12th Annual Top 25 Pre-Discussion Thread

[Nifty]

I've delayed starting this a little while I gather some information, but now that the bulk of that's done I can put this up.

(Cave) Game combining/separating
Revisited as a result of some discussion that took place last year. This could involve combining DFK 1.5 and BL, leaving it as it is, or moving in the opposite direction and reevaluating what should be separated (which I've also been putting thought into). All three are flawed, so disappointment is sure to abound :v I would like to get a feel for whether there is a general preference or not before I make any rulings. Note that I'll pay far more attention to discussion if it's amiable.

Top developers
Running extra top lists through the year was an idea that isn't going to pan out, buut there is one more I'd be interested in trying. The dev breakdowns in the regular T25 results are of little use and barely change from year to year. A proper vote would be much more involving! I'd like to run this alongside the T25, using a slightly different setup. The votes will be ordered lists, with a minimum of 6 and maximum of 20 entries. Points would be assigned based on the position and scale down based on list size, with larger point gaps at the top. Among other things, this will save on calulcation hassle and let me try out something a little bit different.

I'll let this go for probably a couple of days. Don't want to wait too long to get to the interesting part

[Bananamatic]

1.5 and BL are way too different to combine them imo

[nasty_wolverine]

1.5 and BL are way too different to combine them imo

exactly, games which are similar but has tweaks should be grouped together, games with completely different gameplay should be kept separate. So grouping DOJ WL/BL makes sense but not DFK 1.5/BL.

[trap15]

1.5 and BL are way too different to combine them imo

exactly, games which are similar but has tweaks should be grouped together, games with completely different gameplay should be kept separate. So grouping DOJ WL/BL makes sense but not DFK 1.5/BL.

Seconding this.

Not sure what you're thinking about for the Top Developers, but one thing I've always liked about the Top Games is how you assign a weighting so you can put one game significantly higher than another despite being one place away. I do like the sound of a Top Developers vote though.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

DOJ BL even includes WL as an option anyway before the game starts.

DOJ WL/BL are similar enough.

DFK 1.5/BL are extremely different.

What about Ibara and Ibara Kuro? Not that I'd be picking it as I haven't played either.

What about ESPGaluda II and its Black Label? I consider them different enough, but I don't know what others would think.

[Eaglet]

Tbh the only game really worth combining is DOJ.
The others, even the ones with the "least" differences (Futari BL and Mushi 1,5) feature gameplay that is completely different from each other.
Just let people vote for whichever game they actually fancy.

[DestroyTheCore]

...Yet Akai Katana and Akai Katana Shin are considered the same game in the poll.

[Strikers1945guy]

DOJ BL even includes WL as an option anyway before the game starts.

DOJ WL/BL are similar enough.

DFK 1.5/BL are extremely different.

What about Ibara and Ibara Kuro? Not that I'd be picking it as I haven't played either.

What about ESPGaluda II and its Black Label? I consider them different enough, but I don't know what others would think.

Ibara & Kuro are WAY different.

The bad part is that with all this we run into the argument that we should also include arrange modes and stuff? Im not pushing for this though. I understand that these games can be worlds apart as far as scoring and mechanics go but I feel that it would still be better to group them together. if half the poll is

deathsmiles
deathsmiles mbl
futari 1.5
futari bl
ddpdoj
ddpdoj bl

It really doesnt leave much room for anything else...

[louisg]

Yeah, we should group whenever possible. Maybe we should have one entry for some of these, but then put in parenthesis how many of those were for the arrange mode and how many for the main mode..?

[nasty_wolverine]

Group when modes were released as upgrades, and seperate when they released as seperate games.
Like how DFK BL was essentially marketted as a seperate game, AK and AKS are separate games one for arcades one only has home version. Isnt the mushi futari games all updates to the same game or were the seperate boards released for them? Also, Ibara and Ibara kuro were released as seperate game i think, arrange mode should be grouped into kuro.

[louisg]

We do have it kind of easy. I can't imagine a top list on a fighting game forum, when every game has about 50 separate incarnations

[BulletMagnet]

Maybe we should have one entry for some of these, but then put in parenthesis how many of those were for the arrange mode and how many for the main mode..?

I'm half-tempted to second this...

[nosorrow]

Maybe we should have one entry for some of these, but then put in parenthesis how many of those were for the arrange mode and how many for the main mode..?

I'm half-tempted to second this...

I do, otherwise it becomes way too complicated/convoluted.

[chempop]

Yeah, we should group whenever possible. Maybe we should have one entry for some of these, but then put in parenthesis how many of those were for the arrange mode and how many for the main mode..?

