xyga »

It's a different one but in the background I'm also keeping my fingers crossed for Asus MG279Q FreeSync certification.

Could be a significantly more affordable alternative, and possibly multi-input.

EDIT: Or maybe not so much: http://www.pcper.com/news/Displays/CES- ... sh-Monitor
Strikers1945guy wrote:"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"
User avatar
Xyga
Posts: 7181
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: block

Re: Display advice

Post by Xyga »

Well I expected that a bit but basically Simon found that a converter like the one linked is naturally needed, there are few on the market and the only one that pops up everywhere is expensive StarTech junk (ugh, as always); http://uk.startech.com/AV/Converters/Vi ... er~HDMI2DP
and he won't buy one for just one person with an interest in this of course, can't blame him.

Anyway looking at the XB270HU's rather crude interpolation quality I'm not sure it would be worth the spending.
Image
Because I expect the converter to actually make it worse.

I'm growing more and more interested in the Asus MG279Q now (no ULMB but heh), though even after reading about what Asus say, and what AMD say about genuine FreeSync support, I'm not even sure which of their GPU's really likely to do it real and right.

The R7 260X for instance supposedly will support the full thing, but they say FreeSync requires at least DP 1.2a (the 'a' is crucial), which this card doesn't seem to feature (?)
Strikers1945guy wrote:"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"
User avatar
Fudoh
Posts: 13044
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:29 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Display advice

Post by Fudoh »

I'm growing more and more interested in the Asus MG279Q now (no ULMB but heh), though even after reading about what Asus say, and what AMD say about genuine FreeSync support, I'm not even sure which of their GPU's really likely to do it real and right.
na, I really don't want an AMD card. Also what does "variable refresh rate window (in the EDID)" really mean ?

What's the next 27" IPS G-Sync display on the horizon ?
User avatar
Xyga
Posts: 7181
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: block

Re: Display advice

Post by Xyga »

I wouldn't mind an AMD card, supposedly that R7 260X is just okay for my needs and can be found for 120€.
(My current low-profile 750Ti would move to that micro-atx rig I've been dying to build).

The next G-Sync IPS should be the XR341CK (G-Sync version) :lol:

Nothing else G-Sync has been announced for 2015.
Obviously, Acer exclusivity this year.

PS: means dynamic variable refresh rate will work from 40Hz to 120Hz, since the display's own EDID characteristics define the limits/boundaries for FreeSync.
Strikers1945guy wrote:"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"
User avatar
Fudoh
Posts: 13044
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:29 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Display advice

Post by Fudoh »

Have you read anything about using Freesync with MAME or other emus ?

And what I would be interested in is whether a freesync monitor reacts worse to non-freesync, but off spec signals than other monitors or not (or better) ? For example usually a monitor will run fine at 59.5Hz without hiccups, but will start introducing judder at less (MVS with 59.15Hz for example).
User avatar
Xyga
Posts: 7181
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: block

Re: Display advice

Post by Xyga »

Nope not yet, we'll have to wait for comparisons.

IIRC from what I read with G-Sync things are indeed far from perfect, efficiency/smoothness depends on the emulator (i.e.last time I read RetroArch was okay, standard Mame wasn't, go figure) but it's reported great when it works.
Didn't the guys at BYOAC experience a bit with it ?

Anyway I don't know if FreeSync will work the same but it's supposed to be pretty similar to G-Sync... wait an see.
Strikers1945guy wrote:"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"
User avatar
Ed Oscuro
Posts: 18654
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:13 pm
Location: uoıʇɐɹnƃıɟuoɔ ɯǝʇsʎs

Re: Display advice

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Fudoh wrote:And what I would be interested in is whether a freesync monitor reacts worse to non-freesync, but off spec signals than other monitors or not (or better) ? For example usually a monitor will run fine at 59.5Hz without hiccups, but will start introducing judder at less (MVS with 59.15Hz for example).
My own old, rather crap non-adaptive sync monitor seems to run Ken-Go fine (and that's 55Hz). It would be interesting to see if the behavior from monitor to monitor is standardized or all over the place in the G-Sync / FreeSync monitors, though I doubt we'll get enough tests to be sure.

I still don't have any idea about VGA to DisplayPort for getting scalers working.
User avatar
Xyga
Posts: 7181
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: block

Re: Display advice

Post by Xyga »

HDMI/DVI to DP seems to be an expensive and hazardous thing already, I wouldn't imagine VGA to DP to be even possible without a terrible loss of quality and stability.

