I got a 1CC live on the AGDQ2015 bonus stream! (dojbl 1-ALL)

[mastermx]

I agree with you on that. The strategy sections are really helpful, and in general there are mostly positive responses. From seeing how this thread has developed though, I wouldn't be surprised if people do feel like they have to perform at a certain level. But I am not saying that this is the main reason, it's just a possibility that occured to me.

[PAPER/ARTILLERY]

i've long since been thinking that this community is too casual/scrubby so more elitism would be healthy for this community if you ask me.

This is actually a really interesting idea, considering the shmups farm is often accused of being too elitist. I hesitate to use the 'e' word but Chum may have a point. If western players were less concerned with small victories and genuinely set their sights on WR level scores then it might push forward the level of play.

Yes, I'm fully aware that this can be seen as contradicting my earlier post.

No, I'm not taking anything away from people's decision to play games for simple 1cc (because I do this myself).

[Icarus]

This is actually a really interesting idea, considering the shmups farm is often accused of being too elitist. I hesitate to use the 'e' word but Chum may have a point. If western players were less concerned with small victories and genuinely set their sights on WR level scores then it might push forward the level of play.

When you look at players around here, who can and do achieve great things - like Prometheus, saucykobold, chum, Jaimers, iconoclast, DEL, Erppo, Gus, among a select group of others - we have a set of people who I feel can inspire the rest of us to great things.

But I have to agree with my colleagues when they say things like:

there's zero strategy discussion, when someone gets stuck it's just dismissed as too hard rather than asking for advice and looking for a solution

the criticism i have is that people put too much weight on a 1cc/1-all run compared to much harder things. after all, it is most likely easier to get 100 different 1cc/1-all runs than a single world-class score.

I never considered myself anywhere near the upper-tier, as I feel I am wildly inconsistent, and still lack essential, critical skills in my play. But when, with a tiny amount of effort, my scores sit within the top 5 of most boards here, and at high positions on XBLA, despite the fact that my play within them is generally not sharp or refined, I have to wonder just what is wrong with the rest of us. I do agree with chum in a sense when he says:

with speedruns there's varying levels of skill on display. the fact is that many games just aren't pushed as far, or have lower skill ceilings, making those easier to speedrun "well" compared to the big games. many stg that are popular on here are possibly even more nightmarish than the popular speedgames.

But the way I see it, within the speedrunning community there is a constant exchange of information, and a large majority of players are constantly pushing things forward. Just look at Zelda: LttP or Super Metroid's communities, constantly evolving the myriad of categories with new tricks, and new players coming in and driving competition. In the STG community all I see is a lackadaisical, wholly casual approach to everything, hidden under the excuse of "playing how we want to". I genuinely feel a higher percentage of the community could achieve not necessarily WR, but close to it, if even a tiny amount of effort was spent sharing any knowledge they have, and practicing "correctly" instead of flailing about and calling it "fun".

Sure, it's fine to play casually and call yourself an "enthusiast", absolutely nothing wrong with that. But can you really say you play for score, when your score sits at the very bottom of the global barrel?

I also agree with Bananamatic when he says:

this is bullshit, I play for an hour a day on average as well
focus on one game for an hour a day for 2 years, that's over 720 hours of playtime and that's plenty to learn a game and 2-ALL it with a really nice score
give it 3 years and you'd possibly be GDQ material depending on the game
thing is that people would rather spend that hour arguing on the forums about cave being dead or not and convincing each other that a dojbl 1-all is really hard rather than improving their game

Although I wouldn't have said it exactly in this manner, I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment. I don't believe that time, or the lack of it in jepjepjep's case, is and should be a factor in anything. In three of the past five years, I've been in and out of study, had two part time jobs, graduated, been promoted to 40hrs a day full-time in a job I adore, travelled for weeks at a time, and have spent some number of consecutive months in large blocks not even playing games at all due to study/work commitments. In fact, there was at least one straight year where I was in full-time study - "full-time" for the Degree course I was in was classed as 16hrs directed study for 2.5 days a week - alongside two part-time jobs at the same time, one of those taking up my evenings, and as a result I only ever had perhaps half a day of free-time at the most.

Yet I found the time to play for maybe 1 or 2 hours a week. However, this time wasn't spent flapping around in some random bullet hell and calling it "practice", but spent trying to keep my skills sharp through focused practice, either via save states, training modes, or serious full-run attempts, all with the goal of learning something new each time, or refining past knowledge. Given that my free time is very limited, I'd rather be spending whatever gaming time I have actually doing something productive like learning new techniques or sharpening stage routes, and improving my game, than playing casually and wasting it.

And that's my point here: if even a handful of intermediate players spent their time actually applying themselves correctly and practicing in a more structured, focused manner, the level of play around here would increase substantially. Yes, the Japanese players may play for eight hours a day, but they spend that time actually staying sharp and learning new things. You could attain that same level spending one hour a week practicing in a clear and focused manner. Sure, it may and will take much longer to attain that same level, but at the end, at least you'd be applying your efforts to improvement rather than wasting it down the drain.

