Proper VGA to HDMI converter for SMPTE signals

[HydrogLox]

Fudoh has outlined everything in general. I'd just like to add some specific examples. Display: Sony KDL-50EX645 - this does have a VGA input but we can ignore that for know (typically I use a Dell UD2312HM anyway).

1. "VGA + Audio to HDMI Converter" - make sure you get a unit one that DOES NOT SCALE. These units are so cheap that you want to avoid a crappy scaler at all costs - leave the scaling to the TV. I picked up one on ebay as "VGA + Audio to HDMI Converter for HTPC XBOX 360 Gaming PC HDTV Dreamcast Black" back in Oct 2013. With my unit the picture is good, though the audio can distort a bit at times. Currently though my unit has developed the bad habit of blacking out at regular intervals. So you may need to go through a number of units before you find one that you are happy with. Also this solution tends to only work for 480p signals, not 480i or 240p (e.g. no use for a game like Bakuretsu Muteki Bangaiō).

2. "VGA to Component Transcoder". Kuro/Hanzo/Toro combined with an Audio Authority 9A60. The Kuro/Hanzo/Toro will also send 480i and 240p through the transcoder so your TV's capability in processing them is the constraint. On my KDL-50EX645 both Gunbird 2 and Bangaio work in 15kHz RGB mode. There is only one problem though - for some reason the image is shifted to the right and then cut off (e.g. "SEGA ENTERPRISES, LT" - it's cropped where the "D" should be). Probably a result of the weird Dreamcast video signal (e.g. 720x480p instead of 640x480p). If it wasn't for this issue, this would be my preferred setup on a component-only (analog) input system.

3. "VGA to Component Transcoder" + XRGB-Mini. With this combination the picture does not get cut off as in (2) so you can use the Dreamcast in all video modes. However I personally find that the 480p picture quality is inferior to pure VGA, (1) and (2). Now maybe I could fix that by tweaking some settings ... who knows. Currently the XRGB-Mini is pretty much at default settings other than output at HDMI 1080p. There seem to be lots of people that have something (negative) to say about how the XRGB-Mini processes component signals.

4. Toro + XRGB-Mini. This should be my favorite combo but while I have the option I'll stick to pure VGA or unscaled VGA to HDMI. In addition to the (possibly subjective) picture issues from (3) using the SCART connector seems to add a blue tint to the image (clearly detectable on the boot up screen). Now I'm prepared to blame my crappy SCART cable between the Toro and the XRGB-Mini but additional cabling experiments (better SCART cable and/or custom "DE-15+2 RCA to Mini-DIN-8" cable) will have to wait.

[Xyga]

2. Audio Authority 9A60...
...the image is shifted to the right and then cut off (e.g. "SEGA ENTERPRISES, LT" - it's cropped where the "D" should be). Probably a result of the weird Dreamcast video signal (e.g. 720x480p instead of 640x480p).

Sorry if I already mentioned it but I hope you know there's a potentiometer inside the 9A60 that lets you shift the picture horizontally ?
Definitely worth a try.

That aside my main gripe with that solution is the DC picture looks super clean... but squished, result of the actual 568x480 drawing area.

[PearlJammzz]

I just want a good picture that is as free of weird image issues and was hoping my Framemeister gave me some more options. Would VGA to component to Framemeister to TV work or would I be better off just taking the component straight to my TV?

[PearlJammzz]

Fudoh has outlined everything in general. I'd just like to add some specific examples. Display: Sony KDL-50EX645 - this does have a VGA input but we can ignore that for know (typically I use a Dell UD2312HM anyway).

1. "VGA + Audio to HDMI Converter" - make sure you get a unit one that DOES NOT SCALE. These units are so cheap that you want to avoid a crappy scaler at all costs - leave the scaling to the TV. I picked up one on ebay as "VGA + Audio to HDMI Converter for HTPC XBOX 360 Gaming PC HDTV Dreamcast Black" back in Oct 2013. With my unit the picture is good, though the audio can distort a bit at times. Currently though my unit has developed the bad habit of blacking out at regular intervals. So you may need to go through a number of units before you find one that you are happy with. Also this solution tends to only work for 480p signals, not 480i or 240p (e.g. no use for a game like Bakuretsu Muteki Bangaiō).

