Surround gaming setup recommendations

[Xan]

I'm looking to get a surround setup for console gaming some time later this year, but I currently don't know too much about the ins and outs of this hardware yet. My main focus right now is on Dolby Surround (4th/5th gen) and Dolby Pro Logic II (6th gen). I'd like to experience those standards as authentically as possible, and my main question is whether I should go with a completely modern setup (new receiver+5.1 speakers), or if there are any differences in how a late 90's receiver would handle these signals. The reason I'm even considering modern gear is for possible future use of Dolby Digital on newer consoles or for movies, though that's not of highest importance for me.

Any recommendations on particular brands or models for receivers and speakers? For the latter, my budget would max out at about $250, though for that I'd already expect some decent quality. It seems a typical price range for many 5.1 systems. And another question, are people just using 2.0/2.1 speakers for games with simple stereo sound, or is there no disadvantage to playing them on a 5.1 set? If there is any unintended upmixing of 2.0 to 5.1 happening on the receiver I'd probably like to avoid that.

[austin532]

I've often wondered about if using an older receiver would benefit older games but I doubt that's true. From what I can tell there really isn't a huge difference between a receiver from lets say the late 90's / early 2000's to modern ones now except for that the newer ones output more watts per channel and support HDMI inputs which comes in handy. Receivers have supported PL, PL II, and DD for years so no need to worry about and old one not supporting them.

As far as brands I stuck with Sony as people claim they sound the best. Whether this is true or not I don't know but from what I can hear they sound sound amazing. Onkyo, Yamaha, and Pioneer also tend to be popular choices. For speakers I chose the Andrew Jones 5.1 setup from Pioneer. Many people consider them entry level speakers but don't let that fool you. These sound damn good for being entry level.

$250 may be a little on the low side if you want a 5.1 setup. Most new receivers alone will cost around $200-$300.

I have yet to decide whether Stereo games sound best in 2.1 or upmixed to 5.1. I guess it really all depends on the game and your taste. Games that only output Mono sound best in 2.1 and games that support PL, PL II, and DD obviously sound best in 5.1.

You have total control whether you want to upmix 2.1 to 5.1 or downmix 5.1 to 2.0/2.1 by using the different sound fields on the receiver so no worries there.

[CkRtech]

Hey Xan,

A few of my thoughts -

1: Sound is extremely subjective.

I don't think you need to worry too much about "authenticity" with sound (post source) the way people might concern themselves with video (to CRT or not to CRT, scanlines, upscaling, etc).

There are two potential arguments here - "real" for source (i.e. emulation vs an actual game system) and "real" for amplification and sound delivery (cables, receivers, wires, speakers). You are asking about the second of those two, and that is mostly an internal discussion for you rather than a forum topic on what is "best."

Could my answers be more nebulous? Possibly.

2: No reason to worry about the technology behind your sound setup.

You could probably find a high quality, mid-range receiver made over the last 10 years, buy it used, and put the money saved toward your speakers. Upgrade the receiver later when you are ready to make the move to newer consoles/movies/etc and can get the max out of your receiver feature set from the retail market at the time. The high end of these things is continuing to evolve (i.e. HDMI 2.0, 4k, 8k, 4k bluray, etc), so kicking back and enjoying a simple used receiver and then eventually jumping up to latest and greatest might help. If sound quality is your primary/only concern, component age (from reliable brands) is not (imho).

I personally haven't encountered any receivers that do the various sound processing styles and do not give you control. You should be able to not do any processing (stereo), throw it into automatic, or designate the various decoding with or without modes (i.e. PL, PL:Game, PL:Music, etc) manually.

I can't personally make recommendations for products in your price range, but home theater forum or avs forum might. I also don't really like the "home theater in a box" solution, but that might be one of your only "new" options for a $250 budget.

If you go the used route, you could always try craigslist or pawn shops just to get the ball rolling.

[Xan]

Great answers everyone, thanks. I think both of you misunderstood my price range, I meant that I'm currently ready to spend about $250 on speakers alone. Definitely not getting any soundbars or other all-in-one products. I'm not including the receiver here for now as I've not yet decided whether to buy new or used. The idea of trying to find a good deal on a used DPLII one for now and investing the rest into better speakers certainly makes a lot of sense, though.

