Fudoh's ode to old display technology

[snoopyj]

Thanks for the password. Restored to the factory set. But still cannot remove the electronic wave on the screen ...

Hope someone could help and give some suggestions

Thanks

[Ed Oscuro]

Does the pattern change if you move the set?

If so, I'm afraid you just learned why shipping can be deadly to this particular quarry, sorry I would guess that some of the aperture grille anchor wires are severed inside if that's the case.

Do make sure the set is degaussing. I'm sure it does, but on the other hand the pro sets do have some strange features.

[snoopyj]

http://bbs.a9vg.com/thread-4408333-2-1.html

pls refer to the picture in my original post.

the image on the screen is interfered

Pls Help to remove the extra signal on the screen.

Thanks

[BuckoA51]

I'm not seeing any pictures in the link you posted.

[snoopyj]

share the download links for the BVM D20F1 service manual

http://elektrotanya.com/sony_bvm-d20f1a ... nload.html

[snoopyj]

someone can teach me how to submit the Image in the post ? I am newbie and need upload the image for the status of my monitor and repair maybe...

Thanks

[alfshusen]

Hello

I am looking for a monitor for retro gaming and I was thinking about SONY BVM-D24E1WU or SONY BVM-D32E1WU.
I understand that the Sony BVM-20F1U is an equally good monitor? I am going to use NES, SNES, SEGA consoles so i don't really need 16:9, but I thought it could be nice to be able to hook up some newer consoles too, since the 16:9 BVM-D monitors are just as good as the BVM-20F1U to handle 240p signals. BMV-D could maybe be an all in one monitor
But almost every monitor i can find on ebay has some issues. Like some sort of discoloration in one or more corner of the screen, and they have about 50 to 70000 hours on them.
What's causing these problems. Could this be sorted out easy with manual degaussing or is it something more expensive going on? Or are they simply worn out?
And are these crt monitors very fragile when it comes to shipping? Can they easily become damaged? If i am going to get one i probably have to ship it a long way.

Need some advice here, since its going to be expensive to buy the monitor and have it shipped.

[snoopyj]

This is original screenshot i took. It's hard to describe what actually it looks like , but the interfere lines do exist with yellow mask.
Pls help to give any idea....

Thanks

[niall]

Can't see any of your pics, but I have a similar sounding issue on two BVM-20F1E's - waving white sine wave lines which are constantly moving. It disappears on one set after 20-30 mins warmup, but the other is permanent. I suspect one of the boards needs replacing, so I'll be swapping them over one by one to try and isolate which board. I'll post a pic of my issue shortly.

EDIT: ok I can view the inline images above if I open in a new tab. Yours looks pretty good - have you got terminators on each of the output BNCs? Problem happens with all sources - other consoles, DVD player etc.?

Here's my issue - lines are constantly moving, underlying source material looks perfect just this interference overlay - mostly white, sometimes picks up colour:

[snoopyj]

Can't see any of your pics, but I have a similar sounding issue on two BVM-20F1E's - waving white sine wave lines which are constantly moving. It disappears on one set after 20-30 mins warmup, but the other is permanent. I suspect one of the boards needs replacing, so I'll be swapping them over one by one to try and isolate which board. I'll post a pic of my issue shortly.

EDIT: ok I can view the inline images above if I open in a new tab. Yours looks pretty good - have you got terminators on each of the output BNCs? Problem happens with all sources - other consoles, DVD player etc.?

Here's my issue - lines are constantly moving, underlying source material looks perfect just this interference overlay - mostly white, sometimes picks up colour:

Thanks for the reply buddy. I don't get termintors on the output BNCs. What it is ? Is it insdie the RGB cable for console or on the decoder card (BKM-48X)? Could you please show me some picture ?

Yes, Happens with all sources & consoles with RGB/Componet 480i/480P signal. (PS3 SFC SS MD DVD Player)

I used to have a SONY PVM 14L5 Monitor, also support multifomat signal, same consoles with same RGB Cable without any problem as the above.

BUT What happen to this BVM Class Monitor ? I really don't undersatand.

Your monitor, it looks like signal SYNC problem. Have you try all consoles ? All Like that ?

