The Future of CAVE in the Videogame Industry

[trap15]

CAVE is dead, PCs were never alive in Japan, etc. etc. etc.

It's not happening, stop asking.

[Squire Grooktook]

Honestly, I don't know why anybody would be all that sad about Cave going.

They made like 10+ excellent games that could be played for all eternity. Unless you really, really, really like the style and just want more remixes of it, than I don't see why you'd want more Ikeda styled games. Especially considering there are just as good doujin releases that aped it.

But honestly, Ikeda's style is played out as fuck right now. I'm hoping future shmups will bring more fast dodging, more rng dodging, more classic style non-bullet hazards and power up systems, and more environmental hazards. Qute is making a new game right now and that's way more interesting and exciting than if Cave were suddenly to announce another dusty old Dodonpachi clone with a tweaked scoring system like all their other non Yagawa games.

Hell, I've had more fun with Aero Chimera's design than freaking SOJ which I spent 80 dollars on. Not sure I'd give a fuck about a new Cave game at this point.

[Necronom]

CAVE is dead, PCs were never alive in Japan, etc. etc. etc.

It's not happening, stop asking.

Who said it's about Japan? Nobody asks them to do the (supereasy XBox to PC) ports themselves. It's not like they had a problem with licencing their games to korean companies in the past...
Look at SNK. Their Steam ports of Metal Slug and KOF are topnotch and quite succesful. Never say never

[MathU]

Look at SNK. Their Steam ports of Metal Slug and KOF are topnotch

Uh no, those DRM-crippled shitpiles are anything but "top notch" and the Metal Slug ports in particular were hack jobs outsourced to DotEmu.

[Pretas]

Who said it's about Japan? Nobody asks them to do the (supereasy XBox to PC) ports themselves. It's not like they had a problem with licencing their games to korean companies in the past...

It sounds like you're thinking of IGS, the Taiwanese company that developed DDPII: Bee Storm as well as the PGM hardware that several Cave arcade releases were ported onto.

[d3vak]

Just admit it guys, you (we) are all sad about this.

*Group hug*

[trap15]

Nope, not sad at all. In fact, I think it's a good thing.

[emphatic]

Nope, not sad at all. In fact, I think it's a good thing.

[brokenhalo]

Just admit it guys, you (we) are all sad about this.

*Group hug*

I'm sad. I could always use a new Mushihimesama to suck at. But hopefully sometime in the near future we'll hear about some badass new shmup from M2, and the phoenix will rise yet again.

Speaking of which, did we ever get anything solid on the cave/M2 absorption? I know better than to doubt Shou, but it's been pretty quiet on the "former cave devs" front.

[Strikers1945guy]

Where on earth is Mr. Yagawa currently

[Squire Grooktook]

Nope, not sad at all. In fact, I think it's a good thing.

Thirded. Do we really need another standard issue danmaku shmup with no rng dodging and no unique gameplay mechanics outside of a tweaked scoring system? I already suck at Ketsui/DOJ/Mushi/Galuda/etc., gimme another slight remix to suck at.

It's almost sad that people are obsessing over the vague possibility that M2 might make some games while meanwhile Qute actually is making games that are both good and unique from the utter avalanche of formulaic Danmaku clones.

[brokenhalo]

Nope, not sad at all. In fact, I think it's a good thing.

Thirded. Do we really need another standard issue danmaku shmup with no rng dodging and no unique gameplay mechanics outside of a tweaked scoring system? I already suck at Ketsui/DOJ/Mushi/Galuda/etc., gimme another slight remix to suck at.

It's almost sad that people are obsessing over the vague possibility that M2 might make some games while meanwhile Qute actually is making games that are both good and unique from the utter avalanche of formulaic Danmaku clones.

lol. "almost sad". guess i didn't get the memo that it's cool to hate on cave now. let's check out the most recent shmups forum top 25 list. cave takes 12 spots. i'll let you look and see how many spots qute occupies. so, keeping in mind that one company is almost half of the top 25, how could it possibly be construed as sad that some people want to see what they do next?

