Samsung F4500 plasma bargain for 480p sources

[Josh128]

In response to the OP: Are you honestly happy with 32+ ms lag? I come from the competitive Super Smash Bros. Melee scene and the general consensus here is that anything slower than 16 ms is not to be used for tournaments or serious play because it interferes with players’ reaction times too much.

I always use CRTs because of their speed (670 nanoseconds as established by prad.de’s input lag article) and some of the 31khz++ PC monitors I bought for 7-15€ have amazing picture quality. Especially my Sony GDM-F520 and Philips 109MP. My Panasonic DiamondTron 2070SB is fine too, but its red is less intense. Very minor problem for gaming, though.

My source is a PAL Gamecube with 480p D-Terminal cables modified for RGBHV / VGA output, by the way.

Absolutely. I dont believe a human can consistently react/respond faster than 30-40 ms to begin with. Can it be perceived? In some cases, possibly-- but without a zero lag display on the side of it, unlikely for most folks.

I can finish Mega Man, Ghouls N Ghosts, UN Squadron, Axelay, etc with zero noticable difference in timing or play efficiency from the CRTs I originally played them on years ago. My timing still seems right on.

As far as even for competitive SSB, I dont understand how it can be that much of an issue as BOTH players are contending with the exact same lag? I understand the want/desire for 0, but the need?

[andykara2003]

I have to say that I do think zero lag or at least very low lag is very important for competitive smash though.

[Ed Oscuro]

There's two things to consider about lag however.

First, there is the obvious - getting closer to the minimum can help turn in better performances, especially against human opponents or online (where there's other lag factors to consider and any bit of speed helps). In singleplayer games this probably can be mostly mitigated by following audio cues (assuming they're not delayed) or by using memory, even (and especially) for 1/60th second precise inputs.

There's a complicating factor: Nobody really talks about it, but it's also assumed that input lag times being turned in are set in stone and aren't variable so long as monitor / television settings aren't changed. I don't entirely buy this, partly given that even the Leo Bodnar results for can change from one review site to another, and partly given the increasing complexity of the processing and circuitry inside these beasts. Lag timing changes wouldn't be problematic if it was actually the result of a settings difference (so in fact would be actually identical given identical settings) or the result of warming up (panel response time increasing as a panel warms up is a known LCD phenomenon). But we don't really have a way to prove this, as input lag is still hard to measure and can't be simply grabbed like studying frame rate variance, which is increasingly being understood and discussed as a problem.

The other thing to consider about lag follows from the previous two things: Repeatability. It's well known that people are able to repeat certain movements (and therefore inputs) with roughly millisecond precision. Ray Charles was able to time his finger movements to 2.5ms (though they don't state the precision, or they're being a bit sloppy with the terminology). Likewise millisecond-ish accuracy is important for many competitive games.

Probably, for normal singleplayer gaming, this gets into diminishing returns. It might even be worth a study to see how people perform at different known levels of latency - at least if it can be assumed that there's no problems with adaptiveness, which unfortunately implies a huge study involving lots of participants running the same game for score. Probably, though, it's enough to say "I play the hardest stuff I used to on CRT just as well, and the feel is about as good" for most cases. Competitive gaming or really stringent reflex demands are a rarity in much gaming.

[Xan]

Josh, have you looked at the stuff I mentioned in my last post?

Dynamic contrast should be avoided in any case IMO, it makes the picture look ugly. Black tone is a bit more complicated but auto seems to give the brightest whites, thus it's probably the best setting given heavy ABL on this set.

[22point8]

Actually from my findings a few pages back I said what dynamic contrast does. It increases gamma towards black, and it decreases towards white like a ramp, and that makes it behave like a CRT, I posted measurements from 2 PVMs and a consumer trinitron. I'd only use it if playing a game that was on CRT, an
d prefer it off myself.

Black tone, without dynamic contrast 'dark' might be usable if near black stuff is too visible but it just seems pointless overall, it doesn't affect black level.

Black optimiser however is beneficial. It isn't processing, you know how a plasma is always glowing in when on a full black screen? Thats because the cells are being precharged, black optimiser makes the completely black pixels precharge for only half the time, so the black is blacker.

Off = normal black, normal white
Dark room = Darkest black, normal white
Bright room= Dark black and increased white
Auto= Same black as 'Dark room', almost same white a bright room.

[Xan]

Does "was on CRT" count for Wii games though? I've only looked at this setting with PS3 games and thought it should be off.