2. "VGA to Component Transcoder". Kuro/Hanzo/Toro combined with an Audio Authority 9A60. The Kuro/Hanzo/Toro will also send 480i and 240p through the transcoder so your TV's capability in processing them is the constraint. On my KDL-50EX645 both Gunbird 2 and Bangaio work in 15kHz RGB mode. There is only one problem though - for some reason the image is shifted to the right and then cut off (e.g. "SEGA ENTERPRISES, LT" - it's cropped where the "D" should be). Probably a result of the weird Dreamcast video signal (e.g. 720x480p instead of 640x480p). If it wasn't for this issue, this would be my preferred setup on a component-only (analog) input system.

3. "VGA to Component Transcoder" + XRGB-Mini. With this combination the picture does not get cut off as in (2) so you can use the Dreamcast in all video modes. However I personally find that the 480p picture quality is inferior to pure VGA, (1) and (2). Now maybe I could fix that by tweaking some settings ... who knows. Currently the XRGB-Mini is pretty much at default settings other than output at HDMI 1080p. There seem to be lots of people that have something (negative) to say about how the XRGB-Mini processes component signals.

4. Toro + XRGB-Mini. This should be my favorite combo but while I have the option I'll stick to pure VGA or unscaled VGA to HDMI. In addition to the (possibly subjective) picture issues from (3) using the SCART connector seems to add a blue tint to the image (clearly detectable on the boot up screen). Now I'm prepared to blame my crappy SCART cable between the Toro and the XRGB-Mini but additional cabling experiments (better SCART cable and/or custom "DE-15+2 RCA to Mini-DIN-8" cable) will have to wait.

What if you switch the output to 720p? I've found the mini doesn't output 1080p near as well as 720p. All three of the sets I have tried it on at least are consistent in this.

[Fudoh]

I've found the mini doesn't output 1080p near as well as 720p

I cannot agree. What do you find wrong about 1080p ?

The Mini doesn't handle component as well as it does RGB, so *IF* you want to connect a DC to your Mini, then use a RGBHV to RGBs adapter/converter, not a HDMI converter (sampling issue) or component transcoder (processing issue on the Mini's side).

[HydrogLox]

Sorry if I already mentioned it but I hope you know there's a potentiometer inside the 9A60 that lets you shift the picture horizontally ?
Definitely worth a try.

You probably mentioned it but I wasn't listening at the time.
After turning that pot all the way to the other extreme the remainder of the right side came into view. I was blaming the KDL-50EX645 for ditching the last 80 of 720 pixels of each row but this is a reasonable work around. Turns out the 9A60 is an interesting way of getting 480i/240p into the KV27FS100 component input as well (with a Kuro/Hanzo/Toro).

That aside my main gripe with that solution is the DC picture looks super clean... but squished, result of the actual 568x480 drawing area.

To be honest I didn't notice any squishing - not saying that you are incorrect. Your comment made me take a closer look and I noticed that the Border Down planet seems somewhat skinnier when compared to this. But it looks that skinny on my Dell UD2312HM (31kHz VGA) and KV27FS100 (15kHz RGB transcoded) as well. So maybe this is more or less pronounced based on the scaling of the particular display. In my case the transcoded image seems to also lose a little bit of the image at the bottom on the KDL-50EX645.

I was a bit surprised that 15kHz RGB for Gunbird 2 and Bangaio worked transcoded on the KDL-50EX645 - the XRGB-Mini identifies the video signals from those games as 720 x 240p - not something I would expect an LCD TV to support even over component.

I just want a good picture that is as free of weird image issues and was hoping my Framemeister gave me some more options. Would VGA to component to Framemeister to TV work or would I be better off just taking the component straight to my TV?

My personal opinion:

• Don't use the XRGB-Mini for 480p games. So far I have found the results to be underwhelming. Now granted I haven't extensively played with the XRGB-mini settings but that will have to wait until I have more confidence in my end-to-end cabling.
• Do use the XRGB-Mini for 480i/240p games if you want - however:
• My vote goes towards the 9A60 even if it seems pricey - the picture quality is pretty close to a dedicated VGA input (though there may be some "sizing" issues).
• Add to that a Kuro/Hanzo/Toro - that allows you to deliver a 480i/240p signal to your component input - provided your TV can handle it. I'd give this the edge over the plain "VGA(480p) - HDMI converter" solution which doesn't support 480i/240p (even when your set supports 480i over HDMI).
• Get a Hanzo if you would like optional scanline support. Another batch should be ready for purchase soon.
• Get a Toro if you would like to experiment with piping the DC 31KHz/15kHz video into the XRGB-mini. Toro's are available for purchase right now.