[snoopyj]

Hello

I am looking for a monitor for retro gaming and I was thinking about SONY BVM-D24E1WU or SONY BVM-D32E1WU.
I understand that the Sony BVM-20F1U is an equally good monitor? I am going to use NES, SNES, SEGA consoles so i don't really need 16:9, but I thought it could be nice to be able to hook up some newer consoles too, since the 16:9 BVM-D monitors are just as good as the BVM-20F1U to handle 240p signals. BMV-D could maybe be an all in one monitor
But almost every monitor i can find on ebay has some issues. Like some sort of discoloration in one or more corner of the screen, and they have about 50 to 70000 hours on them.
What's causing these problems. Could this be sorted out easy with manual degaussing or is it something more expensive going on? Or are they simply worn out?
And are these crt monitors very fragile when it comes to shipping? Can they easily become damaged? If i am going to get one i probably have to ship it a long way.

Need some advice here, since its going to be expensive to buy the monitor and have it shipped.

The recent post is my own teaching,you can refer that post, I just picked up my BVM-D20F1J from Janpan ( I live in China).Now The Monitor is in bad condition after long distance travel (By UPS Airline)... And I also need someone help to fix....

For my stuff, manual degaussing & set factory defaults I have tried. No USE at all....

E class is better than F class E=900 TV Lines F=1000 TV Lines
Multifomat= 480i 480p 720p 1080i support

[Ed Oscuro]

Nothing that helps with the problem at hand, I'm afraid, but a few points:

E class is better than F class E=900 TV Lines F=1000 TV Lines

Yes, E class is better than F class, but E= 1000 TVL, F = 900 TVL. (Side note: Higher TV lines of resolution spec is "better" for professional applications, but games have an aesthetic component that doesn't necessarily agree with this simple definition.) However, this is only for 20" models. Additionally, some lines that do keep the "F" designation for TVL did not have "E" variants, like the D series. There is a D20F1U, and there is a D24E1WU, but there is not a D20E1U or a D24F1WU (and it makes sense - the physically wider D24 can more easily support 1000 TVL than a regular 20" monitor).

Additionally, there is a big difference between the D series (and the later A series), i.e. BVM D20 (or A20), and the previous BVM series like BVM 20F1U. D series (and later A series) have multiformat capabilities; forum regulars report A series have problems synchronizing to some signal types.

For alfshusen:

BVM D24 should have (edit: actually, there's only a miniscule difference - 100% vs. 104% screen area; the D24 has .2 inches less vertical real estate - not worth getting concerned over), if my calculations are correct, somewhat LESS vertical space than any 20" monitor, i.e. a BVM 1911, BVM D20 (the 1911 is essentially the same thing, but older). I recently played through an Xbox game in a 480i-only PVM and it was pretty pleasant, though the screen is somewhat cramped.

I would not waste time and effort on fancy "Multiformat" monitors like the PVM-20L5 or the D series. You are likely to find old monitors with extreme usage in bad conditions, and on top of that they are easily damaged in shipping. Instead, for retro consoles, consider finding the best 480i television with component, or RGB SCART if you can find such a thing, local to you. If you find i.e. a recent 27" Sony WEGA with component, all you will need a an RGB to component (YPbPr) transcoder, and pretty well-regarded ones are found cheaply on eBay. If that's not "pro" enough, then see if you can't find reasonably priced Sony PVMs, or other pro monitors in 20" near you (not computer monitors, of course). You don't need a super-fine-pitch display for the classic 240 line consoles - a 600 TVL Sony PVM, with a built in "3D comb filter" works wonders on almost any source you can throw at it. I like my PVM-20L2 a lot more than my multiformat PVM for general playing.

The BVM D32E1WU appears to have a reputation for somewhat short-lived CRTs. It will also be immensely heavy, more than double the weight of a late 27" WEGA, which is already close to 100 pounds. And there's no guarantee it will work well with all your equipment.

Good displays for 480p (and similar) and 1080p content are a long-standing fascination of this forum; the long and short of it is that there are probably pretty good solutions available at your local television store. You might have a look at the "plasma bargain" thread to get an idea about a dying technology; on the other hand, current LCD TVs and some alternative technologies look promising also. I don't think there is a hands-down winner yet, but there are many TVs that handle post-480i gaming pretty well.

I would pick a monitor or good 480i TV + flat panel HDTV combination for getting across all of gaming. You don't have all your eggs in one basket, and instead of trying to fit all the required specifications on one hard-to-find-$20,000-when-new device, you can select devices that actually fit the source - and save money and hassle!