[andykara2003]

I must admit all this lag talk is putting me off buying this TV. I am sensitive to lag & 40ms might just be past my acceptable limit...

[22point8]

Does "was on CRT" count for Wii games though? I've only looked at this setting with PS3 games and thought it should be off.

Yeah off for ps3, but something like a megadrive if you look at the 240p test suite you can see the megadrive has a limited palette (only about 8 greyscale steps) so the higher gamma near black doesn't matter. I guess a NES would also not be affected.

As for lag I've never had a problem I've been playing Bayonetta, the inferior ps3 version and I haven't had any problems dodging attacks.

The only Wii game I've tried on the plasma is Nights: Journey of Dreams, but then that game looked poor on a PVM too.

[Josh128]

Had a few rounds of Megadrive gaming with my son last night, playing Altered Beast and Ghouls N Ghosts. Looked so good I had to pull out the camera. The shots came out pretty decent.








Full res photos below:

http://imgur.com/a/X3Gnj

[Josh128]

Josh, have you looked at the stuff I mentioned in my last post?

Dynamic contrast should be avoided in any case IMO, it makes the picture look ugly. Black tone is a bit more complicated but auto seems to give the brightest whites, thus it's probably the best setting given heavy ABL on this set.

I havent had a chance to put up that pattern from the 240p test suite or try the targetting in Skyward Sword, Ill check into it when I have a chance.

I fiddle with settings from time to time, but I dont find that Dynamic Contrast set to Low degrades the picture. Im not dead set on keeping it, but I find it gives the picture a little more "pop" than having it completely off.

[Xan]

I've looked into dynamic contrast again, what I meant earlier is the loss of detail in dark areas (as seen on the PS3, and probably dark Wii games as well). Now I don't fully grasp the concept of gamma yet in order to see it in that context, but with the bright graphics of Skyward Sword setting it to "low" seems to have a similar visual impact as boosting color by 5-10 or so. This I already have on default 50, which is oversaturated on purpose I believe, correct as per AVS DVD would be 43 or 44, but that looks slightly desaturated to me in some games, maybe I am spoiled by years of looking at badly calibrated displays.

[Josh128]

I've looked into dynamic contrast again, what I meant earlier is the loss of detail in dark areas (as seen on the PS3, and probably dark Wii games as well). Now I don't fully grasp the concept of gamma yet in order to see it in that context, but with the bright graphics of Skyward Sword setting it to "low" seems to have a similar visual impact as boosting color by 5-10 or so. This I already have on default 50, which is oversaturated on purpose I believe, correct as per AVS DVD would be 43 or 44, but that looks slightly desaturated to me in some games, maybe I am spoiled by years of looking at badly calibrated displays.

Yeah, I think the AVS and Disney WOW discs want color around 44-46 or so, but seems a bit bland for my tastes as well. To be clear, Im not a huge fan of the look of a perfectly calibrated display for video games. What I have done is use the discs for a baseline, then played the games and tweeked them to my personal tastes. I just dont like minimal sharpness on my games. Ive been playing around with it since the discussions earlier and think GC games look pretty good at 25, but my 240p systems appear too soft for my tastes there-- I have settled on a setting of 45 for all my gaming sources and like it. Its slightly less than default, and something I can live with. For my video sources Im using 30.

Back to the dynamic contrast though-- your brightness of 41 is probably too low to use Dynamic Contrast Low-- this might explain why you are seeing some black crush-- you also need to check your HDMI Black Level when using PS3 and X360. If set wrong you will definitely crush blacks. This is not an option on component sources. There is no black crush on Wii or GC on my settings, blacks still rarely show without some degree of dithering. I didnt see any on Xbox 360 either, but Im not sure if I was using the same settings there. Its currently on my sons 4500.

[Xan]

Nah the levels are right, I set full range on the PS3 and normal on the TV. I also run brightness 44 on HDMI as written earlier, and I've checked again with the Wii and 42 seems just enough for no dithering with the Zelda black bars. 43 gives dithering on the top bar but not the bottom one, can't make any sense out of that.

[Josh128]

Nah the levels are right, I set full range on the PS3 and normal on the TV. I also run brightness 44 on HDMI as written earlier, and I've checked again with the Wii and 42 seems just enough for no dithering with the Zelda black bars. 43 gives dithering on the top bar but not the bottom one, can't make any sense out of that.

Well, I did confirm that I wasnt running Dynamic Contrast on my BFXZA model, which is the one with the 360 on it. It does seem to make shadow detail a little dark. Doesnt seem to do that with my component sources on my AFXZA though.