Great idea. I’ve usually been in favor of grouping all versions together or leaving CAVE out of the voting all together.

[professor ganson]

Glad to hear the tradition continues. Will need to work on my list asap.

[Nifty]

Ibara and Kuro are already separated. The more obscure labels & arranges I will evaluate as they turn up, which doesn't happen very often. The only noteworthy games I would currently separate are Akai Katana and AK Shin, and Pink Sweets and PS Arrange, which should bring everything nicely in line with the rest of the results and their history. I will not be taking apart Futari again, between 1.5 and BL it was getting huge amounts of voting crossover and unnecessarily pushing down other games in the process.

Not sure what you're thinking about for the Top Developers, but one thing I've always liked about the Top Games is how you assign a weighting so you can put one game significantly higher than another despite being one place away. I do like the sound of a Top Developers vote though.

If that wasn't clear enough, I'll give an excellent example of what a vote might look like:
1. Dooyong
2. Afega
3. Seta
4. Comad
5. ESD
6. Omori

Six devs seems like an acceptable minimum, but it would screw with the weighting (can't even go [6] to [1] without breaking the 25% rule) and while individual games are one thing it's harder to justify large weight gaps between entire game libraries. Like I said, I'd prefer to keep it simple.

On that note, to avoid the nightmare that is distinguishing between developers and publishers, I've been putting together a reference list. Trying to include everything would be an equal nightmare, so I have limited it to arcade and console developers that have more than two or three games of some note, omitting some of the best-known or very recent ones to save a little time, along with a couple of the more prolific/long-standing doujin devs. Both the games and developers are ordered roughly in chronological order, based on first release. The result remains an exhaustive record of games nobody has seen for 30 years:

Spoiler

Taito - Space Invaders, Space Invaders Part II/Space Invaders Deluxe, Balloon Bomber, Fire Battle, Metal Soldier Isaac II, Wyvern F-0, Halley's Comet, Scramble Formation/Tokio, KiKi KaiKai, Darius, Exzisus, Fighting Hawk, Syvalion, Master of Weapon, Halley Wars, Darius II/Sagaia, Insector X, Mega Blast, Super Space Invaders '91/Majestic Twelve, Gun Frontier, Darius Twin, Metal Black, Grid Seeker: Project Storm Hammer, Darius Force/Super Nova, RayForce/etc, Darius Gaiden, Space Invaders '95/Akkanvader, Gekirindan, RayStorm, G-Darius, RayCrisis, Space Invaders Extreme (?), Space Invaders Infinity Gene, Space Invaders Extreme Z

SNK - Ozma Wars/Space Phantoms, Sasuke vs. Commander, Satan of Saturn, Vanguard, Vanguard II, Mad Crasher, HAL 21, ASO - Armored Scrum Object/Alpha Mission, TANK, Ikari Warriors, Victory Road (Ikari II), Bermuda Triangle, Guerrilla War, Chopper 1/Koukuu Kihei Monogatari, Prehistoric Isle in 1930, The Next Space, Ghost Pilots, Alpha Mission II, Last Resort

Namco - Galaxian, King & Balloon, Bosconian, Galaga, Xevious, Gaplus, Super Xevious, Sky Kid, Sky Kid Deluxe, Dragon Spirit, Galaga '88, Assault (borderliner), Ordyne, Metal Hawk, Phelios, Blast Off, Dangerous Seed, Pistol Daimyo no Bouken, Dragon Saber, Cosmo Gang: The Video, Fighter & Attacker/ F/A, Nebulas Ray, Xevious Arrangement, Xevious 3D/G

Atari - Asteroids, Space Duel, Missile Command, Centipede, Tempest, Gravitar, Millipede, Black Widow, Solaris, Blasteroids

Data East - Astro Fighter, Space Fighter Mark II, Highway Chase/Mad Alien, Terranean, Astro Fantasia, Super Astro Fighter, Tornado, Explorer, Mission-X, Night Star, Zaviga, B-Wings, Liberation/Dual Assault, Gekitsui Oh/Zero Target, Break Thru, Darwin 4078, Last Mission, Makyou Senshi/Gondomania, Wonder Planet, SRD : Super Real Darwin, Heavy Barrel, Cobra Command, Kuhga - Operation Code Vapor Trail, Darwin 4081, Boogie Wings, Skull Fang

Nintendo - Space Fever, Sheriff, Radar Scope, Helifire, Space Firebird/Space Demon, Solar Striker

Midway - Space Invaders II, Gorf, Omega Race, Sinistar, Smash TV, Strikeforce

Williams/Vid Kidz - Defender, Stargate, Robotron 2084, Blaster (borderliner)

