Samsung F4500 plasma bargain for 480p sources

[Xan]

Not as much an issue as an observation really, though there is a chance different cables could give different results, but I won't be changing the Nintendo cables for anything else.

[andykara2003]

Hey Josh - I caved & picked up the 43" PE43H4500. I'm thinking of just breaking mine in in one go so I can just play at 20 cell light/decent contrast without having to worry about burn in etc. What would be the best way of doing this?

I think I remember the break-in period is 250 hours, so I'm guessing I could have it continously running for 10 days at 14 cell light with some kind of evenly moving colours on the screen. Do you have any suggestions of how to go about this - or is this a bad idea for some reason?

[Josh128]

Hey Josh - I caved & picked up the 43" PE43H4500. I'm thinking of just breaking mine in in one go so I can just play at 20 cell light/decent contrast without having to worry about burn in etc. What would be the best way of doing this?

I think I remember the break-in period is 250 hours, so I'm guessing I could have it continously running for 10 days at 14 cell light with some kind of evenly moving colours on the screen. Do you have any suggestions of how to go about this - or is this a bad idea for some reason?

I recommend full motion video/channels, either OTA, cable, or satellite. Make sure there are no logos that never move, like on some news channels. Put cell light around 12 or 13, and let it run. You can also game at that level, just vary the content as much as you can for the first 250 hours.

[andykara2003]

Thanks for that, so I could just use the Freeview in the TV itself & just leave that running on a 24 hour channel?

[22point8]

You can use the TV guide to schedule programs to change automatically, but in the early morning most channels wlll either go to news or shopping. You can run slides using the media player. Or you can run the mkv from this page, I recommend dyanamic mode and make sure it auto repeats http://beginwithsoftware.com/videoguide ... MAaqdKsX0y

[andykara2003]

Much appreciated :) With this method, would you recommend keeping the brightness, contrast & cell light fairly low?

[lev11]

Rocketbelt, Josh and 22point8 thanks for your replies a few days ago. Would the passive VGA splitter cause the same 3dB loss? (Or more as there would be several connections in the chain?) And how would I adjust picture settings to compensate. Are talking about power loss in the video signal, and does this manifest in washed out colours?

[Josh128]

Thanks for that, so I could just use the Freeview in the TV itself & just leave that running on a 24 hour channel?

Whatever you do, just be careful if you plan to leave it unattended 24/7, just in case something locks up, etc. Ive left mine on when leaving the house for a few hours, but never overnight or for an entire day that I wasnt home. You just never know what might happen.

[Josh128]

Rocketbelt, Josh and 22point8 thanks for your replies a few days ago. Would the passive VGA splitter cause the same 3dB loss? (Or more as there would be several connections in the chain?) And how would I adjust picture settings to compensate. Are talking about power loss in the video signal, and does this manifest in washed out colours?

Video signal attenuation would manifest in an overall darker/dimmer picture. You would likely have to adjust Cell Light for sure, and possibly color, brightness and/or contrast.

[lev11]

Thanks for that, so I could just use the Freeview in the TV itself & just leave that running on a 24 hour channel?

Or USB sideshow here: http://www.eaprogramming.com/downloads/ ... d_main.htm, I used it on mine for a few nights, so no chance of a TV program coming on with an OSD. Also turned pixel shift off in screen burn protection, as it always seemed to be protecting the top and left 3 or 4 rows and columns so in this instance would be leaving them un-burned in. The slideshow is weirdly transfixing, and two red slides are the same.

[andykara2003]

Brilliant thanks guys this is so helpful - looking forward to seeing what all the fuss is about re. this TV:)

[Josh128]

Below are my split analog 480i FZero GX photo lag tests. They show a consistent 50ms on the game timer. For reference comparison my previous analog 240p photo tests with FZero show from 3 to 4 centiseconds and my 1024x768 (native) photo tests vs a CRT VGA monitor show a pretty consistent 47 ms. Those tests may be tainted though, as I used both an HDMI port AND a VGA port from the same Geforce card to feed the sets respectively-- not sure how much difference, if any, there is between the ports. Those photos are back at the bottom of page 7.

Not much difference for the 480i, as I previously mentioned, but the 50ms was consistent and I took multiple photos to see if it varied.