What if you switch the output to 720p?

Nope - doesn't hold a candle to straight VGA or transposed VGA into component - in my opinion.

[PearlJammzz]

I've found the mini doesn't output 1080p near as well as 720p

I cannot agree. What do you find wrong about 1080p ?

The Mini doesn't handle component as well as it does RGB, so *IF* you want to connect a DC to your Mini, then use a RGBHV to RGBs adapter/converter, not a HDMI converter (sampling issue) or component transcoder (processing issue on the Mini's side).

The 1080p looks...softer. Not a massive difference but the scan lines dont look near as good on the old consoles either so I rarely use it.

Do most modern LCDs handle component decently? Ill have to test it. My TV has a low-lag HDMI port which I have the xrgb hooked up to and adds another reason to use HDMI. I definitely dont want weird artifacts or anything. Perhaps I'll try that fancy VGA to component adapter and see how it works. Seems to be a crapshoot on how my TV will handle it? I'll have to try my PS2 and see how it goes. I have a JP21 cable and component for it.

[HydrogLox]

Perhaps I'll try that fancy VGA to component adapter and see how it works.

Transcoder, not adapter. A transcoder is lagfree and transforms the signal without affecting the resolution - who knows what all sorts of undesirable things an "adapter" may do ...

I'll have to try my PS2 and see how it goes. I have a JP21 cable and component for it.

Not sure where you are going with this. The PS2 component output has it's own issues so I wouldn't use it in combination with the XRGB-mini (and 31kHz RGB on JP-21 will output RGsB - the XRGB-mini needs RGBs. Fudoh's explanation of how to get the best PS2 picture into the XRGB-mini.).

Now maybe you just want to test your sets component capability - you should be able to test 480p/480i but for 240p you need one of these games - unless of course you have some other specialized means (e.g. Hex code edit).

[PearlJammzz]

Hah my bad. My terminology isnt up to snuff :-p.

I really just want to see how it handles component. Some TVs have absolute horrible lag or tend to just look like garbage. The RGB input will be able to allow me to test input lag vs the Framemeister (probably with DDR). The lag on that low-latency HDMI port and Framemeister is tested and known so I can derive the relative latency with how much I have to offset the input in the options. I think Guitar Hero games can do this too but I dont have those.

That list will help, thank you! Anything special to make sure it's using the 240p mode? Or I can load up King of Fighters 2000 and it'll outputwhat I am looking for? I have played a lot of that on the DC so it'll be a good choice for me to look at.

[Fudoh]

The 1080p looks...softer. Not a massive difference but the scan lines dont look near as good on the old consoles either so I rarely use it.

For scanlines 720p is better, right, but the overall quality (sharpness) is naturally better with 1080p.

I really just want to see how it handles component. Some TVs have absolute horrible lag or tend to just look like garbage

don't forget that component can be 240p, 480i and 480p (or higher), so the question isn't this easily answered....

[HydrogLox]

Some TVs have absolute horrible lag or tend to just look like garbage. The RGB input will be able to allow me to test input lag vs the Framemeister (probably with DDR). The lag on that low-latency HDMI port and Framemeister is tested and known.

Having a low-latency HDMI port is great - but I also have to wonder whether they chose to add one because the TV set implements a fixed rather than configurable processing chain - which is entirely bypassed by that "low-latency HDMI port". In any case remember to set the "GAME" mode (if there is one) just in case it reduces display lag on your set. In any case the XRGB-mini does add about 20ms of lag so that gives the analog processing circuitry in your set some wiggle room.

Anything special to make sure it's using the 240p mode? Or I can load up King of Fighters 2000 and it'll outputwhat I am looking for?

My approach would be to connect the component output to the XRGB-Mini and load the game of choice and then at various points check with the XRGB-mini menu "SPECIAL>STATUS" whether the input signal is 480i or 240p - that should give you an idea which parts of the game you want to use when component is directly hooked up to your set.

Or I can load up King of Fighters 2000 and it'll output what I am looking for? I have played a lot of that on the DC so it'll be a good choice for me to look at.

Not sure whether that is a valid approach - some people prefer the DC versions of KOF - and I don't know whether that relates to the picture quality, lag, etc.

