[SOLVED]Testing Procedures when looking to buy a Sony PVM

[ociplaC]

Hey guys!

I am currently trying to buy my first Sony PVM (specifically a 20L5 model). I'm happy to say that I'm very close to finding one, possibly this weekend. What's more, it'll be an in-person deal, instead of online, so shipping costs/worries won't be a problem.

That aside, I've heard some horror stories, such as monitors with extensive screen burn, significant physical defects, or problems that can't be fixed through geometry/convergence tweaking. To avoid this, and to make sure the PVM is in buyable condition, I'd like to ask you guys for advice regarding negotiating with sellers.

- What is a good list of specific questions I should ask the seller, regarding the unit? I have a few in mind (previous applications, hours, etc.), but I'm worried about not being exhaustive enough and getting boned because I didn't ask something important.
- What procedures do you use, or know of, when testing out whether the PVM is sufficiently functional or not?

The good news is that the seller has posted pictures of the PVM from many different angles. I can see when it was manufactured, and the overall physical condition of it. However, I'd like to know what else I can do at this point.

Thank you!

[McCracAttack]

Hey guys!

I am currently trying to buy my first Sony PVM (specifically a 20L5 model). I'm happy to say that I'm very close to finding one, possibly this weekend. What's more, it'll be an in-person deal, instead of online, so shipping costs/worries won't be a problem.

That aside, I've heard some horror stories, such as monitors with extensive screen burn, significant physical defects, or problems that can't be fixed through geometry/convergence tweaking. To avoid this, and to make sure the PVM is in buyable condition, I'd like to ask you guys for advice regarding negotiating with sellers.

- What is a good list of specific questions I should ask the seller, regarding the unit? I have a few in mind (previous applications, hours, etc.), but I'm worried about not being exhaustive enough and getting boned because I didn't ask something important.
- What procedures do you use, or know of, when testing out whether the PVM is sufficiently functional or not?

The good news is that the seller has posted pictures of the PVM from many different angles. I can see when it was manufactured, and the overall physical condition of it. However, I'd like to know what else I can do at this point.

Thank you!

The last time I bought one I actually brought along a small Sega Genesis/Mega Drive and asked to hook it up so I could run the 240p test suite. You might not have everything for that but what about a portable DVD player and a DVD with some THX testing application? At a minimum you could hook it up via composite using an RCA-to-BCN adapter and just run some basic test patters. Though maybe ask ahead of time if they're cool with you hooking something up for testing.

[Ed Oscuro]

I just took along a SNES and a copy of Pitfall. RGB cables terminating in RGBs are mandatory for this test, though you should still get a great idea how it will perform if you only have a composite source (and a RCA to BNC female-female plug). Any 240p game will give you a great idea about colors, geometry, and the like. Just check that lines are straight across the picture and at the edges. Also check the physical glass for damage - you don't want to get it home and realize there's a nasty spot you can't live with!

The 20L5 is going to be a bit more involved than a model with knobs on the front, due to the OSDs, but if the screen looks off somehow, you'll first want to visit those front panel buttons to get in the menu and check out brightness and contrast. You also might need to press the EXT SYNC button to get a picture.

One thing, though - when I put a 240p source on my own 20L5, I thought the picture was kind of off a bit (it was an old arcade board). 480p, however, was and is awesome. Not sure what's going down with that. Some PVMs ship with extra boards like the BKM-129X in the back for a secondary set of analog RGB inputs (and the PVM-20L5 also takes SDI and some HD boards) but shouldn't need them.

Final thought - be really careful where the screen front is when you're moving it. You don't want to catch that surface on something, like a belt buckle or a zipper, and scratch the coating / glass.

[Xan]

I believe convergence can't be adjusted in the OSD, only on pots inside of the unit. I'd also look for rotation, that's another thing that you can't get rid of so easily.

[ociplaC]

Hey guys, thanks for the help! Quick update:
I decided not to get that 20L5 mentioned in the first post. The price was really good, but something felt off when I looked at the pictures again. There were two white stickers, covering the serial number area, and one right above it, which made me kind of suspicious. What sealed the deal though is that the seller has not responded to my emails or phone calls.

The good news? I managed to find a 14L5 in an even closer area, also at a reasonable price, and the serial numbers and everything are clearly pictured. Even with a good price I can't risk buying something that might be hot or otherwise illicitly obtained.

I have a few more questions but I'll get to it in another post later.

[ociplaC]

Some PVMs ship with extra boards like the BKM-129X in the back for a secondary set of analog RGB inputs (and the PVM-20L5 also takes SDI and some HD boards) but shouldn't need them.