The processing modes in these receivers could be a potential point of discussion as far as "authenticity" (which is always a loaded term as I'll readily admit) goes. From what I gather "game" mode was only introduced with DPLII, and is essentially how these signals are designed to be processed, but what about the older Dolby Surround/Pro Logic games? If a newer receiver offers different options for that as well, you might potentially get different results to a mid-90's unit. This is really just my speculation from not having any experience with the hardware though

[austin532]

Yes, definitely invest money into buying high quality speakers and thick speaker wire (12-14 gauge) as these make the most impact to your setup. Don't worry about spending tons of money on the latest and greatest receiver. Most people can't tell the difference between different receivers unless you are an audiophile as they generally sound the same. Any receiver made after 2000 should support PL II

I had this same paranoid question in my mind to when shopping. I was thinking to myself "Do older DS/PL games sound better in PL mode?" The short answer is no. At least from my experience. PL is an ancient format from 1990 and should not be used anymore. For games that support PL II, I often switch back between PL II which tends to put a little more emphasis on Bass and can actually sound more "authentic" depending on the game or NEO 6 which generally sounds more lively and better overall.

[Xan]

After doing some more reading I'm thinking I should perhaps wait a bit and buy in a higher price range. Currently I'm using Klipsch ProMedia 2.1 btw, and am generally happy with the sound, but I am aware that more expensive speakers do generally give better sound in return.

From what I gather the different impedances on speakers usually aren't an issue with quality receivers, though what I'm wondering about is, is the volume automatically adjusted when using 5.1 speakers in 2.1 mode?

[tacoguy64]

I recently bought a pair of Polk audio floor standing speakers, for $100 bucks and i have been very satisfied with how nice they sound. And for the receiver i have been using a yamaha rv-377. I have a laptop, xrgb mini, and wii u hooked up to it with only one hdmi input to spare.

I have been really happy with how nice everything sounds so far, from my wii u to my genesis, I'm digging the stereo sound. Though i do which i could get some more bass but i have to get a sub for that. Also its nice to have the option to go to 5.1 sound if you play any modern game that makes good use of that feature.

[mvsfan]

Im still using a pioneer 5.1 surround unit i bought in 1996. it still sounds fine to me.

its made in japan and weighs a ton and i dont think ill be getting a new one any time soon.

It sounds great with my games and music and still sounds better than a lot of new systems.

[Xan]

Looking around for some Sony receivers on ebay I noticed many a dead one, seems like the large power draw combined with no active ventilation plays a role here (despite Sony using quality capacitors I'm sure, though that might not be the issue anyway). It's definitely a factor I'm afraid of, having an AVR go like that and potentially take other hardware with it doesn't seem very appealing.

Though I can't say I'm exactly impressed with their current lineup either; the entry-level STR-DH550 lacks all of the controls of the old models (which seems true for all of the current ones anyway), and the reviews on its sound quality are lackluster (though to be fair I'm not able to put that in any context with older higher end units).

I've noticed that Sony seemed to be late with PLII adoption; at least I've seen many models from 2001 which didn't have it, seems strange considering the standard was released in 2000 (and them having a console which supported it too). There were even some later receivers that had PLII but lacked game mode, so there's a lot of reading necessary before attempting to buy a receiver.

[kamiboy]

I jumped onboard the surround sound choo choo train hard once I could afford it. Bought me a good midrange Denon AVR and 5 quality Polk speakers. Front and Back L/R were all towers, tall, big ones, high quality.

Then after a while I realized that the back speakers never called attention to themselves. Not in movies, not in games. After a while I just removed them to avoid the hassle of wires going across the room and never noticed they were gone.

Surround sound is a lot of hype for nothing in my opinion. I'd take a good stereo setup over 5.1 any day.

[CkRtech]

Surround sound is a lot of hype for nothing in my opinion. I'd take a good stereo setup over 5.1 any day.

