The BIG thread of Shmup grievances.

[Icarus]

As far as I am concerned, you're a lost cause.

Then why are you still posting? And even putting forth the effort to edit every post like 3 or 4 times?

It's almost midnight, I'm chilling at home playing through Kantai Collection's winter event, and your whining is keeping me entertained while my iPad is streaming TheMexicanRunner's live attempts at BoulderDash! on the NES for NESMania for background noise. My repeated editing is just me correcting my grammatical idiocy as I've been awake since 6am.
While I have to wonder just how much of your complaining is actual troll-baiting (hell, if it is, you got me), I'm also curious as to just how much of the good advice the people around you give you you ignore, because it doesn't fit with your perception of reality. If your view that talent is all that is required to excel at anything was really true, then you're a lost cause in more ways than one.

[Blinge]

EDIT: Typical Icarus. "Hey, I have nothing to say, so I'll just throw out insults and talk about how anyone who isn't a superplayer shouldn't bother playing at all.

Say it ain't so Icarus!? I have a right to play too!

[Shepardus]

To be fair, how many people are recording video of their first credit ever with a game? I mean, I cleared Crimzon Clover's novice modes on my first try easily, as did probably everyone else on this forum; how many bothered recording and Youtubing it?

I saved replays of my first clears of Novice (not my first try for at least one ship type, but second try is close enough). I haven't uploaded those replays to Youtube because they're nothing special to look at by any stretch of the imagination, and that's probably why you don't see more first-credit runs on Youtube, because people suck at a game they've just started playing. Though with the rise of livestreaming and "first impressions" videos you may be able to find some first attempts such as Totalbiscuit's or slowbeef's first impressions of Crimzon Clover.

At this point I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish, I get the impression that you don't even want to listen to anybody trying to help you and give you advice and your complaints are sounding less and less like anything to do with shmups, and more like you're angry because people you disagree with are telling you not to be angry. Really, you ought to take a step back for at least a little while and collect yourself, because we're getting nowhere if you keep treating our criticisms and advice like personal attacks on you and not being able to "acknowledge who you are," whatever that means.

Also, if you've got enough talent to clear Crimzon Clover on Novice on your first try (even with experience in the doujin version), you're at least as skilled as I am. So when you're in the mood to take advice and actually learn something, go back and see if you can trigger the Ura midboss more consistently, because it's definitely not super difficult (though it is pretty obscure).

I know the requirements, but I can kill every single silo before the tanks, not die, get all 3 bees, and have full hyper meter before even killing the last tank, and it won't warp me most of the time.

Best I can tell, it's completely fucking arbitrary. Unless there's another requirement that no one knows about, doing it 100% perfectly won't cause it to happen a huge percentage of the time.

BTW getting all the bees is actually unnecessary as long as you don't reveal them. Based on the video you posted you need to be heading over to the left side of the screen earlier so you can start shooting at the silos as soon as they appear.

[Squire Grooktook]

To be fair, how many people are recording video of their first credit ever with a game? I mean, I cleared Crimzon Clover's novice modes on my first try easily, as did probably everyone else on this forum; how many bothered recording and Youtubing it?

Probably different if you know your a damn good player and your playing a genuinely difficult game. Besides, most bullet hell games these days give you the option to save replays automatically (not like you have to prop a cam corder up every time).

I remember a while back Cave held a location test with top wr holding players playing DDP SOJ blind for the first time. IIRC only one of them made it to the last boss on first attempt, no idea if they actually won.

[Icarus]

I remember a while back Cave held a location test with top wr holding players playing DDP SOJ blind for the first time. IIRC only one of them made it to the last boss on first attempt, no idea if they actually won.

They actually said the loketest was too hard if I recall, and the game was tuned down slightly as a result.
I think bullet speed and density was a little high, and were the main criticisms of the test version at the time. I can't remember if anyone actually managed to clear the test version on day one, though.

[Lilium]

@Obscura: Oh my god could you just stop. Play some shmups. Git Gud. It can be done.

[Erppo]

There was the Ebisen stream right when SDOJ was released and the guy playing Laser (can't remember who) got to the final boss, at which point they cut the run in order to not reveal it yet. Since that was the first time anyone had seen stages 4 or 5, that was pretty much a blind credit.

[CloudyMusic]

All of the debate about "talent" and "hand-eye coordination" seems kind of moot; Obscura, if you were able to muster the practice/skill/consistency/whatever required to 1-ALL DOJBL and make it to late stage 5 after months off, you have more than enough ability to handle DFK 1.5, Ura route included. It's just a matter of analyzing what you're doing wrong and getting the consistency down. Even if you want to call a DOJBL 1-ALL easy, it's still miles more work than the thing you're currently trying to do. You've proven that you can do it.

