Noob looking for recommendations

Kimblist · Post by **Kimblist** » Sat Feb 14, 2015 12:49 pm

Hi everybody, I'm new here and I need your expertise in finding new awesome titles suitable for a beginner like myself. I bought Under Defeat HD off of PSN sometime ago and got hooked instantly. Looking back, I played the game fairly aimlessly at first, not knowing how to orient myself with the endless credits at my disposal -- a phase most people new to the genre most go through, I imagine. After initially credit feeding the shit out of the game, I started to focus on scoring and getting as far as I could with one credit and really getting into the game in general. What I really like about the game is the simple scoring system and the not-too-punishing difficulty level (of the first loop), resulting in a perfect emotional cocktail of satisfaction, tension and frustration.

I also got Dodonpachi Resurrection, but I'm still trying to get my head around it. Getting into the 'flow' and dodging bullets like a jedi wizard is pretty cool, but I find the scoring system difficult to penetrate. It's very unclear to me what you're supposed to do, I feel like I'm fumbling around. I'm not sure if I have the patience to figure out how the game works, at least not right now. Maybe in the future. Also, the game is a lot tougher than Under Defeat. Dodonpachi Resurrection is probably not the best place to start, although there's the novice mode, which again feels almost too easy from a 1cc point of view.

So, what I'm looking for right now is a moderately challenging shmup for Xbox 360 (or PS3) with a scoring system suitable for my puny brains. Any suggestions? Thank you for reading!

Bananamatic · Post by **Bananamatic** » Sat Feb 14, 2015 1:41 pm

get mushihimesama futari on 360
original mode has simple to understand scoring and is a pretty easy 1cc but not too easy

TransatlanticFoe · Post by **TransatlanticFoe** » Sat Feb 14, 2015 1:58 pm

Shooting Love 10 shuunen (360, region free) has DeltaZeal and XII Stag (rebranded XIIZeal), both have an old-school feel that might follow on nicely from Under Defeat - as opposed to going for a CAVE bullet hell.

KAI · Post by **KAI** » Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:27 pm

Have you ever heard about Milestone?

Eaglet · Post by **Eaglet** » Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:27 pm

Buy Mushihimesama Futari for the 360 and get the Black Label DLC.
Probably the best introduction to the genre you could ever get.

Ebbo · Post by **Ebbo** » Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:53 pm

Eschatos! Original mode has fairly simple scoring system (destroy enemy waves quickly without missing enemies to keep multiplier going) and several difficulty options to suit any skill level. The game also comes bundled with two WonderSwan games, Judgement Silversword and Cardinal Sins which are top-notch games on their own right as well.

Anesthetize · Post by **Anesthetize** » Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:56 pm

I second (third?) the Mushi Futari suggestions. Such a satisfying game to play, and, especially with the Black Label download, covers a huge spectrum of difficulties. Even Original mode is super flexible: it stays very manageable at low rank, but can get much more difficult as you start learning to score better.

I'd also recommend the Raiden Fighters Aces games if they're available for you. A little more difficult (for me at least) but still very approachable. I really like how the scoring in that game is so...modular? You can pick and choose where you feel comfortable scoring, and introduce new tricks here and there as you improve.

Edit: autocorrect

Obscura · Post by **Obscura** » Sat Feb 14, 2015 3:42 pm

Dodonpachi Daifukkatsu (a.k.a. Resurrection) 1.5 is definitely a much easier 1cc than Under Defeat as long as you use Bomb or Strong styles.

As far as scoring goes, here's what you need to do:
In the first half of each stage, hyper as much as possible to cancel bullets to add to your hitcount. In the second half of each stage, chain the rest of the stage without using hyper to apply the "hyper bar full" multiplier to everything you do.

Kimblist · Post by **Kimblist** » Sat Feb 14, 2015 3:48 pm

Mushihimesama Futari seems like a safe bet! I've actually been thinking about getting it and with all the recommendations here I think I should place the order ASAP. I've also had my eyes on Shooting Love 10 shuunen. And Eschatos. But I've never heard of Milestone... :/

I don't think Raiden Fighters Aces is available for Europe (I assume that NA and JP versions are region locked). But I noticed that Raiden IV is on PSN for €20. Worth the money? Looks pretty cool.