FYI

• If your are retaining any interest of putting DC 480p through the XRGB-mini anyway then you should consider picking up a Toro (with the optional SCART cable) which can output 240p/480i/480p RGBS for the XRGB-mini through the SCART and the VGA jack. This would save you from having to create a CSync circuit (and doing the VGA box RGB mod). Now you seem to have setted on JP-21 RGB, so you would also need a SCART to Mini-DIN-8 cable.
• This post indicates that with an appropriately customized cable the 9A60 (RGBHV transcoder) can also operate as a RGBS transcoder.

[PearlJammzz]

Having a low-latency HDMI port is great - but I also have to wonder whether they chose to add one because the TV set implements a fixed rather than configurable processing chain - which is entirely bypassed by that "low-latency HDMI port". In any case remember to set the "GAME" mode (if there is one) just in case it reduces display lag on your set. In any case the XRGB-mini does add about 20ms of lag so that gives the analog processing circuitry in your set some wiggle room.

Aye, it's awesome. It's really the main reason I bought this TV. The fast port is the only HDMI 2.0 port on the device. The others can get low, but not ~17-19ms like this one. When using this port w/ the game mode feature off makes any characters feel drunk. It's like driving a drunk ship in Radiant Silvergun ha. The game mode can be adjusted per input though so it's easy enough. The HDMI 2.0 port isn't the only one it can be used on.

My approach would be to connect the component output to the XRGB-Mini and load the game of choice and then at various points check with the XRGB-mini menu "SPECIAL>STATUS" whether the input signal is 480i or 240p - that should give you an idea which parts of the game you want to use when component is directly hooked up to your set.

Great idea! My TV also has a 'status' mode that shows what signal is being fed to it. I will check both and see.

Not sure whether that is a valid approach - some people prefer the DC versions of KOF - and I don't know whether that relates to the picture quality, lag, etc.

FYI

If your are retaining any interest of putting DC 480p through the XRGB-mini anyway then you should consider picking up a Toro (with the optional SCART cable) which can output 240p/480i/480p RGBS for the XRGB-mini through the SCART and the VGA jack. This would save you from having to create a CSync circuit (and doing the VGA box RGB mod). Now you seem to have setted on JP-21 RGB, so you would also need a SCART to Mini-DIN-8 cable.
This post indicates that with an appropriately customized cable the 9A60 (RGBHV transcoder) can also operate as a RGBS transcoder.

I think it's because the DC tends to be a favorite for people who play fighters. The DC version has some slowdown that's not present on the PS2 version. Their overall looks and such are apparently pretty similar.

That Toro looks awesome- if I can get 480p and just feed it through the mini like everything else that would be ideal. JP-21 is only used because I got an official Sony one for free. Everything else I have is SCART so SCART is definitely the way I'd go. I haven't decided what's I'm doing w/ the PS2 (SCART vs component) and have no plans to play any games on it for awhile so it's basically just being used as a test bed for things.

Thank you all for your help- I am going to move ahead with the Toro and hook it up to my mini. I'll report back on how she looks/feels!

[E-Type]

1. "VGA + Audio to HDMI Converter" - make sure you get a unit one that DOES NOT SCALE. These units are so cheap that you want to avoid a crappy scaler at all costs - leave the scaling to the TV. I picked up one on ebay as "VGA + Audio to HDMI Converter for HTPC XBOX 360 Gaming PC HDTV Dreamcast Black" back in Oct 2013. With my unit the picture is good, though the audio can distort a bit at times. Currently though my unit has developed the bad habit of blacking out at regular intervals. So you may need to go through a number of units before you find one that you are happy with. Also this solution tends to only work for 480p signals, not 480i or 240p (e.g. no use for a game like Bakuretsu Muteki Bangaiō).

I asked a question on rtings.com about lag with a converter like this. Looking for a second opinion. They said that you ADD the lag introduced with this device with the TV's lag rating to determine the total lag. But why would that be? It's my understanding that one part of lag comes from the converting of analog to digital. If the TV doesn't need to do that (say, if it had a VGA port), wouldn't a device like this "replace" that lag instead of "adding" to it? Granted, the TV will still need to scale the image and apply picture settings, but at least it's not doing conversion work? Or is that not what this device does?

[Fudoh]

The lag for a raw A/D conversion is so low (think of a line or two - that's 0.03 ms) that it's completely negligible.