And theoretically, if everyone else just posted one small article, or wrote a stage guide for the Strategy Forum, every so often, we'd probably see the number of "how do I do this?" threads drop and the level of play slowly but gradually increase. I can only write so much myself, and I generally only write for games I play, but even then I try to help whenever and wherever possible.

This is already turning into tl:dr so I'll stop the rant here and keep the last bit short.

1. I personally don't care if people are offended by how I've said things in this thread, because everything above is how I feel, and sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind. I have always felt that the Western community has potential, but I am disappointed when all I see is potential squandered.

2. As for the idea of making STG mainstream, I don't think getting STG into a *GDQ would even manage that - we've had two years of Stunfest, and STGWeekly making concerted efforts, but I see no influx. While I applaud DanMagoo's earnest attempts at trying, I feel that he is preaching to the choir - Dan, if you really want to effect change, try aiming your efforts at the gaming press instead. Until the perception of STG is changed within the gaming press as a whole, STG will never become the mainstream juggernaut you envisage.

3. It's not elitism to wish for a better breed of player and a better class of community. It's ignorant and stupid to deny that wish.

Anyway, that's enough from me. I have better things to do. I'm out.

[zlk]

First off, congrats to Patashu on your live 1cc. With that being said, I don't think shmups belong at any "done quick" exhibition. You really can't finish a shmup game quickly. Even if you are playing as fast as possible, the general audience wouldn't notice unless they are very, very familiar with the game. Even then the gap in time would be miniscule. Once I showed some of my friends some DDP videos. These guys rarely ever played shmups but are hyper competitive video game players. Eventually we all made save states of the first loop bosses and traded videos back and forth trying to kill the bosses as fast as possible with no bombing. Even with point blanking as much as possible and doing things that worked maybe 1 out of 100 times, the time differential between playing smart and playing insanely risky was not that much.

Secondly, there are tons of reasons why the level in Japan is way higher than on this forum. The main reason is that arcades in the west are simply dead or don't exist anymore. When I was younger, I would go to the arcade. There were only so many games to chose from. I could go play, watch others play and then try to beat their scores. I could also talk to them live, discuss strategies and see a variety of different ways of getting past the difficult areas. Now, people have thousands of games to choose from and they probably play alone. If no one on the net is focusing on the game you are playing, you are completely out of luck if you want to discuss it with someone. Figuring out something on your own is way harder than if you have a group of people working together. Also in the arcade you have to pay money to play. You probably will pick a game that you can play longer, so getting good at it was more important just to save money. Playing at home you can start 100 credits in no time and not worry about it.

If people are serious about someone from the forum setting a world record in a particular game, they could do what the Donkey Kong community is doing: set up a main web forum for the game, sponsor lots of contests with prize money where people get together and compete and then see what happens. People have been playing that game for years and recently the level of play has improved dramatically. There are also new players joining in on the competition at a very high level. The main issue would be picking a game and finding enough core players to stick with playing the same game for years at a time so that a community forms which would attract others to join.

Finally, I think people should play the games the way they want to play them. Some people want to set world records, some people want to play 100 games for a few minutes each and then move on to the next 100. Personally I just want to complete a game and then move on to the next one. There are simply too many games I want to play through and some of which are going to be insanely difficult for me to complete. I think all forms of playing are valid as long as people are playing. The more people playing the better.

[Blackbird]

Some interesting discussion here.

I don't think there should be as much fixation on "improving the skill level". Not everyone enjoys playing shmups at a high level, because playing for score and playing to complete are entirely different game experiences. In a lot of these games, playing for score means that a single mistake or death means that the game is over and realistically you should reset and start the game over. However, many people don't find resetting the game over and over to be very enjoyable, so they'd rather just play out the run. Some people like the experience of shooting for the top 1%, others don't. There's not any harm in that.

Regarding the comparison to the speedrunning community, I'm not sure I agree with it. I feel like shmups are a lot more "linear" in regards to routing than your typical speed demo game. Again using Donkey Kong as an example, the runs that top players use are basically put together by smaller exploits, bugs, and tricks that the community has put together. This works because you don't have to be a top level player in order to find a strange movement exploit and report it; you just have to play oddly and see a unique situation. On the other hand, it's pretty rare that you can discover a trick in a shmup that lets you "cheat" the game somehow and make scoring easier. Just the opposite - shmups are intentionally designed to minimize the number of ways a player can decrease the risk in the game. Discovering a "trick" in a shmup usually involves realizing that you have the skills to consistently execute a maneuver that's very risky, but marginally more rewarding than the previous strategy. People who aren't experts already can't generally discover these tricks, because they just die instead. If you aren't already good, it's unlikely that you will discover new information that would be valuable enough to add to existing routes.