[Lilium]

Hating the most popular thing is always a thing on the internet.

That being said, considering the overall decline in quality of Cave games compared to their golden days, I don't really know why people would want more slowdown infested danmakus that they apparently can't seem to port without adding input delay to them.

There's a lot of good Cave games out already and there's great games by other developers too with enough content to keep most people occupied for years. That is if what you want is actually to spend time with quality shmups and getting good at those. Of course, if you're simply a tourist who's only in it for a credit feed or two then I could understand why Cave's passing is a problem.

[Squire Grooktook]

lol. "almost sad". guess i didn't get the memo that it's cool to hate on cave now. let's check out the most recent shmups forum top 25 list. cave takes 12 spots. i'll let you look and see how many spots qute occupies. so, keeping in mind that one company is almost half of the top 25, how could it possibly be construed as sad that some people want to see what they do next?

Time and popularity causes an old dev with a lot of existing fans to place their huge fucking library over a new dev with only 4 games to their name. No surprise there.

Anyway, that is exactly the reason why its not sad to see them go. Cave had their run, and its clear they ran out of new ideas years ago. Ikeda made a ton of great games which all played nearly the same outside of the scoring systems and now its time to see some innovation instead of Dodonpachi 8: Waifu Death which turns out to be just the last DDP with remixed level design and tweaked scoring.

And I don't hate Cave. They have some of the deepest, most polished, and best presented shmups around. I like Mushi Futari, I like Doj, I like Ketsui, I like Esp Galuda II, and I like Dangun and Guwange (a shame those last two never got any sequels to give much needed polish). But they have polished their general style to perfection, and I don't see it improving at this point in any meaningful way.

Besides, Cave games have certain design consistencies which, quite frankly, kill them for me in terms of "best game ever!!!" status. For example, the almost complete lack of RNG (even in places where it wouldn't effect scoring) in pattern design in most of their games is enough to knock them out of any "best shmup ever" personal placement I might hold. There are other things I don't like about them as well, but the point is that as excellent as their titles are, they aren't the messiah of shooting games and there are a lot of itches their games don't scratch.

I'm not into innovation for innovation's sake, and I'm fine with remixes of level/pattern design for the sake of a new challenge, but there are things I want to see in new shmups, and Cave is the last dev team that is going to deliver them. A new Cave shmup is not going to deliver funky weapon systems or environmental hazards in the style of classic shmups, its not going to have creative unfocused dodging patterns like Aero Chimera, its not going to have shit tons of rng like Touhou, its not going to have over the top "enemy hell" caravan-esque waves like Kaikan, and its not going to have unique melee mechanics like Alltynex Second or Astebreed. Maybe you don't like any of that, and that's cool, but I do and I want to see it polished and perfected, and that's why I don't give a shit about a new Cave title when Cave has already done everything they might possibly do in the future. Even though I did not really like the last game I played of theirs, I'd be more interested if G.Rev were to make a new shmup. At least I wouldn't know what to expect from them.

If they announce Dangun Feveron 2 though, maybe I'll be interested.

[monouchi]

I could have continued with Ketsui 2, Mushi 3, Espa 3, Guwange 2, DDP 8, DS 3 etc etc til the day I died.

[trap15]

Or you could just clear all their current games and go for scores

[monouchi]

Or you could just clear all their current games and go for scores

Im on it!

[Jonst]

I could have continued with Ketsui 2, Mushi 3, Espa 3, Guwange 2, DDP 8, DS 3 etc etc til the day I died.

[Skykid]

They were a legitimately amazing video game company and should be remembered as such.

Their self-destruction is lamentable - with the right management they could have properly reinvented themselves and steered their way to a new lease of life.

But now they're gone the ball is in someone else's court and that's just fine. I hope we're not kept waiting too long for the second renaissance.