In the case of a DP-only display, chaining scalers with digital output + an active adapter/converter might be the only working solution. And that'll work only if the display features at least minimal built-in upscaling like the Acer does.
What a pain !
There are already better and more reliable options for upscaling to 4K, so it's kind of ridiculous.

I'll skip the Acer, wait for impressions on FreeSync and a review of the MG279Q, then if nothing does it right this year I'll wait more.
Until a display that ticks all the 'new and advanced features' and my requirements come out, I can still have fun with a more simple rotatable IPS like there are plenty around.
Strikers1945guy wrote:"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"
User avatar
Xan
Posts: 863
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:04 pm

Re: Display advice

Post by Xan »

Personally I'm waiting to see what Eizo can come up with, I find it a bit puzzling that they are so late to the game. Maybe they don't want to render the FG2421 obsolete too fast, although in terms of pricing they have plenty of headroom for a good 1440p G-Sync/FreeSync monitor. I guess enough people will still go for monitors like the Asus ROG Swift even after some IPS/VA models are out, though I can't see myself going back to TN.
User avatar
Xyga
Posts: 7181
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: block

Re: Display advice

Post by Xyga »

And what about BenQ ? It's them manufacturing that panel after all, they must be preparing something.
Strikers1945guy wrote:"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"
User avatar
Ed Oscuro
Posts: 18654
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:13 pm
Location: uoıʇɐɹnƃıɟuoɔ ɯǝʇsʎs

Re: Display advice

Post by Ed Oscuro »

The sad thing in all this is that detecting refresh rates is very old news, and we now know that panels can work outside "native" refresh rates and could cover refresh rates for a lot of different signals. The adaptive sync technology adds some features that are essentially extraneous to the question of getting unusual refresh rates working, like negotiating frame delivery for every frame - totally irrelevant if you know your source is delivering frames at a stable rate. The missing piece of the puzzle is resolution support.

Given this, it's almost confusing that manufacturers still use pulldown methods - except that pulldown is solely focused on the 24fps movie standard, which is apparently too slow for many panels.
User avatar
Xyga
Posts: 7181
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: block

Re: Display advice

Post by Xyga »

Holy crap; http://www.prad.de/new/monitore/test/20 ... Einleitung

Excellent response and lag figures for that category.
(Hope this is not one of those times Prad screwed the lag measurements though)
It might not be perfect but I don't see any major flaws, it's probably the best 32" IPS at the moment, the one we weren't expecting anymore.
Now I would have preferred it in multi-input 1440p 144Hz G-Sync form. ^^

PS: holy shite it's expensive (1000€). :shock:
Strikers1945guy wrote:"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"
User avatar
Ed Oscuro
Posts: 18654
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:13 pm
Location: uoıʇɐɹnƃıɟuoɔ ɯǝʇsʎs

Re: Display advice

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Heh. The thought has been in the back of my mind for a while: My current display is still alive and I might make my money go farther by putting off a purchase. Seeing price tags like that doesn't help change my mind :mrgreen:

About those specific test results...I didn't translate it yet, but page 11 seems to be the one discussing overdrive. You'll note one of the graphs has a fairly normal curve, while another shows a spike off the graph. Hard to interpret that as scale might be to blame for the apparent spike, but that spike (in relation to the rest of the set) could be an indication of visual anomalies like overshoot. But I'll wait to see somebody else do a text or moving UFO test of that :}
User avatar
Xyga
Posts: 7181
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: block

Re: Display advice

Post by Xyga »

Dunno, this is why I like the tftcentral graphs better, when there's stuff like OD artifacts, it's shown in red and you can't miss it. :mrgreen:
Strikers1945guy wrote:"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"
Kilmaattikahn
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:30 am

Re: Display advice

Post by Kilmaattikahn »

So a few months after this exchange I'm finally considering getting an LCD as replacemnet for my CRT.

Requirements are (may compromise on a couple if needed):
- price: under 200€ preferably, definitely <300€
- size: optimally 24", 20~21 at least, 27~28 at most, TATE not required
- native 1920x1080 or at least with proper AR if a 16:10 panel
- inputs: at least 1 D-Sub and 1 HDMI, the more the merrier
- to be used in a low-light room, gaming first (360, PS3, perhaps PS4 eventually), movies second, TV never, speakers not needed.