[Xan]

Though these 4:3 multiformat CRTs offer the correct aspect ratio for most 6th gen games (nevermind all those vert- 16:9 jobs which I'd mostly avoid anyway). Not everyone is fine with pillarboxing.

[Ed Oscuro]

My post did get complicated, so to make it clear, I'm suggesting that a HDTV is probably good for 480p and certainly good for modern consoles with 16:9 output. For old consoles, CRTs are the preferred solution in many respects.

In other words:
240p and 480i gaming - CRT
480p - HDTV and scaler, possibly some other solutions (gets complicated quickly)
720p and up - HDTV for convenience, price, reliability, etc., though some problems remain compared to an "ideal" CRT. In my most humble opinion, it's not worth the trouble of hunting down a CRT for high resolution content, unless you're talking about a specific situation where a VGA PC monitor can work - a good late model VGA PC monitor is a fine addition to any serious gamer's inventory.

[Xan]

They should have just outfitted all of the 6th gen consoles with VGA and global 480p, then we wouldn't have all these discussions about what to use for 480p. Anyone could just easily find an old PC monitor. It's pretty ironic (and sad) how DC got it right, but was the console that didn't prevail.

It's especially ridiculous with the Xbox if you think about it - it's literally a PC compatible without VGA output.

[Ed Oscuro]

PC CRT monitors actually should get a qualified recommendation because when you start getting into good CRTs that are also large enough for semi-comfortable console gaming, you are left with pretty sizable (68 pounds and up for just 21") monsters with very high resolution specifications - and the last one I had seemed to have a very high inrush current demand (i.e. they trip the circuit breaker; though, on further research, that actually might have been a fault in the otherwise great monitor).

Really, what we wanted were good multiformat consumer TVs. All isn't lost - upcoming TV tech may just be good enough, depending on lag and scalers.

[alfshusen]

Thanks for answers.
I do realize that shipping is not a good thing for these monitors.
As i can read on forums some people have been lucky with the shipping, others not, so its a chance to take i guess.
I live in Norway so there are not many of these type of monitors around, and the monitors I have mention earlier are all located in the US.
However it seems that i might have found one in the UK. A BVM-20E1E. Still it needs to be shipped, but not nearly as far.

The main reason i wanted the BVM-D32E1WU was the larger screen.
I think this one on ebay confirms that the 32" crt's are as mentioned somewhat short lived. By the stickers on the back it seems like the crt was replaced once a year from 05 to 08. Four times! It has 76015hours on it though, but still.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SONY-BVM-D32E1W ... 0668898957

When it comes to hours, some say it matters others don't, and say the actual manufacturing date is more important. What opinion do you guys have?

[Ed Oscuro]

I don't know exactly what picture problems were causing the tubes to get replaced repeatedly. The problem might have been merely for critical viewing, but left the set still more than good enough for most video game content. If somebody here has used a D32 that would be interesting to hear about.

Even for 20", it's a gamble even with shipping to Norway. If you must have one from the UK, see if you can't arrange a special shipping service, like movers that handle antique furniture or delicate items. Just 550 miles (a bit under 900 km) was enough to break many of the plastic supports inside my PVM 20L5. I don't see that it affected the image at all, but I could have gotten "lucky" with that.

Additionally, I would look at any local auction services, and also universities / broadcasting facilities / hospitals any other sorts of institutions that would have used PVMs in the past.

There are other brands worth looking into as well - professional and presentation monitors from NEC, Mitsubishi, JVC, and Ikegami (who I think still sells a few broadcast monitors!) all had worthy models. You should have Philips and other European-based makers to choose from as well.

That said, in Europe you have the good fortune of SCART plugs, so you probably don't need anything fancier than a good consumer Philips, Grundig, Lowe, or similar.

[Xan]

It's important to know that tubes with these specs (save for 1080p24sf, higher TVL spec and probably other minor factors which can be disregarded) were around since the late 80s or early 90s, as part of Sony's HDVS range (cf. HDM-2830), so this was certainly not new technology in the mid-2000's. I too heard about these D32s being troublesome, but a yearly tube swap in four consecutive years sounds just insane, regardless of the environment they were used in. Who knows, maybe it's even somehow related to RoHS, but comparing this to other Sony monitors definitely makes it seem like they had quality issues with this line.