[Bananamatic]

Besides, Cave games have certain design consistencies which, quite frankly, kill them for me in terms of "best game ever!!!" status. For example, the almost complete lack of RNG (even in places where it wouldn't effect scoring) in pattern design in most of their games is enough to knock them out of any "best shmup ever" personal placement I might hold

its not going to have creative unfocused dodging patterns like Aero Chimera

that's funny because 99% of everything in Aero Chimera is either static or aimed to the point of playing like psikyo, it has even less RNG than cave does

and rng is shit, period

[Squire Grooktook]

that's funny because 99% of everything in Aero Chimera is either static or aimed to the point of playing like psikyo, it has even less RNG than cave does

and rng is shit, period

And that's why its not a perfect game either (as are the rest of the games I listed there), but the pattern design does move in an interesting direction, actually forcing you to unfocus intuitively to dodge many boss patterns more effectively (and other situations throughout stages), and that makes it unique (even if that element isn't perfect or completely original either). It may not be on par with DOJ/Ketsui/Futari in terms of polish/depth/balance/etc. but it has things in it that make it more than just another attempt at replicating DOJ's triumphs, which is honestly all I see Cave making if they were to be resuscitated.

(Also there's significantly more rng on high rank, and certain boss patterns do have some random elements, though as far as I know not enough overall or significant in a run that I can argue the above statement)

Honestly though, I'd rather have broken unbalanced rng that can harm scoring than no rng at all (Not that that's even necessary, if you design and play test properly). IMO improvisation and using your brain on the spot is the best thing in any video game or video game genre.

[d3vak]

They were a legitimately amazing video game company and should be remembered as such.

Yes. I don't understand why some people are reacting as if CAVE releasing a new game would be the equivalent to get their mothers insulted.

[Jonst]

I miss the excitement of waiting for a forthcoming cave release...

[Bananamatic]

They were a legitimately amazing video game company and should be remembered as such.

Yes. I don't understand why some people are reacting as if CAVE releasing a new game would be the equivalent to get their mothers insulted.

releasing a new game wouldn't be but releasing a port of it as bad as sdoj's would

i'm a cave fanboy but to be honest overall their games are hit or miss
if even the port quality is going to shit lately, it's probably for the better to quit

[d3vak]

releasing a new game wouldn't be but releasing a port of it as bad as sdoj's would

Oh, but you would still buy it...So would I and I am sure many others would too, that's why it is strange to see such a successful company die like this, they could have been the Japanese EA and throw us Dodogpachi (Dodonpachi with dogs) or something. But then again, CAVE never seemed to like money.

Yeah...It is hard to let go. You are probably right and they're better off this way.

[trap15]

CAVE successful, lmao

[d3vak]

CAVE successful, lmao

Well, maybe that depends on the POV.

[trap15]

Not really, they were never successful. They were hanging by a thread since before even Daioujou.

[Necronom]

Look at SNK. Their Steam ports of Metal Slug and KOF are topnotch

Uh no, those DRM-crippled shitpiles are anything but "top notch" and the Metal Slug ports in particular were hack jobs outsourced to DotEmu.

Your blind hatred for anything DRM is well documented. No need for flashbacks here
There's nothing wrong with the outsourced Metal Slug games, they actually play mightily fine. Imo it would be better and more profitable to port Cave games to steam instead of turning them into greedy f2p whores...yes, I'm looking at you Mushihimesama.

[Tregard]

I feel like Cave's artistic flair was beginning to get lost in the chaos of their patterns. Daifukkatsu is the last game of theirs that I played, and there isn't a single boss or stage that really stands out to me. The bosses themselves just didn't seem to have any gravitas to them, they were just nondescript mechanical shapes spewing out death. Contrast them with the beautiful, intricate designs from Garegga, or the epic bombast of a Darius boss encounter, or even Cave's earlier work like the helicopter from stage 1 of Ketsui, rising out of the stadium.

I understand that for these games to succeed the mechanics and scoring need to come first - and its these elements that would make or break a game within the community - but as someone who got into the genre through an appreciation of their aesthetics* I can't help but feel their recent games have been lacking something.

*mainly because that's all I have to cling on to, given that I suck at these games