You are still talking about Skyward Sword right, I still havent had a chance to check, I'll try tonight (have to work, its 6am here now).

[22point8]

Nah the levels are right, I set full range on the PS3 and normal on the TV. I also run brightness 44 on HDMI as written earlier, and I've checked again with the Wii and 42 seems just enough for no dithering with the Zelda black bars. 43 gives dithering on the top bar but not the bottom one, can't make any sense out of that.

Xan, read this http://referencehometheater.com/2014/co ... s-limited/

Q: Since video games use the Full RGB palette, shouldn’t I use Full RGB when playing video games and then Limited RGB for movies?

A: No. Most video games are designed using the Full RGB spectrum since they are designed on computers which use that. However, when you are playing a Full RGB game and your video game console is set to Limited, it takes this into account. The video levels are shifted from 0-255 down to 16-235 and the gamma curve is adjusted to match a TV as well. You aren’t losing anything as the system is accounting for this.

Q: When I choose limited, I get a washed out image. When I choose full, shadows are crushed. Which is correct?

A: If you are on a TV, then Limited is still correct. The washed-out image is caused by your brightness setting being too high. You should use a calibration disc, like the free AVS 709 disc, World of Wonder, or Spears & Munsil, to set this correctly. Then your black levels will be correct in limited, you will see shadow details, and it won’t be washed out.

Q: My TV supports Full mode, shouldn’t I use this?

A: No. TVs support Full to make them easier to calibrate. Most TVs will not display a black level below 16 because video content should never have it. By letting you see Black 15 or 14, it can make it easier to calibrate the display and get the black level correct. However, you really should not use this as your main setting as most displays are not designed to display levels below 16, and often introduce color tints when doing white levels past 240 or so. Additionally, if you restrict yourself to levels 16-235 you wind up with a brighter image with a better contrast ratio, as you can turn up the contrast level higher. Contrast Ratio is the thing your eye notices most, and so it will produce a more pleasing image.

Also, since any non-video game content will only use 16-235, these picture settings will work for all inputs and sources, not just a single source.

Q: Should I set my video game system to Auto instead of choosing Limited or Full?

A: No. If you can choose Limited or Full, you are best to do this. The system will choose based on the EDID of your display, or your receiver, whatever it connects directly to. Usually this is fine but some devices report incorrectly, or the system interprets it incorrectly. A good example is the Roku 3, which doesn’t let you change this setting. A receiver I was tested reported an incorrect EDID to my Roku, forcing it into Full RGB which crushed all the shadows and made the image look bad. Had the Roku let me change this, I could have avoided the issue. Since you know which you should pick, you should always do it because you can avoid complications.

Q: What about Superwhite mode on a PS3 or PS4?

A: Superwhite enables YCbCr values over 235 (or 240 in the case of Y) to be displayed. It will not harm anything, and you should leave it enabled. Some Blu-ray content has specular highlights, like sunlight off a lake, that can be above peak-white and would be hidden otherwise. This lets you see this content if you want, but otherwise won’t harm the image either. It doesn’t expand the dynamic range, it just allows values greater than the usual peak to pass through.

Hopefully this has cleared up some more of the confusion with this setting. The rule of Limited RGB with TVs and Full RGB with PC Monitors still applies. You might just need to calibrate your TV after you set this correctly to make sure you see all of the data.

[Josh128]

^^

Some good info. Only applies to HDMI capable systems, of course, unless you are going through an HDMI upscaler like a Framemeister.

[22point8]

Found a clip that perfectly demonstrates what black optimiser does.

http://www.demo-world.eu/download-2d-tr ... ky_way.jpg

It has lots of black with stars and stuff, so when the screen isn't completely black, the black optimiser can half the time that the black pixels are precharged and it results in really dark black.

It also has lots of fully black screens where you can see all the cells are glowing because they are being precharged, in a dark room its a visible glow compared to a bottomless pit black when there is other content on screen. (full black screen is 0.007 candela, but still glows)

Also black optimiser is nothing new, Pioneer and Panasonic plasmas do it by default, the Samsungs just added it and let you turn it off.