[Bananamatic]

except people aren't aware of or interested in basic survival strategies that would make the game way easier to simply clear, not harder
i've seen crimzon clover arcade original stage 3 being too hard mentioned multiple times and not a single effort to figure out a route to get past it with relative safety

making stupid decisions and fundamental errors in survival oriented gameplay can be fixed in a few minutes, it has nothing to do with being an expert or not

On the other hand, it's pretty rare that you can discover a trick in a shmup that lets you "cheat" the game somehow and make scoring easier. Just the opposite - shmups are intentionally designed to minimize the number of ways a player can decrease the risk in the game. Discovering a "trick" in a shmup usually involves realizing that you have the skills to consistently execute a maneuver that's very risky, but marginally more rewarding than the previous strategy. People who aren't experts already can't generally discover these tricks, because they just die instead. If you aren't already good, it's unlikely that you will discover new information that would be valuable enough to add to existing routes.

survival gameplay is about minimizing risk, scoring gameplay is about balancing risk and score gain according to your own skill
sadly most players don't care even about the former and would rather repeatedly bang their head against a concrete wall

[Legendary Hoamaru]

Secondly, there are tons of reasons why the level in Japan is way higher than on this forum. The main reason is that arcades in the west are simply dead or don't exist anymore. When I was younger, I would go to the arcade. There were only so many games to chose from. I could go play, watch others play and then try to beat their scores. I could also talk to them live, discuss strategies and see a variety of different ways of getting past the difficult areas. Now, people have thousands of games to choose from and they probably play alone. If no one on the net is focusing on the game you are playing, you are completely out of luck if you want to discuss it with someone. Figuring out something on your own is way harder than if you have a group of people working together. Also in the arcade you have to pay money to play. You probably will pick a game that you can play longer, so getting good at it was more important just to save money. Playing at home you can start 100 credits in no time and not worry about it.

I feel this should be less of an issue now because of Twitch and its popularity. In a way it is basically the "arcade" of this time. Speedrunners regularly answer questions in their own streams/others' streams and are pretty supportive of each other. You can watch them and they can watch you and we aren't limited by our physical location. This could really help push players if we become more active with it.

Finally, I think people should play the games the way they want to play them. Some people want to set world records, some people want to play 100 games for a few minutes each and then move on to the next 100. Personally I just want to complete a game and then move on to the next one. There are simply too many games I want to play through and some of which are going to be insanely difficult for me to complete. I think all forms of playing are valid as long as people are playing. The more people playing the better.

Yea I don't see much elitism in the speedrunning community about folks who aim for Sub-XX goals rather than WR. You don't see speedrunners criticizing casual players and their commitment to the game. Some will move on from game to game, others will be competitive it's the same for every activity out there.

Anyway I do agree with only putting high level players in the main AGDQ streams, as the point of that is to showcase the best. For the actual community though, we should be welcome to all levels/styles of players.

Also very valid points on lack of strategy discussion etc. Guess I have another goal for this year besides just getting better and practicing more lol.

[Blackbird]

Point taken on the lack of strategy guides for basic level survival techniques. I'm actually working on some stuff for that; I have an article aimed at beginning shmup players coming out soon, and whenever I get a better mic I'm going to record a tutorial on the subject.

[chum]

Yea I don't see much elitism in the speedrunning community about folks who aim for Sub-XX goals rather than WR. You don't see speedrunners criticizing casual players and their commitment to the game. Some will move on from game to game, others will be competitive it's the same for every activity out there.

if you only knew

[CloudyMusic]

Yea I don't see much elitism in the speedrunning community about folks who aim for Sub-XX goals rather than WR. You don't see speedrunners criticizing casual players and their commitment to the game. Some will move on from game to game, others will be competitive it's the same for every activity out there.

if you only knew

Yeah, pretty much every hobby on earth has this sort of thing, even niches like HAM radio operators and model builders. People who dedicate themselves to that one thing will always have a different perspective than people who are content with just dabbling in that thing. Neither party is wrong, really, it's just a difference in perspective. I can understand why someone who's played for 20 years and wants a place to share knowledge and compete with other players would be annoyed at the level of activity on Shmups Chat while the strategy and high-score forums are starved by comparison, or the number of people that are content to find the easiest 1cc route through a game and then never touch it again.

In this community, I've almost never seen veterans legitimately being assholes to new players for no reason, despite the claims to the contrary. Saying "if you want recognition, keeping putting in work and earn it like everyone else" is not the same as "you're not a pro after a week? Fuck off and never come back." Don't take things personally, try not to be a dick to others, and just don't worry about it beyond that.

[mastermx]

Point taken on the lack of strategy guides for basic level survival techniques. I'm actually working on some stuff for that; I have an article aimed at beginning shmup players coming out soon, and whenever I get a better mic I'm going to record a tutorial on the subject.

That sounds like an awesome idea. Keep us updated on that.

[Legendary Hoamaru]

Yea I don't see much elitism in the speedrunning community about folks who aim for Sub-XX goals rather than WR. You don't see speedrunners criticizing casual players and their commitment to the game. Some will move on from game to game, others will be competitive it's the same for every activity out there.

if you only knew

I usually only see some heated between emu vs consoles, but I don't visit speedrunning forums so there could be more elitism there.

Either that or I just watch some cool runners who are open to help folks, just like we have helpful folks here .