Samsung F4500 plasma bargain for 480p sources

[Josh128]

I forgot to mention something. Excuse my ignorance on this, but there's an artefact occurring during motion that is quite distracting on the Samsung. In Mario Galaxy, if I go into first person camera mode and sweep the camera across the green 'grassy' areas of the Galaxy hub world, large, grainy patches of tiny dots appear - almost the same green colour it seems, but much too small, individually, to be pixels. This is not visible when the camera is still. Can anyone tell me what this is?

Its most likely plasma motion dithering you are seeing-- I noticed it too on my first plasma. They all do it, regardless of the make or model, and after a short while, it'll become completely unnoticable (it did for me, but Im completely plasma now, except for my main PC and my daughters TV, CRTs). If you consistently switch from CRT to plasma for different games, it may take longer, but you'll get used to it. Your 1080p Panasonic does it as well, but its harder to see on a 1080p, which may be why youre noticing it, if indeed thats what you are seeing.

Be absolutely sure to turn off "Digital Clean View", and "MPEG Noise Filter", as they can add some motion strangeness.

As far as the picture goes, it will improve noticably once broken in and you properly set the brightness and contrast. A brightness of 55 is too high for good blacks, you should be in the 43-45 range. You might try that after break in. Its extremely unlikely any early 2000's EDTV would be able to match the PQ of this set, -- its very good, regardless of the price. Its 480p may not be quite as sharp as one of those native sets, but that should be expected. The measured contrast ratio is over 5000:1 and black luminance is at least equal to or lower than even the $3000 MSRP, award winning Samsung F8500, a reference plasma.

The only real PQ weakness this set holds to CRTs and LEDs would be its anamorphic 1024x768 resolution-- but its only a weakness if you're wanting 1080p content or scanlines on your 240p, which as Ive said on the first page of this thread, it cant do. Aside from those two, I actually consider the resolution to be a plus, and what gives its 480p and 720p content such a natural, close to native look that you just dont get on a 1080p set. I also like its handling of 240p content without any external scalers, but its understandable some may not like the slight interpolation of its 240p mode.

Some here seem to take some of my comments about this sets PQ lightly, which is understandable given my sometimes cartoon-like enthusiasm, but I'd put its PQ against any set out there, including other plasmas. When viewed from the proper distance, HD video is breathtaking on this set-- the color reproduction, contrast, and motion resolution is up there with very high end sets.

http://www.rtings.com/info/contrast-ratio-tvs/2013
http://www.rtings.com/info/black-unifor ... hting/2013
http://www.rtings.com/info/lcd-vs-led-vs-plasma

[Xan]

The motion subpixel dithering can be a bit distracting at times as I had mentioned myself, especially in 30 FPS games, though the Nintendo stuff tends to run at 60 unlike most of the PS3 games I have. It's also pretty game/color dependant whether the effect is visible.

[HDgaming42]

Had a few rounds of Megadrive gaming with my son last night, playing Altered Beast and Ghouls N Ghosts. Looked so good I had to pull out the camera. The shots came out pretty decent.

Thanks for posting about this model. Here's a PVM-14L2 for comparison, running native 15kHz.

[Xan]

That's what I'm talking about... just compare the helmet.

[andykara2003]

Its most likely plasma motion dithering you are seeing

Thanks for that - after a bit of research, I thought that must be it. It is much more noticeable than on my other plasma, probably due to the resolution, as you say.

Its extremely unlikely any early 2000's EDTV would be able to match the PQ of this set

Perhaps your right - I'll take your word for it. As I say, they were pretty well non existent here.

I actually consider the resolution to be a plus, and what gives its 480p and 720p content such a natural, close to native look that you just dont get on a 1080p set

You're right, it's amazing how similar this looks to the NEC in some ways - very CRT like.

I'd put its PQ against any set out there

You'd have to see it running next to the NEC. The PQ of the Samsung is very nice, but the NEC definitely beats it for 480p content at least (I haven't tried 240p yet). I realise that this is possibly an unusual case as the NEC is a very good CRT, but looking at them together it's immediately obvious that the NEC just handles the 480p Wii's signal better.