Thanks for helping me out.

cave hermit · Post by **cave hermit** » Sat Feb 14, 2015 4:14 pm

I'd recommend Mushihimesama Futari as well: the 360 disc (last time I checked) is quite affordable, and if you feel like spending an extra $15 on the black label dlc (which appears on the live marketplace for all regions), the original mode in the black label add on is even more noob friendly.

Also, have you heard about our lord and savior Shinobu Yagawa?

Stevens · Post by **Stevens** » Sat Feb 14, 2015 4:45 pm

Raiden IV is very much worth the asking price, I think it is anyway.

Is Valkyrius on PSN?

HydrogLox · Post by **HydrogLox** » Sat Feb 14, 2015 9:22 pm

Another vote for Eschatos - and you might as well go for the Ginga Force & Eschatos Wonder Pack (Serraxor's Eschatos review).

Kimblist wrote:I bought Under Defeat HD off of PSN sometime ago and got hooked instantly. ... I also got Dodonpachi Resurrection, but I'm still trying to get my head around it.

Kimblist wrote:Mushihimesama Futari seems like a safe bet!

Because of the first two statements I have to wonder about the third. You will want to play it eventually and you will want to get it while it is still available for a reasonable price. But I suspect that Cave games may be an "acquired taste" for you - which will most likely happen eventually. But in terms of maintaining your interest you may want to focus on aircraft/spacecraft quasi-military themed STGs. Frankly as an Under Defeat fan you may want to consider Ketsui: Kizuna Jigoku Tachi Extra PS3 as your first Cave entry - not because it is beginner friendly (it is not) but because it is more likely to maintain your interest over the long term (Ketsui PS3 topic). That being said, Mushihimesama Futari is quite good in terms of skill building with a 1CC mindset (Serraxor's Futari review).

TransatlanticFoe wrote:Shooting Love 10 shuunen (360, region free) has DeltaZeal and XII Stag (rebranded XIIZeal), both have an old-school feel that might follow on nicely from Under Defeat - as opposed to going for a CAVE bullet hell.

Both games on Shooting Love. 10-Shuunen: XIIZeal & DeltaZeal are entertaining, Δzeal is more conventional, the XIIStag wiggle-attack may take some getting used to. Having each stage available in score-attack mode is nice for training (Serraxor's review).

Anesthetize wrote:I'd also recommend the Raiden Fighters Aces games if they're available for you.

Unfortunately not an option in the PAL region. Would require a "special 360" (Japanese edition is quite expensive at this point and there really is no point in getting a NTSC-U console for the more affordable US edition. But nonetheless it is worth pursuing if you are determined enough; Serraxor's Aces review).

Kimblist wrote:But I've never heard of Milestone... :/

Nothing available in the PAL-region for PS360 anyway so the point is moot.

Kimblist wrote:But I noticed that Raiden IV is on PSN for €20. Worth the money?

It is bound to go on sale again but I suspect eventually you'll want it (Serraxor's Overkill review).

Stevens wrote:Is Valkyrius on PSN?

Xbox Marketplace but is seems to be absent from the Finnish one.

Special World · Post by **Special World** » Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:00 pm

I would say that Dodonpachi Resurrection is EASILY Cave's worst game on 360, so if you're alright with that then definitely take the plunge on the far simpler and better Mushihimesama Futari (with Black Label DLC).

And definitely get the Eschatos / Ginga Force wonder pack. Those are pretty much the three games I'd pick even if you had every shooting game in the world at your disposal. They're phenomenal.

mamboFoxtrot · Post by **mamboFoxtrot** » Sat Feb 14, 2015 11:25 pm

Well, the first STG I really got in to was Akai Katana, so I recommend that. Its pretty cheap (physical copies are a bit cheaper than digital version right now), doesn't require a tate setup, and is so far the easiest CAVE game I've played, disregarding the other games' "Novice" and various arrange modes that I don't normally care for.

Bullets in the game are slow, the scoring system revolves around using a semi-invincible "Phantom" form, and bombs are really strong. Scoring is complicated, but not so much that I had to use internet guides to figure out most of it. Its also seems high on the improv, and you can potentially get some good chunks of score pretty much anywhere, especially in Climax mode. Bouncing between the Climax (updated original mode) and Slash (arrange) modes also helps keep things from getting too stale for me.