[Obscura]

Dammit, why can't I at least be consistent in my inconsistency? I had done a few runs with the same route, and it worked about 25% of the time, then I turned on my stream just to prove a point, did 5 runs (ending at suicides on the midboss, of course)... and 4 of them worked (the one that didn't, I fucked up the point-blanks at the start. Also, I have no idea how to consistently time the move towards the second bee, since it's right on the verge of slowdown, so whether I get one more or one less bullet can cause a variable amount of slowdown time, which fucks up the timing). WTF.

http://www.twitch.tv/pbacque/b/621392913

This still DOES prove that the requirements as we know them are wrong, though; runs 2 and 4 don't get the first silo in time, and I get the warp anyways.

[LordHypnos]

be a man and go play
MARS MATRIX.

Always good advice

Took me 66 hours to clear Under Defeat. Anyone, regardless of skill level, can earn a clear in almost anything provided they're willing to put the work in.

If I die on stage 5 it is tends happen between 12:15 and 12:25 of your 1 CC.

When I die on the train 99% of the time it is on the last car.

I have solid survival routes for the 1st five cars and can usually get to the last car with no issue. I always eat a pink bullet on that last car though. Always. But I think I will be able to no miss it eventually.

I'm looking forward to a time when I can regularly reach stage 6 with 2 ships in reserve. It will happen.

And stop trying to tempt me with points!

I'd most definitely be interested to see your strat for the 3rd car. Not like I die every time, but you might still have a better strat than me.

@Obscura: I've actually played CCWI novice more than a few times (not sure how many) without yet clearing, yet I still got that pink-digit score in Mars Matrix DC! It was only the practice, I have like zero natural talent at this! Also, FWIW, I do basically the exact same set of movements every time when playing MM, and usually when I mess up I die instantly. Pathing is very important in shmups.

That being said though, in all fairness, this thread is the "shmup grievances" thread not the "ask for advice on how to get better" thread. It's basically a thread to lament and complain about the difficulties that you're having.

[trap15]

So it's the scrub thread to whine about how shitty you are and your inability to improve whilst people give good useful advice?

[Shepardus]

Dammit, why can't I at least be consistent in my inconsistency? I had done a few runs with the same route, and it worked about 25% of the time, then I turned on my stream just to prove a point, did 5 runs (ending at suicides on the midboss, of course)... and 4 of them worked (the one that didn't, I fucked up the point-blanks at the start. Also, I have no idea how to consistently time the move towards the second bee, since it's right on the verge of slowdown, so whether I get one more or one less bullet can cause a variable amount of slowdown time, which fucks up the timing). WTF.

http://www.twitch.tv/pbacque/b/621392913

This still DOES prove that the requirements as we know them are wrong, though; runs 2 and 4 don't get the first silo in time, and I get the warp anyways.

The fourth run looks fine to me, but to me it really does look like you didn't get one of the silos in run 2 (#2 in this image) and triggered the route anyway. Kinda strange but someone else should look at it too given how inexperienced I am at this game. (side note: I just checked that reference image for the first time in a while and turns out of the silos I thought was necessary to destroy, the bottom-most one, supposedly isn't. Like how does this game even work)

Another guide I've seen says that "apparently" one silo "may" be destroyed by a tank. (Edit: This might be referring to silo #2) It also doesn't mention anything about bees, which is consistent with what I've found (the number of bees you've collected doesn't matter beyond helping you charge your hyper).

[Obscura]

According to the strategy thread, #2 is not necessary. Only 1, 3, and 4.

On runs 2 and 4 in that vid, it sure looked like silo #1 got bumped.

(seriously, why the FUCK did they not give them a special animation when they get tank'd, like the Garegga stage 2 houses?)

[Shepardus]

Really? I thought silo #1 looked fine to me. Barely on time but still looks like you destroyed it.

And yeah, I wish there were some sort of special indication like how the announcer in Batrider says stuff like "WONDERFUL." Actually I wish the game had a cooler announcer in general, like Donpachi. At least it doesn't take that much longer to figure out if you've missed the trigger.

[Icarus]

On runs 2 and 4 in that vid, it sure looked like silo #1 got bumped.

Looks like you got them fine to me. (The wonders of frame advance.)
Run #3 (where you failed to get to Ura), both first and second silos were run over.

Some other thoughts:
- First hyper looks okay, though you can charge it a few seconds faster with better pointblanking.
- When going up to the second bee on the left (where the first silo is), use Boost Laser instead of Normal Shot - pointblank the silos for a second to destroy them, then back off with Shot to clear a path back to safety. Example.
- Link from the third tank to the group on the right looks fine, although for consistency, you might want to try Erppo's method of holding a Boost Laser on the right edge of the tank instead of the quick Normal Laser sweep that I tend to prefer.

Also, I have the sneaking suspicion that it's either silo #1 or #2 that can be run over, but not both.

[Cagar]

On a completely unrelated note, please stream more of the game sometime, pbacque.
New shmup stream is never a bad thing and if you're having trouble with the game, people could give advice straight away in the chat.

[Squire Grooktook]

On a completely unrelated note, please stream more of the game sometime, pbacque.
New shmup stream is never a bad thing and if you're having trouble with the game, people could give advice straight away in the chat.

Off topic too, but I was thinking I'd start streaming garbage gameplay for fun soon too.