Nichibutsu - Moon Cresta, (About five other shooters with Moon in the title), Radical Radial, SF-X, Tube Panic, Seicross/Sector Zone, Mag Max, Terra Cresta, Ninja Emaki, UFO Robo Dangar, Soldier Girl Amazon, Legion, Terra Force, Formation Armed F (?), Sky Robo, Terra Cresta II

Irem - Sky Chuter, UniWar S, Demoneye-X, Moon Patrol, Horizon, R-Type, Mr. Heli no Daibouken/Battle Chopper, Image Fight, Dragon Breed, X-Multiply, R-Type II, Air Duel, Gallop - Armed Police Unit/Cosmic Cop, Thunder Blaster/Lethal Thunder, Mystic Riders, R-Type Leo, In The Hunt, Fire Barrel, R-Type III: The Third Lightning, R-Type Delta, R-Type Final

Sega - Space Attack, Space Trek, N-Sub, Carnival, Astro Blaster, Space Odyssey, Borderline, Space Fury, Tac/Scan, Zaxxon, Super Zaxxon, Buck Rogers: Planet of Zoom (borderliner), Commando, Regulus, Star Blazer, Star Jacker, Future Spy, Repulse, Choplifter, Fantasy Zone, Action Fighter, Rambo: First Blood Part II/Secret Commando, Fantasy Zone II: The Tears of Opa-Opa, S.D.I.: Strategic Defense Initiative, Sonic Boom, Scramble Spirits, Bio-Hazard Battle/Crying, Thunder Force VI (?)

Konami - The End, Scramble, Super Cobra, Pooyan, Time Pilot, Mega Zone, Gyruss, Juno First, Time Pilot '84, Twinbee, Gradius, Finalizer: Super Transformation, Salamander/Life Force, Stinger, Battlantis, Flak Attack/MX5000, A-Jax/Typhoon, Nemesis 2/Nemesis '90 Kai, Gradius II: Gofer no Yabou, Parodius (MSX), Thunder Cross, Nemesis 3: The Eve of Destruction, Twinbee 3, Space Manbow, Gradius III, Parodius Da!, Trigon/Lightning Fighters, Detana!! TwinBee/Bells & Whistles, Thunder Cross II, Gradius: The Interstellar Assault/Nemesis II, Crisis Force, Xexex, Pop'n TwinBee, Axelay, Gokujou Parodius, TwinBee Yahho!, Jikkyo Oshaberi Parodius, Salamander 2, Gradius Gaiden, Gradius IV, Gradius Galaxies/etc, Otomedius, Otomedius Excellent!

Tecmo/Tehkan - Pleiads, Red Clash, Star Force, Gemini Wing, Back Fire, Silk Worm, Raiga - Strato Fighter, Final Star Force, Eight Forces (?)

Jaleco - Exerion, Exerion II: Zorni, Formation Z/Aeroboto, Exerizer/Sky Fox, Plus Alpha, E.D.F.: Earth Defense Force, Chimera Beast, Cybattler, Game Tengoku, Gratia - Second Earth

UPL - Nova 2001, Return of the Invaders, XX Mission, Atomic Robo-Kid, Omega Fighter/Omega Fighter Special (?), Bio-Ship Paladin, Acrobat Mission, Koutetsu Yousai Strahl

Seibu - Stinger, Scion, Air Raid/Cross Shooter, Raiden, Raiden II, Raiden DX, Raiden Fighters, Raiden Fighters 2, Raiden Fighters Jet

Capcom - Vulgus, 1942, Exed Exes/Savage Bees, Gun.Smoke, Section Z, Legendary Wings (half-STG), Side Arms Hyper Dyne, 1943: The Battle of Midway, 1943 Kai, Last Duel, Forgotten Worlds/Lost Worlds, Area 88/UN Squadron, 1941: Counter Attack, Carrier Air Wing/U.S. Navy, Three Wonders: Chariot, Varth: Operation Thunderstorm, Eco Fighters, 19XX: The War Against Destiny

Alpha Denshi/ADK - Equites, Super Stingray, Battle Field/Time Soldiers, Sky Soldiers, Sky Adventure, Ninja Commando, Twinkle Star Sprites

Toaplan/Crux - Gyrodine, Tiger Heli, Slap Fight/Alcon, Hishouzame/Flying Shark, Twin Cobra/Kyukyoku Tiger, Tatsujin/Truxton, Hellfire, Twin Hawk/Daisenpu, Zero Wing, Fire Shark/Same! Same! Same!, Out Zone, Vimana, Tatsujin Oh/Truxton II, Fixeight, Dogyuun, V-Five/Grindstormer, Batsugun