Granted, despite all that "easy" talk, I've only made it as far as the Stage 6 (of 7) boss, and I only did that once.

broken harbour · Post by **broken harbour** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:55 am

Raiden 4 is actually quite noob friendly on easier difficulties, I'd recommend that. Deathsmiles is fairly Simple and easyish as well and had a US release, also not that expensive.

Skykid · Post by **Skykid** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:52 am

ChoRenSha 68k is all you need, it's free, and it takes 2 minutes to DL and start playing.

MOSQUITO FIGHTER · Post by **MOSQUITO FIGHTER** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 5:06 am

Psikyo games. Eschatos. Maybe some Taito stuff like Rayforce.

Astraea FGA Mk. I · Post by **Astraea FGA Mk. I** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:12 am

I would start with modern games that would inspire and build up your enthusiasm before playing older games. I was more able to appreciate older titles after being wowed by Cave's 360 ports.

ACSeraph · Post by **ACSeraph** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:12 am

(Yay an excuse to post this again!)

Kimblist · Post by **Kimblist** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:28 am

Obscura wrote:Dodonpachi Daifukkatsu (a.k.a. Resurrection) 1.5 is definitely a much easier 1cc than Under Defeat as long as you use Bomb or Strong styles.

As far as scoring goes, here's what you need to do:
In the first half of each stage, hyper as much as possible to cancel bullets to add to your hitcount. In the second half of each stage, chain the rest of the stage without using hyper to apply the "hyper bar full" multiplier to everything you do.

I'm sure you're right. I haven't played Dodonpachi Resurrection nearly as much as I've played Under Defeat, I guess I still feel a little overwhelmed by how insane the game looks and feels. I think I do get how scoring works in theory, but I have a nagging doubt that I keep doing something wrong. I think I just need to get more familiar with the game.

HydrogLox wrote: Because of the first two statements I have to wonder about the third. You will want to play it eventually and you will want to get it while it is still available for a reasonable price. But I suspect that Cave games may be an "acquired taste" for you - which will most likely happen eventually. But in terms of maintaining your interest you may want to focus on aircraft/spacecraft quasi-military themed STGs. Frankly as an Under Defeat fan you may want to consider Ketsui: Kizuna Jigoku Tachi Extra PS3 as your first Cave entry - not because it is beginner friendly (it is not) but because it is more likely to maintain your interest over the long term (Ketsui PS3 topic). That being said, Mushihimesama Futari is quite good in terms of skill building with a 1CC mindset (Serraxor's Futari review).

Hard to say before I try Mushi out. There are things that I find appealing about Dodonpachi, despite my criticism, but I think a similar type of game, albeit slightly more approachable, could be the thing for me. I've tried Ketsui, briefly. Needless to say that I got my ass handed to me. But I got a good impression of it and I believe it might very well be worth the time and attention it no doubt needs. But like you said, it's not exactly beginner friendly.

mamboFoxtrot wrote:Well, the first STG I really got in to was Akai Katana, so I recommend that.

I'm currently bidding for Akai Katana and Deathsmiles. Not sure how good they are, but they are both only €5 at the moment. The complex scoring system of Akai Katana might (at least initally) be slightly off-putting, though. Deathsmiles looks disgusting, but it might be decent under the hood.

Jonst · Post by **Jonst** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:35 am

Good to see you're willing to try akai katana! Superb game and a perfectly realistic 1cc once you fully understand the scoring and the layout of the levels. I'd say climax is the most friendly mode at first. Deathsmiles is also fine and not overly complex. I'd say they are good starting points. These two games were my first cave clears, so if I can do it, anyone can!

Special World · Post by **Special World** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:51 pm

Deathsmiles looks... disgusting?

nasty_wolverine · Post by **nasty_wolverine** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:25 pm

Dariust Burst on PSN [PSP]
Strania Stella Machina [x360]

Also, entry level shmups are much more abundant on PC.

Sinful · Post by **Sinful** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:09 pm

Try to find Raiden Fighters for 360.

kyle d. · Post by **kyle d.** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:21 pm

buy a Dreamcast

BareKnuckleRoo · Post by **BareKnuckleRoo** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:39 pm

Kimblist wrote:Deathsmiles looks disgusting

???