There's not a huge amount in it, but I think that the fact that the NEC is running the games at it's ideal resolution helps. As I say, the shadow mask of the NEC is also slightly finer and therefore 'kinder' to the image than the slightly rougher SDE of the Samsung, which results in a cleaner look. Just looking closely at Mario in SMG, it's obvious that the NEC just resolves his image a bit better - he looks cleaner, slightly more defined and a little more pleasant to look at. In SMG, it's most noticeable when looking at water, which looks quite a bit nicer on the NEC.

Still, the Samsung does look very nice and as I say, there's not a huge amount in it, which is amazing considering it's a 1024x768 plasma.

[andykara2003]

I started to test Metroid prime 1 this morning, with both the Samsung and NEC on at the same time (the Samsung in 4:3 mode), each with a Wii and a copy of the game running to in order to compare them in real time. The difference is a lot more apparent in this game. Discounting the fact that the Samsung hasn't been broken in and focussing purely on the clarity and crispness of the game, the NEC now stands well ahead of the Samsung in my opinion. I should have thought of trying this game out first as the Galaxy games are pretty forgiving due to their more clean cut look.

The NEC is really clean and crisp looking compared to the Samsung now - MP looks just fantastic on the NEC, the CRT 'anti alias' effect minimising pixelation while retaining the sharpness beautifully. The Samsung looks pretty good and definitely smooth compared to my Panasonic, but compared to my NEC it looks like the graphics have thin coat of vaseline over them - this is the best way I can describe it.

I still like this TV and I'd love to say that it looks just as good as the NEC, I've just spent £250 on it after all. The difference, though, is now unmistakeable and quite striking. After playing this game, I would say that if the Samsung is a step above the Panasonic in quality, then the NEC is another whole step above the Samsung.

I'll still use this TV sometimes for Wii and GC widescreen games and my daughter will get years of use out of it, which I'm very happy about especially as it was such a great bargain, but I think my NEC will take precedence. I know that the colours and 'pop' will get better on the Samsung when I've finished the burn in period, but I don't expect it to get a sudden increase in clarity that will match the NEC.


I appreciate that this TV has many of the qualities that make it a great TV for watching movies - great blacks, contrast, motion, colour reproduction etc. and for a plasma, it does do a fantastic job with resolving the 'Cube/Wii's image.. But for the purpose of 480p videogaming, I can be confident now that in my opinion, it's still a clear step down from the NEC - and probably the Sony PGM-2950.

[Josh128]

Right on. When I say PQ, just understand Im including contrast, color, screen uniformity, motion, and resolution as a whole. Break in wont affect crispness at all. Remember the sharpness settings I like? Those settings were to help out in the crispness/resolution clarity area, and despite my best efforts, I just cant get used to less than 45 for a variety of 240p, 480i, and 480p game content-- the 20's are just way too soft for me. I much rather the crisper look of the sharper settings and deal with a little ringing (which admittedly, I hardly even notice) than have the softer look you are seeing in your settings. Remember, I have the 51" versions, and while technically it should not make much difference, without a doubt in person they are impressive.

The 31Khz CRTs are great for Wii and Cube, no doubt. They dont of course, allow for 16:9 games and usually have at least some degree of convergence/uniformity issues near the corners, such as slight red and blue bleed. My first experience with 480p was my Hitachi Ultravision Digital, and it was fantastic, but it was HUGE and did have some very slight convergence issues in the corners.

I no longer have the Hitachi and Philips HD CRTs to direct compare, but your right, they no doubt had an advantage in crispness in 480p. They couldnt however, match the contrast, color, uniformity, and of course, 16:9 capabilities of the set (which could be a double edged sword, as many do not like side bars on 4:3 stuff. The size of this set is nice too, I love the 51" screen, its perfect for my bedroom.

Had my Hitachi not died several years back, without a doubt I'd still have it in my living room, Wii attached. But that ship has sailed, and theres no going back for me.