The PVM I've purchased will come with an "SDI BKM-120D" card. As a gamer, are there any practical applications for this card? I would assume that you'd need an HD-SDI card to transmit analog HD signals (720p/1080i), but would this be good for an additional 480p hookup?

I believe convergence can't be adjusted in the OSD, only on pots inside of the unit. I'd also look for rotation, that's another thing that you can't get rid of so easily.

I'm scared of opening up the unit to adjust the pots. I hear you need to know exactly what you're doing (which I don't), and that if you mess up you could shock yourself to death (which I don't want). I've seen CRT restoration videos on YouTube, but those guys are qualified professionals

Edit: here's the video I was talking about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoBqm4ThJxw

[Ed Oscuro]

HD-SDI will transmit HD over SDI. That's it. I have a BKM-120D in my own 20L5 - yep - it's useless. Years back some people talked about getting better quality out of DVD players by modding them to output SDI, but I don't think this is going to be an issue for most of us, when we're just happy to have a CRT these days, and for most HD (and even EDTV, like 480p) material there's interesting new options opening up all the time.

I haven't screwed around with the knobs around the neck of my 20L5. They don't look too dangerous to mess with. I'd definitely get a copy of the service manual for that though.

Outdated info but: If they wanted to lure you to your death, surely they would have returned the call? Some people have misconceptions about the date or serial # and might have blocked it out for that reason. I don't suppose they were reusing a picture since it sounds like they know you'll be seeing the actual unit. This is kind of odd to do, but I'd definitely keep going after a 20L5 before going down to 14" on this model.

[Unseen]

The PVM I've purchased will come with an "SDI BKM-120D" card. As a gamer, are there any practical applications for this card? I would assume that you'd need an HD-SDI card to transmit analog HD signals (720p/1080i), but would this be good for an additional 480p hookup?

There are some reasonably-cheap HDMI to SDI converters that you could use to feed an HDMI signal into the monitor. However, the 120D in an SD-only card, so you would be limited to 480i/576i on the HDMI side.

[Ed Oscuro]

Interesting, good correction & additions there.

Which converters are reasonably priced?

[Xan]

I believe convergence can't be adjusted in the OSD, only on pots inside of the unit. I'd also look for rotation, that's another thing that you can't get rid of so easily.

I'm scared of opening up the unit to adjust the pots. I hear you need to know exactly what you're doing (which I don't), and that if you mess up you could shock yourself to death (which I don't want). I've seen CRT restoration videos on YouTube, but those guys are qualified professionals

I've remembered that some newer CRTs actually do allow adjustment of both of these aspects from the OSD; all of my PVMs are mid-90s models where I wasn't able to find those options. I have a 2003 PC Trinitron and it has both of them, I think. The L-series might be just new enough to support these adjustments, so YMMV (unless any owners want to chime in...).

[Ed Oscuro]

The PVM was never superseded; the line was just shut down to avoid modernization costs.

Anyhow, reading through the manual (i.e. at 2-12) you definitely use the OSD for adjustments:
http://neohyphengeo.com/PVM-20L5.pdf

That's not to say there are no controls inside, but there's not all that many things to tweak. It's a rather dense chassis inside so that wouldn't have been so practical anyway.

[Unseen]

Which converters are reasonably priced?

At least over here (Germany) there are small converter boxes called "(MINI) 3G HDMI to SDI Converter" available on eBay for around 40 Euros, sometimes with a brand name, sometimes without. Works fine for me with SD signals (480i/576i), although the box insists on an actual HDMI signal and not just DVI with the same resolution+timing. I have no idea how well it works with an EDTV (480p) or HDTV (720p/1080) signal, but your BKM-120D wouldn't support that anyway (for 720p that combination gives me static, but in color).

[ociplaC]

HD-SDI will transmit HD over SDI. That's it. I have a BKM-120D in my own 20L5 - yep - it's useless. Years back some people talked about getting better quality out of DVD players by modding them to output SDI, but I don't think this is going to be an issue for most of us, when we're just happy to have a CRT these days, and for most HD (and even EDTV, like 480p) material there's interesting new options opening up all the time.

SD-only huh? I see. Actually, using the card it sounds like I could simultaneously connect my 240p/480i and 480p sources..I think. SCART-to-BNC Cable hooked into the card, for my Sega CDX/N64 (when I fix the mod haha); component cables hooked into the back inputs (using BNC-to-RCA connectors of course), for my Wii/PS2. And if I got both a SCART Switcher and Component Switcher/Distribution Amp, I could plug all my sources into them.