I assume this is referring to the cover of the game? In which case you're mistaken; the cover Aksys made is basically retarded and makes the game look like a perverted eroge. This is the original cover; the only remotely explicit stuff in the game is a few inbetween stage tame fanservicey artwork and one of the endings having a bath scene (no nudity).

The game itself is absolutely solid and is perfect for someone looking for a good hori.

mamboFoxtrot · Post by **mamboFoxtrot** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:31 pm

I will admit to finding the pre-rendered 3D graphics rather iffy looking in screenshots, but when I saw it in motion it was a lot better looking.

Either game is pretty good, though I like AK's scoring better. It seems complicated when described, but its fairly natural to pull off at least well enough to get extends. I'm pretty lousy with DS's system, honestly. I find DS's difficulty to be a bit more erratic, as well. The difference between a Rank 2 and Rank 3 boss fight is pretty significant (Rank 1 is just lel), but the stage differences are really minor. When I last attempted a 1cc for a while, I found myself a bit bored for most of the stages, but then getting annihilated by most of the bosses. Granted, if I didn't understand AK's system at all, I might've felt that way about it, too.

Special World · Post by **Special World** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:34 pm

I think the 4-button Cave games are generally more complicated than the 3-button, considering they require a bunch of esoteric mode-switching. Not that I don't still love them (except DFK), but they are a little bit weird. Futari and Deathsmiles are better starter games, imo. But Akai Katana is good and cheap so it and Deathsmiles are both good picks.

HydrogLox · Post by **HydrogLox** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 5:18 pm

Kimblist wrote:I've tried Ketsui, briefly. Needless to say that I got my ass handed to me. But I got a good impression of it and I believe it might very well be worth the time and attention it no doubt needs. But like you said, it's not exactly beginner friendly.

It depends on what you are going for - around here there is a definite pressure to start lining up 1CCs but personally I can't imagine spending hours upon hours with a game that I only have a half-hearted interest in, in order to to potentially collect an "easy 1CC" - I rather spend that time with a game that I truly enjoy playing, even if does put me in my place again and again. I've owned Deathsmiles since the summer of 2011 and I still much rather pour those hours into Ketsui even if it will never lead to a 1CC. In the end for me even Caladrius Blaze has already gotten (much) more time than Deathsmiles (or Deathsmiles II which is supposed to be even easier) probably will ever get.

Kimblist wrote:I'm currently bidding for Akai Katana and Deathsmiles. Not sure how good they are, but they are both only €5 at the moment. The complex scoring system of Akai Katana might (at least initally) be slightly off-putting, though.

It is good to stock up on these titles while the prices are reasonable - that being said Under Defeat (HD) is a vertically scrolling STG - those are horizontal scrolling STGs. You may have to allow for the fact that you may prefer vertically scrolling STGs - lots of people do even though horis automatically take advantage of the standard (landscape) display orientation.
Bullet Heaven HD #051 - Akai Katana
Bullet Heaven EX - Impervious Phantoms (Akai Katana, Xbox 360)
I personally gravitate towards vertical scrolling STGs but horis such as Border Down, the Darius and Thunder Force series will hold my interest.

nasty_wolverine wrote:Strania Stella Machina [x360]

I'm a G.rev fan but I would say that Strania - The Stella Machina is an acquired taste (not as much as WarTech: Senko No Ronde (Xbox 360)) which requires melee combat that may not be to everybody's taste.
Bullet Heaven HD #036 - Strania: The Stella Machina
Bullet Heaven HD #055 - WarTech: Senko no Ronde

Kimblist · Post by **Kimblist** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:07 pm

Great to see so many informative posts, thanks a bunch for the warm welcome, everybody. You're a great help!

Special World wrote:Deathsmiles looks... disgusting?

Goth lolis...

But seriously, if the game is good, it's not going to bother me.

HydrogLox wrote: It is good to stock up on these titles while the prices are reasonable

Times are harsh, right now I can't afford to try out all the games I'd like to or buy new (old) systems, such as Dreamcast. For the time being 360 and PS3 are the only ones I will consider buying for. I have my old Sega MD somewhere, but the pads are broken (and lost).

Based on many posts here and reviews I've read, I think I will go for Mushihimesama Futari and Eschatos. I think I will leave downloadable titles be for the time being, stocking up on retail copies before prices go up might not be a stupid move.

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