[andykara2003]

Sure :) I don't want to take away from the fact that this is a fantastic set either - and I'm looking forward to playing it again after the break in period. The slides are working well and have been going for almost 24 hours (keeping a close eye on it!)

[Josh128]

That's what I'm talking about... just compare the helmet.

No argument here, sure, the set is no PVM for 240p, but for a flat panel with no processor, its still a nice look. Heres a more focused shot of GNG and SGNG, with the PVM shot for reference. The previous comparison was not as focused or zoomed, these are a more apples to apples comparison

[22point8]

Hey Josh, played about half an hour of that Castlevania game, the camera on my phone hates it, even turned cell light down to 0 and it still came out like that.

[Josh128]

Hey Josh, played about half an hour of that Castlevania game, the camera on my phone hates it, even turned cell light down to 0 and it still came out like that.

Not a terrible photo by any means, but I know what it looks like in person-- pretty darn impressive isnt it? The general high contrasting lighting w/ shadowy scenery of the game lends itself well to the strengths of plasma.

Non-game related, but another type of content that looks stunning is HD video content of indoor stadiums & coliseums. I watched the OTA HD broadcast of the UFC at Stockholm last night and the shots of the crowd and the lighting of the stadium just looked breathtaking on both the F4500 and the F5300. I watched most of the broadcast in the dark in my bedroom on the F4500 and it was just very impressive, the picture had such a depth at times it appeared almost 3 dimensional...

[Josh128]

Well, turns out I was indeed wrong that the F4500 couldnt properly show emulated full screen 240p scanlines. I had only tried ZSNES, Neo Rage X, and Nesten to draw that conclusion. Was playing around with Kega Fusion tonight, and using 1024x768 resolution, Fixed Aspect, and Nearest Multiple while using scanlines and ensuring that NTSC Aspect is unchecked, turns out the set can produce 100% perfect scanlines in full screen with Megadrive / Genesis games.

This happens with no uneven scaling-- both vertical and horizontal scrolling are perfect with no distortion-- its a 100% perfect vertical res pixel match, using 2 lines for each Genesis line and 1 line for each scanline. If you zoom into these shots on the imgur website, you can see this clearly on the second pic.

What this indicates is that it should be possible to achieve perfect scanlines with the right setup using 1024x768 on something like an XRGB.

Fudoh, perhaps you can test this? Not sure of the options you have with the mini, as Im not familiar with them, but if the emulator can do it, Im guessing the mini should be able to as well. The photos actually came out in quite incredible quality, probably the best to date I have taken of the set. Dare I say this setup even rivals that PVM pic in per pixel crispness? The PVM pic is included at the bottom for reference...

[HDgaming42]

Now, these results from Kega Fusion look much better. I wonder if you could get similar results from Retroarch on the Wii (direct apples to apples).

Although your results are much better, I feel I should add that my PVM pic is not in focus, and is taken askew because even with no ambient light, the light from the PVM itself illuminates my camera at such a close distance that straight shots feature far too much reflection off the glass (even without flash).

I suppose I could get a tripod and shoot it with my zoom lens from outside the reflection distance...

I admire your willingness to recreate the shots quite closely. I couldn't be bothered--and I certainly wasn't going to play as far as you did to take them! =)

[Josh128]

Now, these results from Kega Fusion look much better. I wonder if you could get similar results from Retroarch on the Wii (direct apples to apples).

Although your results are much better, I feel I should add that my PVM pic is not in focus, and is taken askew because even with no ambient light, the light from the PVM itself illuminates my camera at such a close distance that straight shots feature far too much reflection off the glass (even without flash).

I suppose I could get a tripod and shoot it with my zoom lens from outside the reflection distance...

I admire your willingness to recreate the shots quite closely. I couldn't be bothered--and I certainly wasn't going to play as far as you did to take them! =)

Thanks. Yes I could tell your pic is from a slightly off angle and not in perfect focus. I have to say though, the colors in your pic look incredible-- looks like the arcade version! Is it? Regardless of the TV or monitor Ive used, the MD Ghouls colors have always looked a bit washed out in comparison to the CPS 1 version.