[andykara2003]

Interesting - so 240p (and 480p) is between 30ms and 40ms - I would have thought that native 1024x768 would have to at least match that. Perhaps the extra 10ms or so is, as you say, down to the difference between the VGA and HDMI outputs on your card? I used to use s-video vs vga from the same card for this but that PC is long gone now. I'm thinking maybe s-video vs vga might be more accurate but I'm no expert in this. Or maybe there is some other more obscure reason why native is slower...

[Josh128]

Not quite sure either. I definitely dont like the fact that I had to use 2 different outputs, 1 analog, 1 digital, for the PC test. Theres just no way of knowing if they are different, if even just a little. Its always best to use the same input, preferably analog, through a passive splitter, that way there is no question the timing is identical.

So the Bodnar tests show 38ms.
FZero SNES split analog 240p, 30-40ms.
Geforce dual port Native, 46-47ms
FZero GX 480i split analog 480i, 50ms

If anyone has an HDMI splitter and can do a thorough photo test with different res's, PC Mode, and Game Mode ON/OFF, that would be great. I dont have the resources to do that.

[andykara2003]

Ahh well - as long as we have the 30-40ms for 480p & 240p that's great. For the games I want to play on it that should be perfectly fine.

[Josh128]

Ahh well - as long as we have the 30-40ms for 480p & 240p that's great. For the games I want to play on it that should be perfectly fine.

Andy, what kind of setup are you using with this set (systems, connections, processors, etc.)? Also curious as to how the break-in is going and your initial opinions based on what youve tried thus far.

[andykara2003]

The set's arriving tomorrow - I've just been preparing for it's arrival so I can get going straight away with the break in. I love the Nintendo stuff (first & second party mostly), & so I got the TV mainly for the Gamecube & Wii. I was interested in it as it apparently seems to resolve the not-so-great 480p output of these consoles particularly well. I use my BVM for the earlier consoles.

I have my NEC XV29 for the 4:3 GC stuff & more lag-critical games and will use the Samsung for the games that really benefit from a big widescreen like the Mario Galaxys, Zelda, Metroid etc. I won't be using a processor and both the 'Cube & Wii have official component cables. The Wii is one of the later RVL-101 versions I bought for the (marginally) better component output.

I've set the Wii up on my older Panasonic G10 plasma and am looking forward to comparing it (and the NEC) to the Samsung tomorrow. The Panasonic is fairly forgiving of 480p stuff for a 1080p set but the Wii still looks quite rough on it. I'm hoping the Samsung will look quite a bit better than the Panasonic with the Wii/'Cube - but I'm not expecting it to look quite as good as the NEC, which is understandable as the NEC is really exceptional with these consoles in particular.

For the break in, I have the option of using slides mentioned by Lev11 or the MVK files 22point8 directed me to - what would you recommend as the best option? I'm not sure if both/either wil loop continuously on an SD card/USB stick.

Really looking forward to testing this set & I'll post my findings on here over the weekend :)

[Josh128]

The set's arriving tomorrow - I've just been preparing for it's arrival so I can get going straight away with the break in. I love the Nintendo stuff (first & second party mainly), & so I got the TV mostly for the Gamecube & Wii. I was interested in it as it apparently seems to resolve the not-so-great 480p output of these consoles particularly well. I use my BVM for the earlier consoles.

I have my NEC XV29 for the 4:3 GC stuff & more lag-critical games and will use the Samsung for the games that really benefit from a big widescreen like the Mario Galaxys, Zelda, Metroid etc. I won't be using a processor and both the 'Cube & Wii have official component cables. The Wii is one of the later RVL-101 versions I bought for the (marginally) better component output.

I've set the Wii up on my older Panasonic G10 plasma and am looking forward to comparing it (and the NEC) to the Samsung tomorrow. The Panasonic is fairly forgiving of 480p stuff for a 1080p set but the Wii still looks quite rough on it. I'm hoping the Samsung will look quite a bit better than the Panasonic with the Wii/'Cube - but I'm not expecting it to look quite as good as the NEC, which is understandable as the NEC is really exceptional with these consoles in particular.