Technosoft - Thunder Force, Thunder Force II, Thunder Force III, Elemental Master, Thunder Force IV, Hyper Duel, Blast Wind, Thunder Force V

Compile - Zanac, Guardic (MSX), The Guardian Legend/Guardic Guardian, Aleste/Power Strike, Aleste Gaiden, Blazing Lazers, Aleste II, Gun-Nac, Musha Aleste/M.U.S.H.A, Seirei Senshi Spriggan, GG Aleste, Spriggan Mark 2: Re-Terraform Project, Super Aleste/Space Megaforce, Robo Aleste, GG Aleste II, Power Strike II, Sylphia, Rude Breaker, Zanac Neo

Kaneko/Inter State - Go Go Mr. Yamaguchi (borderliner), Dr. Toppel's Tankentai, Heavy Unit, Air Buster, Super Star Soldier, Star Parodier, Nexzr, Explosive Breaker/Bakuretsu Breaker, Cyvern: The Dragon Weapons

NMK - Argus, Valtric, P-47: The Freedom Fighter, Saint Dragon, Task Force Harrier (?), USAAF Mustang/Fire Mustang, Black Heart, Thunder Dragon, Hacha Mecha Fighter, Super Spacefortress Macross, GunNail, Super Spacefortress Macross II, Thunder Dragon 2/Big Bang, Rapid Hero, Zed Blade/Operation Ragnarok, P-47 Aces, Desert War

Hudson - Star Soldier, Adventures of Dino Riki, Final Soldier, Soldier Blade, Vertical Force, Star Soldier: Vanishing Earth, Star Soldier (PSP), Star Soldier R

Seta - Thundercade, Twin Eagle: Revenge Joe's Brother, Arbalester, Meta Fox, Twin Eagle II : The Rescue Mission, Ultra X Weapons

Video System Co. - Rabio Lepus, Turbo Force, Aero Fighers, Aero Fighters 2, Aero Fighters 3, Sonic Wings Special, Sonic Wings Limited

Athena - Caliber .50, Strike Gunner S.T.G, BioMetal, Daioh, Dezaemon (SNES), Dezaemon 2, Dezaemon 3D, Dezaemon Kids!

Visco - Asuka & Asuka, Ashura Blaster, Andro Dunos, Galmedes, Earth Joker: U.N. Defense Force, Storm Blade, Captain Tomaday, Vasara, Vasara 2

Natsume - Abadox (?), S.C.A.T./Final Mission, Pocky & Rocky, Pocky & Rocky 2, Omega Five

Dooyong - The Last Day, Gulf Storm, Pollux, Flying Tiger, Blue Hawk, R-Shark

Alfa System - Cyber Core, Download, Sinistron, Psychic Storm, Kiaidan 00, Shikigami no Shiro, Shikigami no Shiro II, Shikigami no Shiro III

Masaya/NCS - Gynoug/Wings of Wor, Gleylancer, (most of) the Cho Aniki series

Success - Cotton: Fantastic Night Dreams, Cotton 100%, Cotton 2, Guardian Force, Cotton Boomerang, Sanvein

Allumer - Rezon, Zing Zing Zip, SD Gundam Neo Battling, War of Aero, Mad Shark

Aicom/Yumekobo - Viewpoint, Pulstar, Blazing Star, Prehistoric Isle 2

Triangle Service/etc - Project Moon, G-Stream G2020/DeltaZeal, XII Stag, Trizeal, Exzeal, CombatZeal

Takumi - Twin Cobra II/Kyukyoku Tiger II, Giga Wing, Mars Matrix, Giga Wing 2, Night Raid, Giga Wing Generations

Warashi - Shienryu, Sengeki Striker, Shienryu Explosion, Triggerheart Exelica

Treasure - Radiant Silvergun, Bangai-O, Ikaruga, Gradius V, Bangai-O Spirits, Bangai-O HD: Missile Fury

G.rev - Border Down, Senko no Ronde, Under Defeat, Senko no Ronde: DUO, Seisou Kouki Strania, Kokuga

Milestone/Klon - Chaos Field, Radirgy, Karous, Illvelo, Radirgy Noa, Karous: The Beast of Re:Eden, Radirgy de Gojaru!, Illvelo Dillinjah

-----

Siter Skain - Raid Wind, Alltynex, Kamui, RefleX, Alltynex 2nd

Kenta Cho/ABA Games - I'm just going to link these: http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~cs8k-cyu/games/ Also this

X.X - Green Wind, Blue Wish, Eden's Edge, Blue Wish Resurrection/BWR Plus, Eden's Aegis

Hopefully, if something looks as though it's missing, it's because I've found another dev name than the company it's commonly associated with. Having said that I've probably missed or misplaced something somewhere in there. It doesn't help that the sites I've been cross-referencing often don't have the same information. The only two I'm not sure whether to merge or not are Athena and Warashi; I know the latter came from the Daioh dev team, but Athena made a number of other games and perhaps more to the point continued to create the Dezaemon series after Warashi was formed. Anyway, it's ultimately going to be up to individuals to keep track of obscure or oddball devs. I think I'll ask voters to help me out as they go, by either asking who made what or giving developer details in their post.