Other nice demo clips I found were:

http://www.demo-world.eu/download-2d-tr ... _birth.jpg

http://www.demo-world.eu/download-2d-tr ... q_demo.jpg

http://www.demo-world.eu/download-2d-tr ... v_demo.jpg

http://www.demo-world.eu/download-2d-tr ... ection.jpg

http://www.demo-world.eu/download-2d-tr ... _magic.jpg

http://www.demo-world.eu/download-2d-tr ... ng_fun.jpg

[Xan]

I've recently tried RE4 Wii on the Samsung, of all the Wii games this is probably the only one I'd rather play on a 15 kHz CRT. It's letterboxed in 4:3, but looks sharp, in 16:9 it looks really zoomed in and cramped because of the vert- and overscan. It doesn't even fill the screen horizontally, there are small borders at the sides. It looks blurry and color depth issues are a lot more apparent compared to a CRT, clearly the game was designed around the smaller rendering area in 4:3 and the 16:9 mode was just an afterthought to meet demand. All the other Wii games I have with real hor+ 16:9 look great on the plasma though.

[Josh128]

I've recently tried RE4 Wii on the Samsung, of all the Wii games this is probably the only one I'd rather play on a 15 kHz CRT. It's letterboxed in 4:3, but looks sharp, in 16:9 it looks really zoomed in and cramped because of the vert- and overscan. It doesn't even fill the screen horizontally, there are small borders at the sides. It looks blurry and color depth issues are a lot more apparent compared to a CRT, clearly the game was designed around the smaller rendering area in 4:3 and the 16:9 mode was just an afterthought to meet demand. All the other Wii games I have with real hor+ 16:9 look great on the plasma though.

I have the GC version which ran in a 16:9 ish letterbox on a 4:3 screen! If you zoom to fill the screen on the plasma, the lower resolution really shows. I thought the Wii version ran in real 16:9, but I dont have it so I didnt know for sure.

In any case, you are right-- the GC version must run at the same res as the Wii version, because even when I zoom to fill the screen, I have the same small spaces on the sides that you speak of. That said, my original RE4 GC experience was on my 36" 31KHz Hitachi Ultravision Digital via 480p component, and while a 4:3 set, even back then I could tell the screen res was lower than most GC games, and the game seems to run in 16 bit color or something, because close ups on textures exhibit some rainbow looking colors, especially on lighter gray and stone colors. This not because of the plasma though, as it looked the same on my Hitachi CRT. This would be less readily apparent on a 15Khz set as you say though.

I never ran the game on a 15Khz CRT, even back when I first bought it. Maybe because of that, I actually dont mind the grainier look on the plasma (and remember I got the big one!), and I still think the color reproduction and contrast of the set look quite nice despite the games resolution and color weaknesses. Also, the first plasma I ran this game on was my previous Panasonic 50x60, and while I had it dialed in and it looked OK, it looks a lot better on the F4500. Ive actually played quite a bit of the game on the plasmas since its been probably almost 10 years since I played it seriously and had gotten back into it recently with my son. We are probably more than halfway through the game and you do get use to it, and begin appreciating the nice contrasty scenes and big picture more than the detraction of the graininess.

This is just me though, and I dont mind (actually like) some sharpness and seeing pixels and line edges on my 480p content.

**One thing I did notice on this particular game though (you may try this) was that game mode vs. non game mode made a very noticable difference in PQ. Turning game mode OFF got rid of a lot of the ugly graininess in the textures. Not sure if this is the DCV and MPEG Noise Filters or some other processing, but you might try turning these on and off and also going in and out of game mode to see the difference. The difference was readily apparent in real time when switching Game Mode on my BFXZA model-- I'll try to get the exact settings for you, but I definitely preferred to have the GM off for this particular game

[Xan]

Yeah the interlacing together with the flicker filter will mask the dithering almost entirely on a 15 kHz tube. Even in 4:3 480p on the Samsung it's not that apparent, but blowing up all the pixels in 16:9 makes the game look pretty crude at times. You don't actually seem to lose any ingame FOV by using 16:9, but having it in full screen does give off that effect, an optical illusion perhaps. It's certainly possible to get used to it though.

They added this 16:9 mode in the PS2 port actually. It looks the same on Wii and PS2 from what I can tell. Really just zooms the game in. I have all 3 console versions of the game (GC, PS2, Wii) btw. The HD remakes don't count because they suck. They didn't care for properly redoing all of the nice fog effects that were in the original game, but just upped the resolution, reused the same low poly assets and slapped "HD" on it.

I've played through this game like 5 times on the different platforms over the years, it's a short game after all, and I think it's the last great Capcom game. They dropped the ball with RE5, which had zero horror elements, and RE6 is a total trainwreck from what I've played of it.