It is one of those things that has to be calibrated properly. While the stereo experience is simple placement + volume control, a proper 5.1+ setup needs physical distance, receiver distance values, and receiver gain values set properly in order for it to feel like you are sitting in a sound field.

That being said, you should have noticed directional sounds from your surrounds in instances that have them...(i.e. the lobby scene from The Matrix)

[mvsfan]

when i had originally set up the surround i used built in speakers and that solved the whole wire problem.

problem is ive moved since.


i bought all the stuff for the built in speakers from mcm electronics.

[BazookaBen]

Just make sure it supports DD too if you're playing the original Xbox or Xbox 360. And yeah, most receivers made after 2000 should support your needs. I guess some N64 and PS1 games had "Dolby Surround", that would be handled by your receiver when you put it in Pro-logic 2 mode.

Definitely put Metroid Prime on your short list. That has great sound design for that generation.

[Xan]

That's actually my #1 reason for this whole surround extravaganza really GC games for the most part, other ones that should benefit a lot are the Zelda games and Eternal Darkness.

DD would be nice, though I'd need to find the obscure SPDIF adapter for the Xbox and I don't have a 360 anymore. HDMI would be nice too I guess, if I ever decide to get a Wii U... for the PS3, is there any difference between LPCM and encoded surround?

[BazookaBen]

DD would be nice, though I'd need to find the obscure SPDIF adapter for the Xbox and I don't have a 360 anymore.

Just get the Monster-brand Xbox component cable and then this adapter (works for Xbox and Xbox 360 Monster accessories):

http://www.amazon.com/Monster-Cable-Gam ... B000BTICMI



That's what I recently did, though it was only $10 a few months ago on amazon. You might have better luck on ebay.

You can also just use a 2.5mm TRS to RCA cable and hook it into analog SPDIF on your receiver. That would definitely be the cheapest route.

And I haven't done an LPCM comparison with the PS3, though HDMI compatiblity would be worth it given that's how the Wii U and future consoles will connect. Pretty sure that's how you'll have to connect audio for most PC's in the future too.

[CkRtech]

Or, if you are into modding, you can add an RCA jack to the back for digital audio. This is one of the easier game mods out there.

http://www.xbox-scene.com/articles/digital-output.php

[kamiboy]

Surround sound is a lot of hype for nothing in my opinion. I'd take a good stereo setup over 5.1 any day.

It is one of those things that has to be calibrated properly. While the stereo experience is simple placement + volume control, a proper 5.1+ setup needs physical distance, receiver distance values, and receiver gain values set properly in order for it to feel like you are sitting in a sound field.

That being said, you should have noticed directional sounds from your surrounds in instances that have them...(i.e. the lobby scene from The Matrix)

I set it up properly, but from my experience instances where I noticed the back speakers were there were rare. I suppose there is nothing wrong with the technology, it is just not being utilized well by creators. Anywaste, I don't miss surround.

[Thomago]

really GC games for the most part, other ones that should benefit a lot are the Zelda games and Eternal Darkness

Hhmm. I have a Dolby Surround Pro Logic II compatible setup. Pro Logic II compatible PS2 games liky Valkyrie Profile II work perfectly with it, but GC games? I have a bunch of Pro Logic II compatible GC games, but I wasn't able to get anything resembling surround sound from any of them.
Don't know what's going on there. I even tried another GC unit but it sounded exactly the same.

[Xan]

I don't know, maybe others can give their experiences on this? I've also heard a lot of hype about DPLII in Rogue Squadron II (don't like that game though...).

I'd also like to hear if Dolby Surround is even worth it for Playstation/N64 games for instance, I'm not expecting too much here given bandwidth limitations but there should be at least a small effect. Funnily enough when I was looking about surround sound in the Final Fantasy games I found several sources that simply deny that FFVIII and FFIX even support it, despite the logo being clearly on the box (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0208156/trivia, http://www.ign.com/articles/2000/09/20/ ... by-digital).

[BazookaBen]

I have a bunch of Pro Logic II compatible GC games, but I wasn't able to get anything resembling surround sound from any of them.