Ive never used Retroarch, I really dont know. I had to use 1024x768 resolution to get these results, so if thats a must, probably wont be as perfect on Wii...

[22point8]

Gave it a brief go, had a lot of trouble getting Fusion to display full screen had to use xp compatibility, 1024x768 60hz scaled to 16:9 then use PC modes 4:3 size, nothing else would work for me.

[Josh128]

Gave it a brief go, had a lot of trouble getting Fusion to display full screen had to use xp compatibility, 1024x768 60hz scaled to 16:9 then use PC modes 4:3 size, nothing else would work for me.

It looks like there is a slight waver in those scanlines in the second pic-- youll get that if its not set up just right. The settings I used were absolutelypixel perfect, with no motion distortion while scrolling. Maybe you already have it, but its hard to tell in the second pic. I used just 1024x768 on the emulator and hit 4:3 mode on the set. The aspect ratio settings were important though to get it perfect. I'll try to post photos of the settings later.

[HDgaming42]

I have to say though, the colors in your pic look incredible-- looks like the arcade version! Is it? Regardless of the TV or monitor Ive used, the MD Ghouls colors have always looked a bit washed out in comparison to the CPS 1 version.

I agree. I'm impressed with the 14L2. I just picked it up, and calibrated it with the 240p test suite (just by eye--don't have a meter). My "main" retro set is a PVM-2530, but it's been mothballed for a while due to renos. The 14" is far easier to cart around and set up!

The ROM is the genesis one--doesn't the CPS-1 have additional parallax? I guess that's tough to tell from stills, now isn't it?

I already have a "dad-only" Panasonic Plasma (family can't fathom not pausing 4:3 content for hours at a time) but I love following the tech out there. Will post more pics when able...

[Josh128]

Played around with the SNES9X emulator tonight, was able to get perfect scanlines in a large window, but was unable to get them right on full screen. I also tried the Nvidia screen "resize" option, which in theory would work perfectly, if it let you pick your vertical resolution to a one pixel precision-- it doesnt, when you drag the resize bar usually the minimum you can expand or contract the screen res is 4 pixels, then the next time you try it it might limit you to 6 or 8. It also doesnt let you resize if you are using 1024x768 resolution, which is the one you really need to avoid interpolation.

What needs to happen, and what I think the Kega Fusion emulator is doing, is using a 1024x768 full screen resolution, but making the game screen only use 720 of those 768 pixels. It then uses two rows of pixels on the set for each game row, and then uses the third row on the set for the scanline. It just does this automatically with the options I used. Other emulators dont do that, but perhaps if you had the right D3D advanced shader, which some emulators like SNES9X and MAME let you use, you could get it to work. Either that or some program that will allow your video card to scale the screen by a 1 pixel precision. Knowing this, Im pretty sure it would be possible to set up a Framemeister to display a 720 vertical res on an XGA resolution and get perfect results.

Below are some more shots of Kega Fusion, along with the settings needed. I found that you can make the picture with the scanlines look more natural by using between a 0 to 20 sharpness setting.

[Xan]

It looks pretty good, but there is the question what input lag these emulators have, especially VSync'd. If we assume 40-50ms for the plasma, anything on top of that means it will be a lot for many of these games.

But yeah, I also wouldn't mind seeing what some shaders could do on this set.

(why are the pictures in just 640x480 with heavy JPEG compression?)

[Josh128]

Ahhh...my camera resets to 1MP when I change batteries-- I must have forgotten to change it back to 3 MP for the last round.

*Edit, actually no the originals are 3MP. I used the "Large Thumbnail" option to post from imgur. If you go to my location on there you can view in 3MP.

*Edit-- They are all now publicly accessible and viewable in full 3MP resolution.

http://josh128.imgur.com/all/

[andykara2003]

It says: 'Josh128's images are not publicly available.'