For the break in, I have the option of using slides mentioned by Lev11 or the MVK files 22point8 directed me to - what would you recommend as the best option? I'm not sure if both/either wil loop continuously.

Really looking forward to testing this set & I'll post my findings on here over the weekend

Remember first thing to disable the "Eco Sensor/Mode". Also, the color and contrast will improve noticably (they did in all my sets) after the first couple hundred hours of use-- in order to see the full PQ of the set you will need to get it properly broken in first.

Im very confident that this sets contrast and color reproduction will go toe to toe with any set out there, including your NEC CRT. It obviously wont be as sharp, but I think you'll be impressed.

Slides of any kind are fine if you can get them to continuously loop-- even with a PC you can create full screen colors and play them as a full screen continuous looping slideshow in Windows picture and fax viewer.

[22point8]

The slides can loop endlessly in the tvs built in slideshow if you set it to do so. It will definitely beat a panasonic g10 for contrast ratio, that range of panasonics had a built in aging/panel longevity thing where after however many hours the black level rises, I think theres a thread on AVS about it.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/167-plasm ... night.html

I don't know about the mkv, I burned the dvd instead, which I know does run on an infinate loop

[andykara2003]

Thanks guys - the slideshow it is then, as I'd rather not have to use an external device.

So as far as settings go, I should disable The Eco Sensor/Mode & have the cell light at 12 or 13. Can I ask what contrast/colour/brightness I should set and are there any other settings I should use?

[Xan]

You mean just for your break-in? I don't think it matters, but in any case... use the 240p suite, brightness so that 1 or 2 in the PLUGE full RGB is pitch black, contrast as high as possible until color clipping happens and white has a tint, color about 44-46 as per AVS DVD but the default 50 gives more saturated colors. All processing off, black optimiser auto.

[Josh128]

Thanks guys - the slideshow it is then, as I'd rather not have to use an external device.

So as far as settings go, I should disable The Eco Sensor/Mode & have the cell light at 12 or 13. Can I ask what contrast/colour/brightness I should set and are there any other settings I should use?

If you're just running slides, running a higher cell light, such as 22point8 recommended, may help to break it in a little faster. The 12 or 13 I recommended would be for breaking in with actual use, such as actual gameplay or TV or movies you are actually watching.

If you are alternating between pure red, green, and blue slides, its not possible to have any kind of IR or burn in, so technically you should be OK if you decided to use a 20 cell light right from the start. You could also do a combination of the two, e.g. run the first 24 hours at 12, the next 24 at 13, and so on and so forth until you pass the 250 hour mark. This way you would be going easier on the brand new panel and gradually cranking it up.

I dont know the exact science of how the phosphors age or wear, but that last approach would seem very sensible to me.

[Josh128]

Some more photos of NES stuff. It appears taking the photos in a dark room with a very low cell light (2 or so), yields much more consistent results with my old camera.

[Xan]

First time I see the NES on this. Interpolation is way too obvious here, it's almost like running a filter on an emulator...

[Josh128]

First time I see the NES on this. Interpolation is way too obvious here, it's almost like running a filter on an emulator...

Really? I posted quite a few NES pictures earlier (page 1) in this thread.

Thats the dedicated 720/240p mode. Its a little softer than running said games in 480p, but I personally really like the look-- in person, when playing from 5' away, it doesnt appear blurry at all-- on the 1080p 5300 set it does though, which is yet another reason I prefer the 4500.

Another thing about this mode that is so great is that N64 and even PS1 actually look quite nice with no upscaler-- most LCDs, and the Panny X60 I owned previously, have edges that are much too sharp, which looks very bad on N64 and PS1.

[andykara2003]

I've had a bit of time with the TV now & I thought I'd share some thoughts. I've been testing it with Mario Galaxy on the Wii as I know the game well & the Wii's 480p output is particularly hard to get to look good on HDTVs. I do like the set quite a bit & it's quite a step up in quality from my 1080p Panasonic plasma. The image is definitely smoother and, as other people have said, the SDE plays a big part in smoothing the image in the same way that a CRT would.