Just gave your suggestion a quick try, and you might be onto something here. Looking at Krausers plaga arm when starting a game in The Mercenaries, there does seem to be a small difference with game mode on/off, it seems to look just a bit harsher with game mode on. Can't really rule out that it could be just my imagination though, hard to make a definitive statement on this. But looking at some other parts the effect does seem to be fairly reproducible to me, albeit it's really subtle. I also made sure to switch off all processing settings outside of game mode, btw.

[Josh128]

I've played through this game like 5 times on the different platforms over the years, it's a short game after all, and I think it's the last great Capcom game. They dropped the ball with RE5, which had zero horror elements, and RE6 is a total trainwreck from what I've played of it.

Just gave your suggestion a quick try, and you might be onto something here. Looking at Krausers plaga arm when starting a game in The Mercenaries, there does seem to be a small difference with game mode on/off, it seems to look just a bit harsher with game mode on. Can't really rule out that it could be just my imagination though, hard to make a definitive statement on this. But looking at some other parts the effect does seem to be fairly reproducible to me, albeit it's really subtle. I also made sure to switch off all processing settings outside of game mode, btw.

Just found it-- it is the "Digital Clean View" option. Any scene with rolling fog and /or varied textures shows a dramatic difference in roughness when going from "OFF" to "High" on DCV. I tried with with and without Game Mode, works either way. "Auto" sometimes shows the difference and sometimes doesnt, depending on some automatic scene calculation I guess. When comparing, use the "OFF" setting compared to the "High" setting, the difference is quite apparent. MPEG Noise Filter doesnt seem to affect it.


Try it and see what you think-- the vertical lines present in moving fog basically disappear when you set DCV to "High". Quite a nice effect, for this game only. Pretty cool to actually find a legitimate use for the effect, because it does cause ghosting in 60fps 480i and 240p games.

BTW, I totally agree on RE4 being one of the last great Capcom games. Its one of my favorite games of all time. RE5 didnt even come close, felt more like Contra than RE.

[Xan]

But can you see any difference with just game mode on/off? I thought this was the interesting part, since we previously assumed that game mode itself doesn't really change the processing. Although it does mention a "slight degradation in graphics" so...

I tried DCV high, it makes everything smear while turning just like on a bad LCD, I don't like that. I also don't see any difference with the dithering right now tbh. At this point I should probably mention again that I updated the firmware on my TV so there might be differences.

Edit: ok, now I see what you mean. It's visible in the village Mercenaries stage. Yeah it does sort of blend the fog in a lot, quite noticeable. But honestly scrolling through these options, it feels like it almost eliminates the fog. I'm not sure if that's desirable, at all. But in any case, the setting gives me nausea so I wouldn't use it anyway. Definitely try just game mode off with all other settings being on off, though, if even for a very slight difference.

DCV "low" could be a serious compromise though, if even just for this game. It reduces a lot of the noise on screen but keeps the fog more or less visible. The smearing effect when moving doesn't seem that pronounced, either. Be sure to try that out.

With DCV I get the feeling that everything on screen moves slower the higher you go though, it's hard to describe... but it's the same effect I was talking about when describing how 288p games look on this set (with this option being on). Comparing DCV off to high now, the pointer definitely seems snappier when it's off. Seems very possible that it adds input lag, I guess it makes sense if it buffers a frame or even more for processing. Not able to confirm this with the manual lag test currently though.

Another good point of comparison for DCV that I found is the startup screen for RE4 in the Wii menu, btw. When it's off there is a repeating tremble+glowing effect going on. With low this is a bit less pronounced, but still similar, and with medium and high the tremble isn't visible at all anymore, just the glow. So there's some serious processing going on there that's definitely not desirable for games. Sucks that you don't have the Wii version to see this yourself.

tl;dr DCV low could be acceptable at times, I'd not go any higher and off is the safest choice.

[Josh128]

Oh dont get me wrong-- DCV is the bane of my existence-- I thought for months that this set could not do proper 480i without ghosting because of it. Once I found it was responsible, I immediately turned it off. I always make sure its off, but for this particular game only, I did find it can lessen the impact of the lower resolution.

As far as the ghosting/trailing, I havent really played the game at all with it on, mostly just tried to see the difference it made ON vs. OFF, so if it does I havent experienced it-- but that is definitely what it does to 2D games and some 480i 3D games such as MGS3. At least when on AUTO, it appears to affect darker content more than bright, colorful content.

I didnt notice any lag difference when toying around with it earlier, but I didnt really play the game at all either. Its possible, but I'd have to set up another photo test to prove it conclusively.