[Josh128]

It says: 'Josh128's images are not publicly available.'

I just changed the settings. You should be able to get in now. I think when I changed the images to "Large Thumbnail" it shrunk them to 640x480, I may have to re-up them later in full size.

*Edit - They are all still viewable in full 3MP res, I did not have to re-up them...

[andykara2003]

Nice one - all viewable

[Josh128]

Heh...wasted several hours of my life playing with the D3D CG shaders in SNES9x trying to get perfect scanlines. Was able to get perfect scanlines but with about 10% overscan, achieve some nifty scanline-like effects with a perfect full screen, etc, etc, but nothing as perfect as the result I got from the simple options used in Kega Fusion. Also, the input lag on the SNES9x, with or without VSync, is pretty terrible-- Kega Fusion seems much faster for some reason.

There are literally hundreds of effect and shader combinations possible with SNES9x, but the experience has reminded me why I much rather play the real consoles than emulators-- spent way too much time playing with options, pretty much without achieving my goal of the perfect picture, plus added lag to boot.

SNES9x's CG shaders for scanlines and screen size increase treat the game picture lines and the scanlines as the same size, hence why when you get them perfect you get some overscan in full screen-- it needs two rows for game and two rows for scanlines or 960 vertical pixels, while Kega Fusions implementation uses two rows for game and a single row for scanlines, or 720 pixels. When displayed in a 768p screen res, Kega has a slight vertical underscan, but perfect scanlines.

In any case, I'm pleased just fine with the native 240p output and definitely wont be using emulators as my primary gaming setup anytime soon.

I would still be interested to hear from someone who has both this set and an XRGB, to see if they can output a 720p upscaled/scanlined picture in a 768p frame, as Kega Fusion does, to achieve perfect scanlines.

[lev11]

Having a constant gaming partner in the house is one of the many perks of having children

Definitely, two(+) player co-op games like Lego Batman or Mario 3D World are awesome with the kids.

[andykara2003]

Agreed, My daughter is really good at Mario Kart 8 - we play in clans & she kicks arse!

[Xan]

Just checked the hours on mine, it's right at 100 now. I really can't see any difference in terms of the earlier mentioned "break in" as of right now though. I've been using it a bit to watch Youtube videos as well lately and certainly appreciate the much better contrast/black levels compared to my IPS PC monitor, where viewing any sort of dark content is futile due to glow.

Really wish there was a way to get 1024x768 in 16:9 out of the GPU but that's probably never going to happen unfortunately.

[Josh128]

Just checked the hours on mine, it's right at 100 now. I really can't see any difference in terms of the earlier mentioned "break in" as of right now though. I've been using it a bit to watch Youtube videos as well lately and certainly appreciate the much better contrast/black levels compared to my IPS PC monitor, where viewing any sort of dark content is futile due to glow.

Really wish there was a way to get 1024x768 in 16:9 out of the GPU but that's probably never going to happen unfortunately.

You can do it if you enable the "desktop scrolling" option, on Nvidia cards. Works well, you mouse to the right of the screen and it scrolls to show the rest, while staying at native resolution for the whole image. Also, I PM'ed Fudoh asking if he would be willing to try the XRGB Mini on his 4500, assuming he still has it. With all the custom scaling options available to it, It seems like it could do a mode/setup similar to the Kega Fusion. I'd really like to know if its possible.

[Xan]

Well, I don't see any practical applications in terms of gaming or movie watching for that (if I understand it correctly).

[kamiboy]

...decent quality large widescreen consumer EDTV CRT would possibly give a nicer image but these are nonexistent here in the UK and the Samsung takes up much less space.

EDTV CRT's certainly were rare in Europe, but they did exist. Back in the day after extensive research I got my hand on a Panasonic 29" 4:3 EDTV specifically to play PS2 and Gamecube 480p games via component input. I remember my jaw dropping when I hooked up Wind Waker to it as my first act after purchase.

I still have it, though I rarely use it these days as I have no use for it. I imported mine from Germany, they might have been around in the UK as well.