Second all the other points, though I'd add that 14" monitors are probably safer to ship as long as they are packed well. Bar the original packaging, in my experience the best way is to use a box full of foam peanuts, everything else is just asking for trouble. 20" and larger CRTs are also more prone to convergence/focus errors, this never comes up here for some reason.

[andykara2003]

Just to say, always ship monitors/TVs on a pallet - it's much much safer, especially for large monitors. - and not too expensive.

[alfshusen]

Is it only the 32" tube that's been problematic. The 24" is better?

[mvsfan]

Almost every Bvm-D32 ive seen on ebay ( and i look at them a lot) Has had the tube replaced at some point or has other issues like purple spots on the corners of the screen.

I really wanted one of them until i started realizing how many problems they seem to have.

[alfshusen]

How big would the screen be when you run 4:3 ratio on a 24" 16:9 monitor? Would it be smaller than a 20" 4:3 monitor?

[Fudoh]

pretty much the same.

[Ed Oscuro]

I have to agree. Looking over the numbers as given by this website again (and at the little graphic I made up for the 27"/32" size screens from it) -

http://www.silisoftware.com/tools/screen.php

A 16:9 screen at 24" should give you 96.15% of the 4:3 viewing area of a 4:3 20" screen (put another way, if the 4:3 area of a 24" screen is 100%, then the 4:3 area of a 20" - the full screen - is 104%).
The 24" is slightly shorter than the 20" but it's very close - .2 inches.
Makes me want to rethink my dismissal of 24" screens...they're still quite expensive though. And they're also significantly heavier, about 119 pounds (same as the CineAlta BVM-F24U).

Moving up to a larger size things are similar - a 32" does lose a little bit of 4:3 area compared to a 27" but it's not really remarkable. The main loss is flexibility in being able to buy consumer equipment, as the 32" is again very unwieldy.

Whether or not the 16:9 screens make sense or not depends on what content you're going to run on it. I would definitely not waste a D24 or D32, and my back, on 15KHz, 4:3 arcade games.

[alfshusen]

Yeah, I guess it would be a overkill monitor for that kind of use. And if I were to buy a D24 it would most likely come from the US, with a price at 1500 - 1600$ inc shipping, tax and whatever.
But this Pioneer PDP-V402EU, mentioned in the beginning of this thread, looks like an interesting monitor too. 40" in 4:3 ratio looks nice, but i guess the picture in 240p with plasma will be less crisp and more "smooth" compared to a 20F1U.
Where to get hold of one of those? Can't find anyone for sale..

[Ed Oscuro]

Your guess is as good as mine - any old monitors / televisions / panels being found in storage are either going straight to recycling, or maybe being put up on auction sites if somebody thinks they might be worth a few dollars. The only places holding onto these are probably larger institutions that habitually keep things in storage (hospitals, universities, maybe some private companies like broadcasters, but ex-broadcast tend to be in bad shape).

Also, old plasma screens may be in bad shape, since reliability ten years ago wasn't where it is today. I wouldn't buy a plasma sight unseen, or even based on pictures of it running. And even given that, I wouldn't buy one without a good idea how they are supposed to look new.

[tacoguy64]

How comparable are pc crt monitors to the more professional crt monitors like the bvm and pvm? I found a professional sony 21' crt for $80 but i am unsure if its any good for old console games. Especially considering these use a vga connection and would need a vga to scart converter of some sort. At the very least old pc games might look better on the crt than on my plasma.

[Ed Oscuro]

You don't want vga to scart; that's the wrong way around! Instead you'd probably be looking at an older Micomsoft upscan converter, like the XRGB-2, the XRGB-3, or the DISPL (if you can find one and get it to work).

If you want to learn more about how that works out, check this out: http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/XRGB_Wiki

Some of the other devices around might work with a PC monitor, but that's outside my experience.

[Fudoh]

How comparable are pc crt monitors to the more professional crt monitors like the bvm and pvm?

Sony BVM-D24 and the Sony FW900 VGA monitor even use the same tube - just a different chassis. As Ed stated you need a XRGB to run 15khz sources in good quality, so from a cost perspective you don't save anything. Plus the BVMs are easier to handle than a CRT/XRGB combo.