Memory is expensive, so these external A/D converters keep memory buffer at a minimum.

[E-Type]

Memory is expensive, so these external A/D converters keep memory buffer at a minimum.

Is this good or bad?

The converter I'm looking at claims 43ms lag which seems high. What else is it doing besides converting a/d and is it doing stuff the tv would normally do? (reducing lag on tv end)

[Fudoh]

Is this good or bad?

good because without a memory buffer lag is technically impossible.

The converter I'm looking at claims 43ms lag which seems high.

show us ?

[E-Type]

Sewell Hammerhead VGA to HDMI Converter

This one does not upscale. They have one that upscales for $10 more, but it sounds like HydrogLox doesn't recommend it.

FYI I want to use it with a Naomi as well as Dreamcast.

[Fudoh]

43ms is ricidculously high for a converter like that. I could only imagine that it's based on the scaler design - just with disabled scaling, but basically the same processing path.

You definitely don't want THIS converter.

You are aware that you lose resolution by using a VGA to HDMI converter, right ? That's what this thread was originally about.

[E-Type]

So the (much more expensive) Gefen scaler is the best choice? What would the lag be on that?
Is there a benefit to the VGA>Component>HDMI route? It would seem that would cost twice as much.

Thanks guys. I'm a n00b for sure when it comes to this stuff.

[Fudoh]

So the (much more expensive) Gefen scaler is the best choice? What would the lag be on that?
Is there a benefit to the VGA>Component>HDMI route? It would seem that would cost twice as much.

totally depends on your TV. The VGA>YUV>HDMI path leaves the processing to your TV. The Gefen will take over the scaling process instead. The first option will usually present you with a aspect ratio closer to 1.25:1 than 4:3, while the Gefen will be more like 1.5:1 instead of 4:3.

[E-Type]

OK so I'm going the VGA>Component>HDMI path. I got the Audio Authority 9A60A and my Naomi looks awesome with component hookup. I was bracing myself for letdown but it's great. Perfect contrast levels. So far so good. Then I bought a cheap Component>HDMI converter on ebay because... how complicated can that really be? I just got it and it's DOA. Chinese garbage as usual. Any recommendations for a converter with the same quality as Audio Authority?

[Fudoh]

Any recommendations for a converter with the same quality as Audio Authority?

no, just get another cheap one. Even the more expensive ones are just rebranded chinese crap.

[headlesshobbs]

I think after two years of mulling over this subject, I can conclude it has to do more with the vga signal itself being either too strong or unfiltered. I'm finding it funny that in one of these threads we got a guy talking about making an rgb cable with resistors so he can keep levels under control, when that's EXACTLY what we've been needing for our vga cables in the first place.

Does anyone at Arcadeforge or someplace want to make an adapter or something that allows us to adjust the contrast levels ourselves? It seems the SLG has shown a small trick in it, but I can't stand the flicker, otherwise this generally gets all the color values perfect.

[Woozle]

I think after two years of mulling over this subject, I can conclude it has to do more with the vga signal itself being either too strong or unfiltered. I'm finding it funny that in one of these threads we got a guy talking about making an rgb cable with resistors so he can keep levels under control, when that's EXACTLY what we've been needing for our vga cables in the first place.

Does anyone at Arcadeforge or someplace want to make an adapter or something that allows us to adjust the contrast levels ourselves? It seems the SLG has shown a small trick in it, but I can't stand the flicker, otherwise this generally gets all the color values perfect.

Before throwing a bunch of resistors in a cable, wouldn't it be better to measure the Dreamcast's video signal with an oscilloscope to check for any irregularities? It sounds like the issues here are timing related vs signal level, at least to me.

[headlesshobbs]

Before throwing a bunch of resistors in a cable, wouldn't it be better to measure the Dreamcast's video signal with an oscilloscope to check for any irregularities? It sounds like the issues here are timing related vs signal level, at least to me.

Man I wish I had one of those, but it looks like I'm stuck up @#$% creek without a paddle. (lol reference) But I will tell you this, I've got two different vga to hdmi converters, the ossc, two different dc vga boxes (one is being adapted for 15khz) and several different vga cables to go with all that, PLUS my pc. I think I realized I went a just a tad off topic on my post because I'm currently talking about the over-contrast/white crush issue with vga to hdmi conversion (this is a big subject I need some of you to run tests with) and it looks to me the ossc has taken care of the problem over proper resolution display.