Outdated info but: If they wanted to lure you to your death, surely they would have returned the call? Some people have misconceptions about the date or serial # and might have blocked it out for that reason. I don't suppose they were reusing a picture since it sounds like they know you'll be seeing the actual unit. This is kind of odd to do, but I'd definitely keep going after a 20L5 before going down to 14" on this model.

The 20L5 would've required a long improvised trip out of the way, and would be a huge gas expense, just to risk the possibility of buying something with the serial number removed, or even stolen property (both of which would be illegal).

As for the 14L5 I'm getting, it's in a much closer area to me, the seller is very responsive to my questions, and the price is still very fair. Plus, for me anyway, being smaller and reasonably portable is a bonus IMO. I'm looking to use this monitor for both personal gaming, and in my local Smash Bros. community to record and stream in glorious 480p.

[Ed Oscuro]

There's a few options available:
RGB to SD-SDI using the BKM-120D
Replace the card with a BKM-129X
Get a component switch box and some BNC to RCA connectors (BNC female to RCA male, I think)

These are what came to mind but they also seem to be ranked in order of expense and utility - i.e., more expensive and less useful to pursue the first option than the second, and the third option will probably be the most flexible and cost-effective. You'll want to buy some BNC to RCA connectors down the line anyway.

I wasn't able to find any RGB to SD-SDI converters I'd consider affordable, or even reliably on sale, and you must know exactly what you are buying - if "RGB" means a VESA (31KHz hori sync RGBHV signal for PCs) then you'd need yet another piece of equipment, and none of this is any good. Unless you can find something under the cost of a BKM-129X - and you might find some locally in recent PVMs on a fire sale - I would just forget about SDI.

I'm not 100% sure, but I don't believe you can avoid going into the OSD of the 20L5 to switch from RGB to component, even if you want to dedicate one of the option slots to one signal (i.e., RGBs with a BKM-129X) and HD component through another (i.e., 480p YPbPr via the back panel), see page 9 here. I ought to test this out.

The only concern with a switch box is that it has enough bandwidth for HD - that should be more than enough bandwidth for 240p RGBs also.

Don't mean to belabor the point, but on the 20L5: I didn't know all the details, but I don't think any thieves want to mess with CRTs, even if they're "only" 20", unless they think they could sell them for $500 or whatever. On the serial # having a sticker over it, or even stripped off...that's not illegal. There just aren't enough good CRTs to be super picky about what to travel for. I'd definitely go way the heck outta my way - like dedicate an entire day - to pick up a 20L5.

[ociplaC]

OK I think I get it now, SDI is a different thing altogether? I originally thought it was just a way of adding additional RGBs/YPbPr inputs to the PVM. Turns out I was confusing its function with the BKM-129X you were mentioning. I guess I'll just leave the card installed when I get the PVM

Going back to the service manual you linked earlier...would I be able to make all the necessary geometry/convergence adjustments by following section "2. Set-up adjustment", using 240p Suite in place of the listed testing equipment?

[Ed Oscuro]

Going back to the service manual you linked earlier...would I be able to make all the necessary geometry/convergence adjustments by following section "2. Set-up adjustment", using 240p Suite in place of the listed testing equipment?

Should be, yes. I still have to carry this out myself.

[Fudoh]

RGB to SD-SDI using the BKM-120D

I don't think that this would work with anything but spot on NTSC 480i. The SDI decoders are very picky about timings and supported formats.

I originally thought it was just a way of adding additional RGBs/YPbPr inputs to the PVM

that's a side effect. Most SDI boards for PVMs and BVMs allow you to use a set of three SDI inputs as one YPbPr input instead.

I would say: For 240p/480i signals SDI is pretty useless for us. 31khz isn't supported. 720p and 1080i are an options, since HDMI to HD-SDI converters are not this expensive and the signals are better standarized than 15khz ones.

[Ed Oscuro]

Thanks for clearing that up - I was worried about SD-SDI timings and should have looked into it before making that suggestion.

The SD-SDI card is completely useless for us.

[ociplaC]

Just wanted to finish off this thread by saying I'm now the proud owner of a Sony PVM-14L5! I'll have to wait until I get home from university this weekend to bring it up to my dorm though (had my dad pick it up from Portland, OR on his way back from personal business in CA).

Anyway thanks for the help everyone, I'll be posting more about the PVM this weekend in Fudoh's thread!