I've found that there's a very delicate balance in getting a nice, clean vibrant picture without overdoing any aspect of the image controls. As soon as the sharpness or contrast gets a little too high, the image degrades quite quickly for me. My aim was to end up with the most vibrant possible image without degrading the image at all. These are the values I used:

Cell light: 20
Contrast: 70
Brightness: 55
Sharpness: 20
Colour: 44
Dynamic contrast: off
Black tone: off (might experiment with low)

I'm not as technically minded as some here so excuse the terminology:

As I say, the image is really sensitive to over sharpening and high contrast. As you go above about a sharpness of 20-25, the haloing gets unpleasant. Fudoh's analogy about the sharpness is spot on - as you go higher, the image looks less like RGB and more like s-video.

Any kind of dynamic contrast was way too much for me & even without it, I couldn't go above a contrast of 70 without colour 'smearing'/bleeding which is really unpleasant to me.

I think the brightness will come down a bit when the set's broken in. I can't quite get the image as vibrant as I'd like without overdoing the settings but again, I expect that'll be remedied by the break in. If not, I'd rather game with low ambient light that push the any of the settings too high.

Overall, I can see why people are saying that, for 480p, this is the perfect flat panel for the Nintendo consoles. The rough panel with it's prominent SDE reigns in the Wii's poor component output. The N64 is similar in that it doesn't look very nice on my BVM (unlike everything else I run on it), but looks much better and more 'cohesive' on my 21" consumer Trinitron due to the way the TV smoothes out the blurry/pixelated graphics.

The Wii's image on this is really impressive for a flat panel, but it's a bit nicer on my NEC ( I compared the NEC to the Samsung in 4:3 mode to get a fair comparison). Fudoh told me that would be the case & so I'm not disappointed as I knew what I was getting into. They are pretty close though, and the Samsung looks surprisingly similar to the NEC in some ways. The image is a bit smoother and cleaner on the NEC and the colours seem more natural. The Samsung's SDE is a bit rough compared to the fine shadow mask of the NEC, which looks more 'refined'. My conclusion was that if the Samsung is a step above in quality above my Panasonic, then the NEC is half a step again above the Samsung.

Still, I'm happy I have the Samsung as I bought it for the ability to play these games on a big widescreen without them looking awful - and it's a fantastic TV for that. I guess that for 480p widescreen games, a decent quality large widescreen consumer EDTV CRT would possibly give a nicer image but these are nonexistent here in the UK and the Samsung takes up much less space. In fact my 10 year old daughter's delighted as it's going into her room (she loves the Nintendo stuff). Having a constant gaming partner in the house is one of the many perks of having children :)

[Fudoh]

and your subjective feeling about the lag compared to the NEC?

[andykara2003]

I found the lag to be right on the outer edge of what I find acceptable (my Panasonic plasma is much faster). I haven't played enough yet to be sure, but it doesn't seem to be too much of a problem in actual gameplay. It's quite noticeable compared to the NEC in some instances, like when swiping the Wii pointer across the screen, but I think that's an instance where lag is particularly noticeable - more so than platforming through levels on Mario Galaxy.

I don't know how that will pan out in the long term, perhaps it'll end up bugging me, but from what I've played, I don't think so. I have to admit, going back to the NEC after tinkering with the Samsung, I really appreciated how the pointer instantaneously mirrors your actions. I have a feeling, though, that for the Mario & Zelda type games I'll be playing it won't be a problem and I'll be able to forget about it whilst playing. Maybe it might be a bit laggy for lag-sensitive people who want to use it for games based on twitch gameplay.

Saying all of that, though, I am quite sensitive to lag and I think the lag on the Samsung is low enough that to a lot of people out there it'll be a complete non-issue.



I forgot to mention something. Excuse my ignorance on this, but there's an artefact occurring during motion that is quite distracting on the Samsung. In Mario Galaxy, if I go into first person camera mode and sweep the camera across the green 'grassy' areas of the Galaxy hub world, large, grainy patches of tiny dots appear - almost the same green colour it seems, but much too small, individually, to be pixels. This is not visible when the camera is still. Can anyone tell me what this is?

[Ed Oscuro]

Very interesting. What's the models of the Panasonic and NEC displays?

[andykara2003]

They are a Panasonic TX-P46G10B and an NEC XV29 plus