I brought it up and recommended you try it as I thought you might prefer how it smooths the grain on RE4 after hearing you speak about its low res look when stretched full screen. I wanted you to see the diff between OFF and HIGH because its the most dramatic. Its a very noticable difference on the 51" set, regardless of the scene/area.



As far as the difference between game mode ON and OFF, if all processing effects are turned off, I dont see a difference at all, other than the audio being louder with it ON. Keep in mind though, that the set remembers and keeps specific settings for ON vs. OFF, so if anything at all doesnt match, that could account for the difference you are seeing, if you are seeing a difference. I looked earlier, making sure all settings were the same for ON vs OFF, and I could not see any difference at all when switching between the two.

Now, I'll check again, but I do think that maybe the first time you enable Game Mode it defaults with DCV and MPEG Noise Filter off?? Not 100% on that, but I remember seeing a big difference in 2D games scrolling motion when I first got my set by changing it-- Ive since fiddled with so many settings, so many times, theres no telling what was enabled and disabled on Game Mode when it was brand new.

Curious as to why you upgraded the firmware. What did you come from and what version did you go to? What new options/differences do you see and/or what is it supposed to fix?

[Xan]

I made sure that all other settings are identical with game mode on/off. The difference appears minuscule - the "stripes" on textures seem to appear just a little bit more smoothened out with game mode being off. Sharpness is at 15 for both settings.

As for 480i, that's simply not good enough for my taste on this TV. It also drives the lag into unacceptable territory. Really, I think the only deinterlacing that I could take would be the old XRGB style where it supposedly works on single fields, sort of mimicking a CRT, though I don't know how that looks in real.

I don't remember which firmware was installed on the TV, I updated right when I got it "just because". Unfortunately they don't give any changelogs, and none of the menu options appear to have changed. I was also curious to see if they added proper 288p detection, though they didn't. As I write this post I see that there is an even newer version now for the H4500, just a week old. I'm not sure if I'll install this though as it will probably reset all of my settings.

[Josh128]

I did some FZero GX photo lag tests in 480i and they showed no real difference from the other results (240p and 1024x768). Ill post them later.

[andykara2003]

I did some FZero GX photo lag tests in 480i and they showed no real difference from the other results (240p and 1024x768). Ill post them later.

Cheers Josh, much appreciated - Strange, I would have thought 240p/480p would have less lag as the tv doesn't have to deinterlace...

[Xan]

I've checked for IR recently with the 0 IRE pattern and saw that the panel now turns itself off after about 5 seconds; previously it would continue to glow, even though there were no visible flashing pixels on the screen. Then I've realized that it's due to the changed brightness setting. I've had it on 44 when last checking, which is just one above the threshold where the panel switches itself off (43 or lower, with the other settings I currently have anyway). Sounds like a surefire way to calibrate blacks ideally for component, but really isn't; 42 is needed for both bars in Zelda to appear without dithering, and calibrating against 2 IRE (as recommended in the PLUGE help file) yields 38. Maybe black optimiser is responsible for those variations.

Not sure if anyone even cares about any of this, I mainly write this as a reminder for myself

[22point8]

Is the dithering faint and wavy, or the same you would see via hdmi with brightness too high? It might just be some analog noise.
The turning off on a full black screen has been a samsung 'feature' for years but as you say, it can be defeated by turning up the brightness to a certain level. Black optimiser wouldn't affect the brightness.

My brightness settings are 46 for scart and 44 for component. I set the component brightness with the built in 'expert pattern 1', but I understand the newer models might not have that.

[Xan]

Noise seems the most plausible explanation, otherwise I wouldn't know why the bars in Zelda would have different black levels with 43.

[Josh128]

I've checked for IR recently with the 0 IRE pattern and saw that the panel now turns itself off after about 5 seconds; previously it would continue to glow, even though there were no visible flashing pixels on the screen. Then I've realized that it's due to the changed brightness setting. I've had it on 44 when last checking, which is just one above the threshold where the panel switches itself off (43 or lower, with the other settings I currently have anyway). Sounds like a surefire way to calibrate blacks ideally for component, but really isn't; 42 is needed for both bars in Zelda to appear without dithering, and calibrating against 2 IRE (as recommended in the PLUGE help file) yields 38. Maybe black optimiser is responsible for those variations.

Not sure if anyone even cares about any of this, I mainly write this as a reminder for myself

Im sorry I still havent checked the Zelda issue, but fully intend to, probably tonight. Will try to get to the FZero GX 480i photo tests also.