UK: Men must prove a woman said 'Yes'

[PAPER/ARTILLERY]

d3vak - people's lives are destroyed every single day as a result of rape. These guidelines are an attempt to do something about that, we're all trying to stop people's lives being ruined so why not start by helping the countless rape victims that aren't taken seriously? This isn't an attack on innocent men, it's attempting to help under-represented women.

False allegations have always been a possibility, this change doesn't really have any effect on that. All it does is ensures better investigation, I'm not sure how anyone can oppose that.

[Volteccer_Jack]

I dunno, let's not be sarcastic here.

I'm not being sarcastic. A drunk woman is unable to consent to sex, yet a drunk man is still able to be a sex offender; as the joke goes, you can't explain that. Treating women like children isn't something that should be encouraged in any way, not even vague useless "guidelines", and I'm terribly sorry that some people apparently think I am a creeper who belongs in jail for saying so.

But when we say "sometimes people get executed for murders they don't commit," we don't say "there shouldn't be any more murder trials,"

No of course not. What we say is, "it's better to let ten criminals escape than to punish one innocent." But you know this already, you're just strawmanning as fast as your little hands can type.

"But wait Ed, rape accusers aren't thrown in jail even when their charges fizzle!"

Sure.

I'm glad we agree, but now I'm wondering why you typed a bunch of irrelevant bullshit afterwards, especially that bit where you equate Twitter to prison time.

[louisg]

I dunno, let's not be sarcastic here.

I'm not being sarcastic. A drunk woman is unable to consent to sex, yet a drunk man is still able to be a sex offender; as the joke goes, you can't explain that. Treating women like children isn't something that should be encouraged in any way, not even vague useless "guidelines", and I'm terribly sorry that some people apparently think I am a creeper who belongs in jail for saying so.

I think that if both people are drunk that it's not really the same thing as a sober person deliberately taking advantage of a drunk person. I would *hope* that this would be regardless of gender.

But when we say "sometimes people get executed for murders they don't commit," we don't say "there shouldn't be any more murder trials,"

No of course not. What we say is, "it's better to let ten criminals escape than to punish one innocent." But you know this already, you're just strawmanning as fast as your little hands can type.

I'm glad to see Blackstone's Formulation make an appearance. I was always taught this as a matter of principle. But I think we ARE straying from the article.

Hmm. It's scary that sometimes you get people these days pretending like they're on the left, but every time they speak they sound like a right-winger talking about superpredators or something.

[PAPER/ARTILLERY]

I'm not being sarcastic. A drunk woman is unable to consent to sex

What? Of course they are. You know, not every drunken hook-up ends in a rape allegation. I presume the point you're trying to make is that in the event that it does, guilt is assumed on the side of the man. Judging by the number of rape convictions though, we know this isn't true.

[D]

Why did I click on this thread?
Why?

[drauch]

Why did I click on this thread?
Why?

Because it's controlling your mind right now.

[Ed Oscuro]

I'm glad we agree, but now I'm wondering why you typed a bunch of irrelevant bullshit afterwards, especially that bit where you equate Twitter to prison time.

False equivalence, brah. Any woman making a rape allegation is guaranteed a dose of hell if she speaks up about it. Anybody accused of a rape has a much-better-than-fair chance of beating the rap (see below). You guys gotta stop being selective with your common sense and living male persecution fantasies.

Have no idea where you get the idea that I'm strawmanning with Blackstone there - when really you're lucky to be talking to anybody willing to distract from their case at all by agreeing that innocents should not be punished.

Who made fucking Blackstone, or you, or anybody the person who decides what the ratio is at which we just ignore crimes completely? God? The Constitution? Neither; he comes at a period in history when big guy vs. little guy was fresh in peoples' minds and government impunity during the Elizabethan era and false allegations at Salem were fresh in mind.

No, even if we agree that Blackstone is right and it's ten to one, conviction rates are something like 2% of all reported rapes. Out of all reported rapes, police already have gone halfway towards meeting your beloved Formulation by only arresting 20% of those accused. And of these, only a smaller fraction yet get anything much harsher than that.

Jurists already take Blackstone seriously. Asking prosecutors and police to be the ones to enshrine this ideal betrays a complete lack of understanding about how they actually do their jobs, and also sounds a bit like asking the fox to guard the henhouse.

So what other crimes do you think we shouldn't prosecute, where reports lead to convictions at 6.25%, yet the crime is as serious as rape? Do tell.

[louisg]

Why did I click on this thread?
Why?

Because, like any of us, you're a glutton for punishment. I mean, why else would you play shmups?! ;D

[louisg]

Jurists already take Blackstone seriously. Asking prosecutors and police to be the ones to enshrine this ideal betrays a complete lack of understanding about how they actually do their jobs, and also sounds a bit like asking the fox to guard the henhouse.

That's why I think there are about 3 arguments going at once in this thread, and only one is actually relevant to the guts of the article.

[evil_ash_xero]

I'm a moderate liberal....but the far left just shames me. I'm seeing too many things like this lately. It's awful.

I'll never be right wing, but the far left is some freaky shit.

[Ed Oscuro]

Dear Cop,
Why did you become a cop?

Love
Tim

Little Timmy,
I became a cop because I love scum and want to prevent them from going to jail, however deserved it may be, because you never know when you might fall on top of some broad who is not yet purple, bloated, and dead, and because (according to our friend Jack, from way back) this means that she is capable of saying no. Jack ate a kidney once, which was fine too because she couldn't say no either. Timmy, I hope you know how much I respect women by assuming always that they will not have some man telling them what to do, except when we're doing it for them. But Timmy, could you help me draw a Vern diagram? I drew two circles, one with "INTOXICATED TO SOME DEGREE" and another with "COMPETENT TO STATE ONE'S PREFERENCES" and I forget what to do with them. I think I've got them on different sides of the paper.