[trap15]

Moon Cresta, Terra Cresta, Meta Fox, and Arbalester (maybe some others on the list, those ones jump out at me) are all developed by Jorudan. Dunno if it matters, but worth noting.

I get what you mean about the weighting, but, for a real example, I'd probably put NMK and Raizing at nearly the same spot, followed quite a bit further down with Toaplan. For a percentage example, 40% NMK, 35% Raizing, 10% Toaplan, 8% Psikyo, 5% UPL, 2% CAVE. I dunno, I just think an ordered list isn't the right format for a rating.

[Nifty]

Hmm, if that's so, how about Nichibutsu's other similar games like UFO Robo Dangar? What's your source?

[system11]

Actually - ho hum. What to do when a vote applies to DFKBL from a PCB owner, but someone else votes DFK which includes the DFKBL mode, and that's why they voted for it. On long reflection, I think where a port offered all modes rolled up, that game should have all versions bundled.

In practise that's probably all the Cave games except Ibara.

[Bananamatic]

Actually - ho hum. What to do when a vote applies to DFKBL from a PCB owner, but someone else votes DFK which includes the DFKBL mode, and that's why they voted for it. On long reflection, I think where a port offered all modes rolled up, that game should have all versions bundled.

In practise that's probably all the Cave games except Ibara.

i'm pretty sure anyone who actually cares about such a poll is fully aware that the port is 2 separate games and views it as such

[trap15]

Hmm, if that's so, how about Nichibutsu's other similar games like UFO Robo Dangar? What's your source?

I think it's just the two Cresta games. Go to GDRI's page on Jorudan or Nichibutsu.

[jasoncslaughter]

I'm in favor of grouping versions when possible, but either way it needs to be consistent.

[Mortificator]

A "top developer" vote is super fanboyish. I'm cringing even thinking about it.

[BulletMagnet]

Dumb question, but would this vote also include doujin/amateur developers, or only "professional" ones? If the former, certain talented forum members might well wind up on the list, heh.

[Strikers1945guy]

Dumb question, but would this vote also include doujin/amateur developers, or only "professional" ones? If the former, certain talented forum members might well wind up on the list, heh.

I would prefer maybe a separate poll for doujin stuff... looking at the last poll half the people just voted for like 25 touhou games. If thats what you like thats fine but it seems to make the list that much more... I don;t know.

Is this poll going to be coming in the near future or is this for like way in the future btw?

[Nifty]

I think it's just the two Cresta games. Go to GDRI's page on Jorudan or Nichibutsu.

I see Moon Cresta, but there's no Terra Cresta on the Jorudan page and no Nichibutsu page to compare. That aside, I will make these changes next time I update the dev list.

Dumb question, but would this vote also include doujin/amateur developers, or only "professional" ones? If the former, certain talented forum members might well wind up on the list, heh.

Any developer or development team should be alright, as they would appear in regular T25 voting.

Is this poll going to be coming in the near future or is this for like way in the future btw?

I'll be starting the main T25 as soon as I have the details ironed out here. For the top devs voting I might wait a further week or so.

[Nifty]

Very well, at this point it looks as though I'll be taking the adjusted-separations route. I'll attempt to have the voting thread up later today.

[pegboy]

What about games where the console port is vastly different than the arcade version? Example: UN Squardon, Gradius III, Salamander, etc?

[Squire Grooktook]

Dumb question, but would this vote also include doujin/amateur developers, or only "professional" ones? If the former, certain talented forum members might well wind up on the list, heh.

I would prefer maybe a separate poll for doujin stuff... looking at the last poll half the people just voted for like 25 touhou games. If thats what you like thats fine but it seems to make the list that much more... I don;t know.

Yeah because 10 Cave games in a row would be so much better.

[Nifty]

What about games where the console port is vastly different than the arcade version? Example: UN Squardon, Gradius III, Salamander, etc?

Those have already been accounted for. Check out some of the full results from previous years if you want to get an idea of what's being altered.