[Obscura]

(Edit: this is in response to Icarus)

Uh, you're not switching to boost on that silo? In the video, you're sticking to normal.

Also, I tried aura-ing it down like you do there after watching MrMonkeyMan's vid, and every time I tried it, took a million bullets up the ass and from the right. How on earth are you surviving that?

DOUBLE EDIT: Pretty sure #1 can't be, I've had tons and tons of runs where I took out the tank before it took out #2, and then took out #3 by a mile with Boost + Aura and then #4 and didn't get it.

Unless it's some weird thing where there's a bunch of requirements and you have to hit some number of them (the Hyper bar being full at the end is obviously required, but there's multiple places I've died in the sequence and still gotten it, and I've had runs where I've died and definitely hit silos 1, 3, and 4, and had the hyper bar full, and gotten it).

(I still think it's not unlikely that it's something like the rumors surrounding the coin-pirate ship in SMB3 in the early '90s, where almost none of the rumors were correct, but the in the process of fulfilling the rumored condition, you'd be pretty likely to "accidentally" trigger the real condition).

[Iron Peach]

If you want an audience that wants garbage gameplay streamed to them then go to it.

[Squire Grooktook]

^^^ Heh, mostly just friends really. But tips would be great.

[Icarus]

(Edit: this is in response to Icarus)
Uh, you're not switching to boost on that silo? In the video, you're sticking to normal.

No, I suggested that you use Boost Laser because you're going for the second bee a bit later than I am - I move up for the second bee and first silo at the first possible opportunity, so I can afford to use Normal Shot and Laser to boost my chain until then. Until you get the timing and movement right at this section, it'd be better to use the attack with the higher damage output to ensure you manage to destroy it in time. Using Boost also clears a lot more out, reducing the amount of dangerous objects in your way.
The video is just an example of the general movement pattern I take to get there, don't take it as gospel for what you should be doing exactly - use it to get a general idea of strategies, and then roll something that works best for you into your own routes. You're already part of the way there judging from your short stream video, so just refine it and you'll be good to go.

Also, I tried aura-ing it down like you do there after watching MrMonkeyMan's vid, and every time I tried it, took a million bullets up the ass and from the right. How on earth are you surviving that?

Use Shot to cancel everything around you until both you and the bee are in a good position, then use Laser to uncover it and destroy the silos at the same time. As above, clearing enough of the enemies in the area out gives you a couple of seconds to aura the silo before you have to back off.
Also bear in mind that C-Power has much better side defence as the options are quite low down on the ship compared to A- and B-Power.
The general idea is to clear everything around you until the second bee is about to scroll in, then make a move for it. It takes a little practice to know what to destroy here in order to ensure that you have safe passage.

[Emuser]

Emuser's video is for C-Strong, so it's not useful in my case, since I'm playing B-Power.

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I will raise you a better video where there can be absolutely no confusion...

[Stevens]

Snip 3rd car

On the 3rd train car I wait for the first two sets of pink bullets to pass, then I tap dodge ever so lightly to avoid the aimed blue shots. Then when my shield charges I finish it off.

[Emuser]

Emuser's video is for C-Strong, so it's not useful in my case, since I'm playing B-Power.

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I will raise you a better video where there can be absolutely no confusion...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoI-OONBwsc

DFK Power Style Ura path entry. Hope this clarifies any confusion.

[Skykid]

EDIT: Encouraging someone to kill themselves sure is classy, Icarus.

He said commit Sudoku, not seppuku.

You might be able to kill yourself with sudoku, but that would be weird.

[Obscura]

After about 20 minutes of attempts, I'm pretty sure that route can't be made consistent.

1. The point blank at the start, even if you position yourself exactly right (nose right under the first H in "High Score"), about 1/3rd of the time, you'll just get rammed anyways.
2. Sprinting up to the bee and getting it + aura-ing the first silo before the medium ships on the right fire a volley is almost entirely luck. The timing you have to move up with isn't consistent because of slowdown (and it's incredibly predictive; you have to start the move waaay before the bee actually comes on screen), and whether you can actually get there in time is entirely dependent on the whims of the revenge laser. Get there early, you blow the run because the bee isn't on screen yet, and you miss it; late, and you die from the ships on the right.

This pretty much looks like someone did about 50 runs, picked the one that worked, and pointed to it to say "see! it's consistent!!!!!"

[Cagar]

The timing you have to move up with isn't consistent because of slowdown"

since it's right on the verge of slowdown, so whether I get one more or one less bullet can cause a variable amount of slowdown time, which fucks up the timing). WTF.

DFK MAME emulation rock!

[Erppo]

After about 20 minutes of attempts, I'm pretty sure that route can't be made consistent.

A while ago I played the game in an actual arcade a bunch and didn't waste a single credit on failed 1-1.

[Obscura]

Notice what I was actually responding to (hint: the phrase "this route" the post after a youtube video should have been your tip-off that maybe I wasn't responding to you.)

[Bananamatic]

it usually takes way more than 20 minutes to get consistent at something