Yours Truly,
Cop
Protector of the Peace By Not Enforcing The Laws When Innocents May Go To Jail

[d3vak]

so why not start by helping the countless rape victims that aren't taken seriously? This isn't an attack on innocent men, it's attempting to help under-represented women[/b].

You mean like when Shia LaBeouf said he got molested by some random girl and almost everyone mocked him? Oh, except he's not a woman. Why would this have to be an attempt "to help under-represented women" and not an attempt to help under-represented people?

[Ed Oscuro]

How many stories like this is it going to take for you to realize that this is basically what any woman who goes through a rape puts up with, at a minimum? I mean, fuckin' Cosby alone probably is responsible for more mayhem, and more serious mayhem, than your two anecdotes so far.

I sure as hell didn't laugh at it - I didn't know about it, but I'm not laughing about it now either.

Think how hard it must be to be called "just another gold-digger" or "jealous jezebel" then, or get threats or not be allowed or feel able to continue on as you were before. Most of the media coverage has been cautious. Despite (or possibly because of) the lack of charges it looks like he was able to regain some semblance of normalcy relatively soon after. But who's "everybody?" I'll guess you probably need to find some new Twitter feeds to follow.

Again, who is responsible for these attitudes about men being raped (or at least sexually harassed) being thought of as not serious?

[PAPER/ARTILLERY]

so why not start by helping the countless rape victims that aren't taken seriously? This isn't an attack on innocent men, it's attempting to help under-represented women[/b].

You mean like when Shia LaBeouf said he got molested by some random girl and almost everyone mocked him? Oh, except he's not a woman. Why would this have to be an attempt "to help under-represented women" and not an attempt to help under-represented people?

Because men are already well (possibly over) represented in these situations, that's why these new guidelines are being put into place.

Also, I'm not arguing that female-on-male rape exists but it's probably fair to say that it's much, much rarer than the reverse. You seem to have some sort of victim complex that stops you from acknowledging the problems of countless very-real existing victims.

[Ed Oscuro]

And of who the friends of victims are:

I saw expressions of doubt, scorn and outright rage from people across the ideological spectrum – some fellow feminists included. (Feminists, it should be noted, are also the only ones I see defending LaBeouf. The scant response from “men’s rights activists”, supposed champions of male victims, seems to mainly revolve around how effeminate LaBeouf is for not fighting his attacker hard enough.)

[louisg]

Again, who is responsible for these attitudes about men being raped (or at least sexually harassed) being thought of as not serious?

I do remember reading quite a few editorials along those lines back when it happened, and a quick Google search turned this up:
http://feministcurrent.com/10107/why-ar ... a-labeouf/

There are also episodes such as this, FWIW:
http://www.stanforddaily.com/2015/01/11 ... -my-story/

Guys do get abused and it wouldn't surprise me if it's well under-reported. I even have been in arguments where there was an article about statutory rape between a teacher and a student, and the reaction was "oh, it's not rape because he's probably busy high-fiving all his friends"-- which may well be true, but it's still an adult in a position of power taking advantage of a student. It's sad that some people I know didn't see it that way.

[Captain]

Spoiler

This is already happening. I'm talking about literal virtual reality sex. Probably one of the first uses VR will get once it is actually made.

Now, you may think this sentence is a joke, but is it really?

It would pretty much provide relief to the entire world, regardless of gender, and make people with unfavorable fetishes such as pedophiles harmless.

[d3vak]

How many stories like this is it going to take for you to realize that this is basically what any woman who goes through a rape puts up with, at a minimum? I mean, fuckin' Cosby alone probably is responsible for more mayhem, and more serious mayhem, than your two anecdotes so far.

Oh I do realize that, mate. What I can't stand is biased laws, just because women "rape less" than men, that shouldn't give them any advantage. Here in my country we have some stupid politician who once wanted to defend his party and claimed "Yeah we're guilty but we killed less". Justice should be applied equally regardless of gender.

I sure as hell didn't laugh at it - I didn't know about it, but I'm not laughing about it now either.

But who's "everybody?" I'll guess you probably need to find some new Twitter feeds to follow.

I haven't checked out lately, but I assure you that when the bomb exploded, the vast majority found the case stupid and a forced attempt to seek for attention. If that has changed by now, I'm glad.

Again, who is responsible for these attitudes about men being raped (or at least sexually harassed) being thought of as not serious?

Men themselves. That's true. It is up to us to change that.

[Ed Oscuro]

Piers "traitor to the male race" Morgan lashed out in some tweet, apparently, saying LeBeouf's allegation was insulting to victims of, well, legitimate rape. So lots of people have been using this for political ends without a care for actually persevering in the cause of justice, in any case, and fuck them. There are some not entirely unbelievable guesses as to why LeBeouf would have, or that he could have, engineered the whole business. Like any other business, we have to say, in black and white: "That would be awful if it's true, but maybe there's something to learn from in here. And rape is still bad."

I do remember reading quite a few editorials along those lines back when it happened, and a quick Google search turned this up:
http://feministcurrent.com/10107/why-ar ... a-labeouf/

That's a direct response to my first link, interesting. Also, jesus, put a warning in before linking me to things like that first link. Now THAT is disturbing. Some people kind of have points, but Mostly.Generic and CM do a fine job pointing out some pretty glaring flaws with the kind of thinking that Meghan Murphy is promoting there. Yuck.

@ d3vak: Cheers!

[louisg]

I haven't checked out lately, but I assure you that when the bomb exploded, the vast majority found the case stupid and a forced attempt to seek for attention. If that has changed by now, I'm glad.

Yep, this is also what I recall. There are some pretty outdated attitudes floating around that are not helpful.