I'll keep my still working CRT for the Dreamcast and XRGB-3 but if the new panel also plays along fine with those better still. Willing to sacrifice a bit on input lag for better picture quality.

After messing around a bit with TFT Central's display picker, the only result I could find that meets the above requirements is the Eizo EV2450. Anyone got suggestions for similar/better displays? Should I wait for upcoming models?
User avatar
Xyga
Posts: 7181
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: block

Re: Display advice

Post by Xyga »

Can't go wrong with the Eizo EV2450, as far as available reviews tell it's one of the best 24" standard 1080p monitors on the market.
(Though significantly more expensive than the competition, as always with Eizo)
The tftcentral review says it's got a 'low-glow' panel, which is awesome in practice (and better for movies), but very rare in reality.

(rare because: sometimes the reviewed monitors are units with better parts cherry-picked by the manufacturer on purpose. or there can be a 'panel lottery' where the first manufactured series are low-glow, but the next ones aren't).

It's got a standard light-matte coating though, which many people don't like because of the reduced picture clarity.

------------

The only 'glossy' alternative is the Dell S2415H (exists in 27"), be careful though it is a very reflective screen, which can be a problem in broad daylight.
Also Dell are famous for their poorer-than-average factory quality control, issues like backlight bleeding are very common so make sure you get one from a vendor with very flexible and hassle-free returns policy.

16:10 monitors are of course more desirable especially for desktop use, those have higher resolution and color performance, but you know there isn't much choice in that category, and all the good ones cost well over 300€.
The Eizo EV2455 is basically a 16:10 version of the EV2450, minus the low-glow panel according to the review.
The Asus PB248Q is said to be another good one, more affordable.

If you want to go bigger there's a wide choice of decent affordable 27" in 1080p, though if you're used to your crt monitor in higher resolutions you might find the pixel density/pitch of those disappointing (assuming the fact you'll continue to sit right in front at the usual desktop use distance).

Current monitor ranges from all brands are still being updated with the new 2015 models, which are often the same as the previous year's with barely any modifications, maybe new aesthetics and model number.
For instance the Samsung S27D390H is now the S27E390H, the LG 27MP75HM is now the 27MP77HM.

There are however a few surprises like NCX found out in his yet unfinished review of the LG 27MP35VQ http://wecravegamestoo.com/forums/monit ... h-ips.html which appears to feature a lighter coating compared to the 'usual'.
Should we assume all 2015 LG models have the same new lighter coating ? I don't know, but it's an interesting thing to look at...

For affordable consumer-grade IPS monitors I always recommend LG, they're the overall most balanced and decently equipped/priced for what they are. Plus they have a lot of models from 'really entry' to 'luxury/design' leaving quite enough choice regarding convenience features and options.
27M47VQ
27MP57VQ
27MP67VQ
27MP77HM
27MP37VQ

('VQ' usually means they feature HDMI + DVI + VGA. HQ means only HDMI + VGA.)
Most of those usually exist in 24" and 22" sizes, just modify the model name to find.
Additionally for those interested they do a number of 'commercial' versions with included rotating stand, check on their website in the 'commercial displays > desktop monitors' section.

Samsung also do decent PLS (same as IPS) monitors, with slightly more responsive panels but a bit more 'glow'.
Their problem though is the common lack of things like DVI and VESA.

Other brands mostly borrow LG's IPS panels, some will rather feature Samsung's PLS, and few like BenQ use their own AUO AHVA (yeah despite the name it's like IPS).

Would you choose to skip IPS because you want significantly better contrast ratio and deeper blacks, check the still-best 1080p VA monitor on the market (AFAIK): the Iiyama XB2783HSU-B1 (remove the 'B' for the version without a rotating stand, and write 24 in place of 27 for the smaller size).

----------
EDIT: post-scriptum; reviews for standard monitors (I mean without gimmicks like curved panel of g-sync or whatever) tend to be less today, manufacturers prefer lending their higher-end and more flashy models to reviews website.
But if you read reviews from past years (2013 and 2014) you'll learn enough about the trends in standards monitors and realize the 'updated' 2015 model numbers are mostly the same.
Just keep in mind backlight bleeding is common with pretty much all brands and a good vendor with hassle-free returns policy is a must.
Strikers1945guy wrote:"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"
Post Reply