I know on most GCN games you have to change it to PL2 in the options. Mario Kart and Mario Sunshine give you a little speaker test where the sounds pan around you.

[broken harbour]

I have a bunch of Pro Logic II compatible GC games, but I wasn't able to get anything resembling surround sound from any of them.

I'm having this issue playing Metroid Prime Trilogy on my Wii too.... my receiver say's its getting a PLII signal but it doesn't sound uh... surround soundy at all.

Movies/PS3/Xbox360 all sound bloody fantastic in DD. And I know how to setup my distances/levels, etc....

[Thomago]

I know on most GCN games you have to change it to PL2 in the options.

Of course - it's the same with PS2 PLII games.

[austin532]

I don't know, maybe others can give their experiences on this? I've also heard a lot of hype about DPLII in Rogue Squadron II (don't like that game though...).

I'd also like to hear if Dolby Surround is even worth it for Playstation/N64 games for instance, I'm not expecting too much here given bandwidth limitations but there should be at least a small effect. Funnily enough when I was looking about surround sound in the Final Fantasy games I found several sources that simply deny that FFVIII and FFIX even support it, despite the logo being clearly on the box (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0208156/trivia, http://www.ign.com/articles/2000/09/20/ ... by-digital).

What's strange is that the US version of FFVIII has the logo but the Japanese and European versions do not and for FFIX the US and Japanese versions have the logo but the European version does not. I've heard that the surround sound in Square games are specific to certain regions due to licensing. Japanese version of FFX supports Dolby Digital for cutscenes but US and EU do not.

[Xan]

Right, I always forget about that for some reason. I have both PAL and NTSC versions of FFVIII and IX so I can compare when I have my setup ready.

The royalty issues don't seem like an excuse to forgo surround though as we already know that most of the SNES games that supported it don't have logos either. It's also strange how the SNES Final Fantasy games had surround but FFVII apparently doesn't.

[austin532]

Maybe it does maybe it doesn't. It's hard saying. We can't go by whether it has the logo or not. My guess is no though as it doesn't quite have that "feel" to it and due to lack of space. Plus this was Square's first major Playstation game and I think they were still experimenting with disc based media.

[Xan]

What do you think about FFVIII and IX in surround though? Any difference to stereo?

For assessing which games have surround I think a receiver with PL/PLII detection would be optimal, though I haven't checked if that's commonplace. Apparently on some receivers DPL lights up when DPLII decoding mode is selected and a source with DPL/Dolby Surround is being played.

[chronicdog]

$250 is just too low to get a quality 5.1 experience, honestly if you dont have minimum $500 to spend just use headphones.

Im talking about quality stuff, preferably used. I use ~10 year old Sony receiver I got off ebay for $75, and Athena AS-B1s which were around $100/pair new at a closeout price on ebay, and a used Athena subwoofer which was also around $100, and a 3 way Athena center channel speaker. Overall I feel this is a baseline system (I was in the music studio business for 10 years).

You can spend much much more, but the returns start to diminish rapidly, I think the sweet spot is the $500-2000 range. Saving another $250 and really shopping around is easily, EASILY worth it. Dont bother otherwise.

[Xan]

Yeah I won't bother with these overpriced 5.1 compact speakers that I originally had in mind. I'm probably going to get some affordable Wharfedale stereo speakers soon since they seem to be considered a decent entry-level choice by audio enthusiasts and move all the way up to a 5.1 set later.

[BazookaBen]

Honestly, you can get by with quadraphonic system. Most receivers can mix 5.1 into 4.0 and still sound very good. As long as you're sitting front and center you won't need a center speaker. Once you have multiple people sitting off-center, though, things can sound off.

[Xan]

It's probably better having a 4.0 setup with four identical large speakers than a 5.0 one with two large front speakers, a center and smaller rear speakers. That way the same bass output is ensured on both front and rear speakers. Granted, I don't know how much bass games actually put on the rear channels, it might vary a fair bit. Getting a subwoofer helps in any case, though with that comes the need for proper speaker size and crossover frequency settings (with the latter being especially crucial as I've learned).